Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

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Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Just to have my two cents worth....

In my opinion too many young English bowlers are first coached with basic biomechanics first,(i.e. run-up, front arm....) and not allowed to bowl naturally. Other nations allow bowlers to be natural and then they are fine-tuned with biomechanics. This is why other nations produce bowlers like Imran Khan, Lasith Malinga, Shaun Tait, Jeff Thompson - bowlers who dont have text book actions.

I personally think biomechanics should be used only as a tune-up - and its wrong for bowlers to obey Ian Ponts bible without having first established an action of their own, which they are happy with.

I also believe that the Art of fast bowling is dying - I think 'Swinger' makes a good point when he says the following things need more empahisize by coaches.

1- accuracy
2- how to bowl if it doesnt swing
3- swing and reverse swing
4- slower ball techniques
5- cross seam option
6- accelerated learning
7- mental approach

If those aspects are not worked on, you'll have plenty of bowlers at international level bowling 90mph+, but still getting tonked and dispatched.

Bowlers like Walsh, McGrath, Akram, Hadlee, Kapil Dev and Ambrose didnt necessary tick all the boxes in terms of biomechnics and werent rapid, but they made up for it, by using swing, seam, accuracy and craft.

I think more emphasize should be put on what you bowl(swing,seam....) and not so much on how its bowled(bowling action)...
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I agree that accuracy and things like that should be focused on but, most often, the coaches route to doing this would be to change a bowler from a round arm action, or correct it if he was falling away in his action for example. People don't go looking to change an action just for the hell of it, there is some underlying problem that is addressed in this manner. Occaisionally higher level coaches, for example Ian Pont, may look to make minor changes to an action to increase how well it works, but I woudln't think that this was 'changing an action' in a major way.

I think that the best way of 'coaching' bowling is how they've done it for me at my club: watch you bowl and suggest something to think about or focus on every so often. For example, think about getting your left arm coming through all the time or making sure you're properly side on, leading right up to Ian's stuff.

I'm not saying that wholesale changes to actions are good, but that biomechanics does have its place in modern coaching.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Firstly im not taking a single thing away from Ian Pont - im talking more about a general issue: that sports science and to a lesser extent biomechanics is NOT the way to go to make better players, the focusing on cricket skills IS.

My point is that when people talk about improving these days the focus is more on biomechanics and sport science : things like " alignment and core strength ect" - i think cricket coaching should be about skills first and sports science second. I dont see the need for sports scientists and biomechanists to DOMINATE cricket coaching- and it seems they do e.g look at the whole england back room staff .CRICKET IS NOT BEHIND OTHER SPORTS BECAUSE IT DOESNT EMBRACE SPORTS SCIENCE AS MUCH OF OTHERS. The execution of cricket SKILLS are the far most important keys to success in the sport. Sport science has not contributed anything new to the cricket skills which win matches - and if it has it has not been major. Sport science may teach us how to train better, run faster and for longer, become stronger and more powerful but that will always be second to the cricket coaches who show us how swing the ball more, bowl more accuratly, move the ball off the seam, how to bowl a slower ball ect

If you want to be become a better bowler are you gonna ask: a successful bowler or a sports scientistor a biomechanist who doesnt play the game. The pakistanis are the original masters of reverse swing- a deadly skill which wins cricket matches- did sport science teach them this? NO. Shane warne is argubly the greatest bowler who ever lived- a master of the ART of leg spin ( spin, drift, flight, change of pace, accuracy, loop ect) how much did sport science contribute to his success- zilch- it was his skills that made him the best- Skills and techniques which the players of the game have made over centuries- not someone sitting at a computer, skills and techniques that have stood the test of time. Name me one majorly successful technique that biomechanics and sport science has created?

The game is built on this- it will never be a sport where the biggest strongest fastest and fittest are the best. Sport science will make us better athletes but not nessicerily better players and thats why i think it comes second. Look at the worlds greatest ever cricketer for example : Sir garfield sobers- look at his bowling batting and fielding - watch what that man did with a ball a bat and his hands and you tell me how sports science and biomechinics would make a better player- it wont because it wont make you more skilful which is what makes you SUCCESSFUL.

England cricket is a case in point- we have the best sport science facilities in the world- the academy at loughborough is amazing, we have all the technology ( e.g merlin) and i feel we overdo this stuff yet are we the best test team? are we the best odi team? did the u19s win the last world cup? no. Why did the indian bowlers out bowl us in the summer- was it cos they were fitter or more biomechanicly efficient?no they were more skilful. What does nasser hussain say about our batsmen- we dont score enough big hundreds- sports science to the rescue!............i think not.

Its interesting to note that someone said Ian's ideas were "eons ahead of there time" but he said that these great bowlers from the 80s and 90s were already doing these things , decades before his book Whats important is he showing us what the fastest bowlers already knew: most importantly the faster the bowling arm comes over the faster the ball. This is not a scientific revelation.

Sports science definately has a place but it should always be behind the game which is why i dont agree that cricket is "way behind the times".
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I think that it is ahead of todays time to notice some of the finer intricacies which came naturally to some of the greats of the past but also, with the help of science, dissect the different parts of these actions to realise some facets of the bowling action and which methods are most efficient.

There is an overemphasis on sports science, but there is also a few misconceptions about what is being teached. Mass teaching of bad habits, we can both agree, is worse than no teaching. An example of this would be coaching express bowlers to slow down and be more accurate. The aspect of population must also come into the equation when talking about U19 teams too, India have more people, so it is likely that they will produce better players. Furthermore, they push their youngsters more into the FC game which provides vital experience for them. The natural build of players is also of importance when noting a country such as Pakistan U19s, since they have naturally strong builds for fast bowling.

PS: Nice rant.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

swinger said:
While i enjoyed his book and respect what he is trying to achieve i do think this modern obsession of biomechanics and science are overated. Cricket will always be an art over a science and one of the games greats strength is its variety: bowling and batting styles - different players interpretations of batting and bowling - e.g look at cook at hayden- both left handers both 6'2 yet they have there own distinct styles , same with say gough and marshall both right arm and 5'11.

If we keep overemphasising biomechanics we are gonna have pace bowlers and batters who all look the same.

Dont get me wrong his book has got great info in it but to say that some of the stuff is "eons ahead of his time" is pretty foolish.

At the end of the day is not how its how many- the bowling action is just a means to an end not an end in itself.

Someone here did a post analysing curtley ambroses action saying he does this that or the other wrong- and yet he took 400 test wickets at 21.
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I'm not sure you understand what is being achieved in FAST BOWLING. As a country we don not produce and are well behind Australia, who have been applying 'biomechanics' to cricket for ages, thats why they are TOP of the WORLD. I think it would be beneficial for you to attend an ABSAT course and open your eyes to the world outside the ECB/MCC coaching manuals 'that do produce similar cricketers'. Hayden is different because of biomechanics, Cook is still average because a belief that 'new is not needed'. Well to achieve we have to embrace 'NEW'.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I think swinger misses the point here, sport science isn't trying to reinvent the wheel, it's trying to make the application of the cricket skills better. Looking for new and improved ways to train, to learn and to understand what the game is about.

If we have a best case scenario with which to aim for, surely it means that skills will improve on the pitch in the long term?

Also, I don't think that people like Pont are claiming to have made the perfect action etc, just that with the aid of technology they have been able to study and analyse the things that work. Of course the great bowlers of olden days had elements of the things he teaches - if they didn't then they wouldn't have been the players they were.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I would be interested to know how Ian came to his conclusions about fast bowling. Is it purely scientific theory; theory cross referenced with pictures and videos of past greats or as a direct result of an independent study.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I think it must have been a mixture of things, also, don't forget that he had some involvement in baseball as well, which may have given him a different perspective on training.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

JonAd said:
I think it must have been a mixture of things, also, don't forget that he had some involvement in baseball as well, which may have given him a different perspective on training.
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Definately. I am just curious as to his number 1 source of information. For example, Dennis Lillee in 1985 got his findings on the bowling action out of a study with WA bowlers, one group were medium pacers who tried to bowl fast and the other group were fast bowlers who did bowl fast.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Almost Austwick-

"I think swinger misses the point here, sport science isn't trying to reinvent the wheel, it's trying to make the application of the cricket skills better. Looking for new and improved ways to train, to learn and to understand what the game is about."



i understand and accept your point- i was probably too extreme in my point of view and i do understand that its just a way of making the game better as well as learning what make the best players the best.

HOWEVER

leggeb4:

To say australia are the best in the world because they apply biomechanics to cricket is selling aus cricketers short. Biomechanics play a small part of the overall puzzle of success. There are many facets to the game that biomechanics does not take account for.

However this debate really isnt getting anywhere and regardless about what i think about sport science and biomechanics the important thing is that they are there to improve the game and in that respect they can only be a good thing even if their effectivness is a touch overated in my view.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

reading some of the comments on harrowdrive's blog, someone makes a point that having a framework to start with is great, if the pplayer then goes off on their own tangent and adopts a unique action, so be it, but at least teach them the accepted way to start with.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

swinger said:
Almost Austwick-

"I think swinger misses the point here, sport science isn't trying to reinvent the wheel, it's trying to make the application of the cricket skills better. Looking for new and improved ways to train, to learn and to understand what the game is about."



i understand and accept your point- i was probably too extreme in my point of view and i do understand that its just a way of making the game better as well as learning what make the best players the best.
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Glad it came out in the way intended. I understand where you're coming from and in some ways I can see the merit in it but I also think that there is no harm in using science to try to get the edge, where possible (and within the rules of the sport).

If people start to separate the various components and only focus on one area, then we'll have trouble. As long as they see the whole picture then progress should be made.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Listen guys, the simplest way to explain this is, is as follows. Biomechanics gets the body moving in a more efficient and quicker method. The result being faster and more powerful actions (throwing faster, harder and accurate, bowling quicker and more accurately (less time for the body to move off line for example) and hitting the ball harder and further (more runs)).

This is all for the benefit of cricket and each individual can still be 'an individual' with science developing what they have. After all coaching is a science and the further you take it the more technical it can get.

Ian Pont is the Ipod that Bob Woolmer used to be walkman. So, use everything and anything at your disposal to get the most out of your cricketers.

PS. Swinger are you a coach or very experienced player, just so I know the level to aim my next reply at. Whilst I agree it's not the be all and end all, but you sound very blinkered in your belief that biomechanics can develop cricket.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

PS - Swinger I think you should review your posts about fast bowling, where you clearly advise on several 'biomechanical' movements as if quoted out of Ian's book. I hope this recent trail of entries is the result of a bad fast bowling experience gone wrong or an effort to bowl fast out of a book, without qualified coaching.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Iv made my point and im not gonna change my mind.

p.s dont ************** make assumptions about me.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

Cool, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I would have liked to discuss this more with you on a different plain than a forum. It is after-all a complex subject that takes lots of work to get right.
It makes it easy to understand the person, before trying to explain an issue.

No assumptions intended, just a plain interest in how you see coaching development and your personal expierences, after all this is a forum and entries should be backed up by beliefs.

Cheers anyway for playing devil's advocate on the biomechanics front.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

swinger said:
p.s dont ing make assumptions about me.
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Although a few questions were asked, no assumptions were made other than by you swinger and I lost count of how many :D

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and if you feel strongly enough about yours, you should be confident enough to discuss them. Freedom of speech works both ways! You are free to print your views but you must expect and respect others' if you wish others to respect your's.
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

i know im probaly sinning here but i disagree with a few of ian's methods... My coach has his book and loves some parts but he say's and i agree that some parts of his coaching is wrong, not in a technical way but in other ways, my view and OPINION is " ECB coaching aim's at minimising risk of injury to fast bowlers by working on getting a correct action that works before developing pace" whereas ian's view is to just generate pace in bowlers and i believe he disregards specific parts of getting correct actions and if a young bowler or a bowler with a not perfect action did what he say's they will increase strain and pressure on incorrect actions................................... remember this is an opinion and i'm tired so parts don't make sense
 
Re: Interview with Fast Bowling Guru Ian Pont

I can see what you're saying but I would really have to compare the two before I can give an informed answer. Maybe someone like leggeb4 would be able to respond in the meantime though?
 
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