Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

[MinuteWaltz]

Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Cricinfo - No more smoke and mirrors

Zimbabwe is 8-49-26 in Test cricket and four of those wins were against Bangladesh. They haven't played a Test match since 9/05. They are 81-243-5 in ODI cricket, including 13-50-1 since the beginning of 05 and 3-20-1 since the beginning of 07.

With this all taken into account, do you think there is a possibility Zimbabwe could lose either their Test or ODI status? Should they?

I'm of the opinion that removing a nation's ability to play high level international matches does much more harm than good developmentally. Therefore, I believe Zimbabwe should keep their status, regardless of performance, but I'm interested in what other people think, particularly in regards to the possibility of such an unprecedented move.

 

[D.K]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

It is a hard thing that the ICC need to consider.

Zimbabwe is in such a poor political, economical and financial way that seeing them produce a world class team in the near future is hard to fathom. But saying that I don't see Mugabe lasting much longer (he is in his late 80s isnt he? ) and then possibly and hopefully the countries problems will improve in all areas.

Also I don't know many other sports that Zimbabwe compete in at a high level. Is cricket their national sport? By removing their test status and condeming their rising juniors to no future won't send the right message or hope.

My thoughts are to allow them to keep their International status but give them more and more games against the Association level teams with a few games here and there against the test nations. Let them take it at their own pace but unfortunately it won't be until their countries problems are sorted out till we see some sort of change/improvement in Zimbabwe's cricket.

 

[VFNaturally]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

They should (like Bang) lose their test status.

They wont.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I don't agree with Banglasesh losing their status but I do think that for the time being Zimbabwe should.

The country has little first class infrastructure and they seem to randomly pluck players from nowhere to the one day side. This is without even considering the other problems the country faces.

 

[VFNaturally]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

What you have said about Zim also applies to Bang.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

It does if you skim the surface of both countries but delve deeper and you'll see that they are worlds apart.

Bangladesh has a well structured first class system which is administered by a seemingly stable board. I can't comment on the quality of the first class game and I doubt it's little better than premier league cricket in the UK or Grade cricket in Australia but then again it's only 10 years old. Let's see where they are in 5 years time and so on.

Cricket in the country is well supported and with the right infrastructure and screening programs they should be able to produce test standard players.

Contrast that with Zimbabwe, run by a corrupt administration with an erratic first class system which seems to run on a whim and is of lower quality than that of the Bangladeshi system.

Also take into consideration that most people in the country have more pressing concerns than playing sport and you can see where the differences lie.

Bangladesh is far from perfect but it's in a far better situation than Zimbabwe at this current time. The attentions of the BCCI (outlawing the ICL players) aren't helping matters but at least they have the opportunity/structure and funds to bring on decent prospect.

The argument is there that Bangladesh are not 'test' standard but then what actually qualifies as test standard? Are New Zealand really test standard at this moment, when compared to the likes of India or Australia? Then, what do you do with countries like Ireland and Scotland, both are reasonable minnow teams but it's doubtful that they can ever support a first class game, unless they double up and create a Celtic league. Is it even worthwhile trying to develop these nations, would money and time be better spent in places like China or Afghanistan?

I guess my point is that cricket has to grow and the only way to do that is by letting teams play, providing they meet certain criteria, not just playing standards but the whole package. It's worth remembering that most teams got a spanking when they first arrived on the test scene and that Bangladesh have more than most to make up in terms of time, especially when you consider has much the game has changed (not just on the pitch but in coaching, training and promotion for example).

What is the answer? A two or even three tiered test system? I'll be honest and say that I'd like to see it, with the top 6 teams contesting series of at least 5 tests, home and away. The next 6 then contest series of 3 tests each with the final grouping of 6 playing 4 day games. Promotion and relegation between tiers based on standings every 2/3 years.

The one day and 20/20 game can stay as they are as these are the formats which will need to be used to attract new blood to the game.

 

[VFNaturally]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I would contest the suggestion that Test cricket needs to grow. There is no reason that it has to.

One problem with that test system would be the records of the game would be completely bastardised. Just like in football where some tin pot forward can claim to have 80 international goals in 90 matches. It would mean nothing.

There is also the problem of historic series been lost. For much of the 90s the Ashes would not have happened. This is not acceptable to me. I am sure Ind-Pak fans would lament that series loss. Which would have happened.

I am also not convinced about Bang FC comp. It is a very weak competition. And they have no wish to improve it......flat refusing an invitation to take part in Indian domestic competitions.

Ireland etc? They can play the odd ODI in major competitions. It makes things exciting. Other than that they should stay exactly as they are: FC competition. I think there are too many meaningless ODIs even now......look at the recent Canada/Pakistan series. Not one Canadian player was really Canadian.

As for where the money should be spent. Certainly not on pointless expansion. Concentrate on the existing test nations (we will have to accept Zim and Bang it isnt going to change) and stop throwing it away.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

If test cricket remains as it is then it'll just become an anachronism. The game has to expand on all fronts or else one format will become the dominant platform and wipe out other forms.

I concur that the Bangladesh FC system is weak at the moment but there is potential there for it to strengthen. I'm not sure that turning down a place in the Indian domestic scene is a sign of a refusal to raise standards. As I'm sure many will tell you, the Indian domestic scene is erratic in quality depending on the competition.

 

[D.K]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I would contest the suggestion that Test cricket needs to grow. There is no reason that it has to..

I don't think that it needs to grow but it needs to be stablsied by the governing body. I am a firm believer that the BCCI are becoming too large an influence on the higher body and IMO will only be a matter of time before the ICC are their puppets. You look at the world game and other then Test cricket in Australia and England, crowds are pretty poor. Many prefer the shorter 20-20 game.

I am also not convinced about Bang FC comp. It is a very weak competition. And they have no wish to improve it......flat refusing an invitation to take part in Indian domestic competitions.

Ireland etc? They can play the odd ODI in major competitions. It makes things exciting. Other than that they should stay exactly as they are: FC competition. I think there are too many meaningless ODIs even now......look at the recent Canada/Pakistan series. Not one Canadian player was really Canadian..

I support the Bangledesh guys on sticking with their own first class system. Its in its infant stage and needs time to be allowed to grow. Banglesdesh is huge, not sure if you can quote me on this but Cricket is their national sport or close to??? They have very promising juniors and they are streaks ahead of zimbabwe in all areas; money, board, players and set up. They are playing their cards dealt to them the right way.




*Moving to the main board as I think this topic is quite important for general cricket*

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I've moved the discussion about test cricket and balls to it's own seperate thread as we were going off on a tangent.

Also, it would be a shame to lose both discussions as they were separately bring in some very good points.

http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t62188/

 

[grapedo]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

It is a hard thing that the ICC need to consider.

Zimbabwe is in such a poor political, economical and financial way that seeing them produce a world class team in the near future is hard to fathom. But saying that I don't see Mugabe lasting much longer (he is in his late 80s isnt he? ) and then possibly and hopefully the countries problems will improve in all areas.

Also I don't know many other sports that Zimbabwe compete in at a high level. Is cricket their national sport? By removing their test status and condeming their rising juniors to no future won't send the right message or hope.

My thoughts are to allow them to keep their International status but give them more and more games against the Association level teams with a few games here and there against the test nations. Let them take it at their own pace but unfortunately it won't be until their countries problems are sorted out till we see some sort of change/improvement in Zimbabwe's cricket.

I don't agree with blaming the countries problems on their poor cricket.
South Africa played decent cricket with Apartheid in place.
Mugabe is the president not the cricket team coach he has nothing to do with the cricket team. Except perhaps funding which he gave out to the Zimbabwean olympians that did well.
This tells me that when some decent results are shown I am sure they will get increased funding.

 

[grapedo]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

In saying that though I thought they played decent cricket against Sri Lanka. Their 20 20 wc was also not a bad campaign. All I need to see now is an improved test outfit and i can answe no for this question.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I don't agree with blaming the countries problems on their poor cricket.
South Africa played decent cricket with Apartheid in place.
Mugabe is the president not the cricket team coach he has nothing to do with the cricket team. Except perhaps funding which he gave out to the Zimbabwean olympians that did well.
This tells me that when some decent results are shown I am sure they will get increased funding.

Zimbabwe has different problems to that of Apartheid era South Africa, ones that effect sport in many ways and to a greater extent. Even when isolated from world sport, South Africa had a decent infrastructure, proven by the fact that they were not completely out of their depth upon their re-entry.

Zimbabwe currently has very little. The 'first-class' game is haphazard at best and of such a poor quality that it prepares players for very little. Success has to be built from a solid base, Zimbabwe is far from that.

Mugabe has his fingers in the cricket pie and although he may not be directly involved, he has enough cronies in place to influence proceedings. Money is diverted so that 'officials' enjoy a semi decent standard of living whilst players are made to compromise. Why do you think so many players have quit the team?

Also, money from the ICC isn't just there to run the national squads but to develop the game from the grass roots upwards. Can you seriously tell me that the game is thriving in Zimbabwe? That they are on the verge of a decent team forming?

 

[grapedo]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Zimbabwe has different problems to that of Apartheid era South Africa, ones that effect sport in many ways and to a greater extent. Even when isolated from world sport, South Africa had a decent infrastructure, proven by the fact that they were not completely out of their depth upon their re-entry.

Zimbabwe currently has very little. The 'first-class' game is haphazard at best and of such a poor quality that it prepares players for very little. Success has to be built from a solid base, Zimbabwe is far from that.

Mugabe has his fingers in the cricket pie and although he may not be directly involved, he has enough cronies in place to influence proceedings. Money is diverted so that 'officials' enjoy a semi decent standard of living whilst players are made to compromise. Why do you think so many players have quit the team?

Also, money from the ICC isn't just there to run the national squads but to develop the game from the grass roots upwards. Can you seriously tell me that the game is thriving in Zimbabwe? That they are on the verge of a decent team forming?

I see your point putting it that way.
I just think that other issues ie. Hyper Inflation, Unemployment, poverty and a dictorship regime dosen't effect the cricket team too much.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Hyper Inflation, Unemployment, poverty and a dictorship regime

Think of the above and how it would likely effect you, if you were living in a country suffering from the above.

Then think about where cricket would lie on your list of priorities.

 

[grapedo]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Think of the above and how it would likely effect you, if you were living in a country suffering from the above.

Then think about where cricket would lie on your list of priorities.

yeah you raise some good points.
But I think they played pretty well against Sri Lanka and made me respect them more than I did. How about you ?

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

The talent is there but sadly the infrastructure is not.

You only have to look at the joke that is the recruitment of a new national coach to see the mess they're in. A plum job (well it would be in normal circumstances) yet only 4 low level applicants.

 

[breeno]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Well according to Harrowdrive the difference between Professionals and club players is the "10,000 hour effect", in other words, clock up 10,000 hours practice and with a good talent base you are able to play at the elite level.

Where I'm going with this is that if the people don't have time to play cricket, they have to work in order not to starve, or they are starving in general they won't be able to play/play at their optimum performance.

If the government is suppressing the people, these stress factors and as MC said, they don't have the infrastructure and their grassroots cricket is terrible, simply put, they won't be able to produce players of Test standard.

MC I was reading that in the 90's Zimbabwe with the Flowers and such were on the up, do you know if this is true or not?

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

Well worth a read, a look back at Zimbabwean cricket over 2008.

Given the escalating social and economic turmoil inside the country, it was hardly surprising that there was little cheer on Zimbabwe's cricket front. There is even an argument that simply keeping the sport alive represented an achievement on the part of Zimbabwe Cricket.

Full article at Cricinfo

This sums up the situation for me:

This is outside the control of ZC or the ICC. If Mugabe's 28-year rule ends, the board can start rebuilding, and the ICC's help will rarely have been more vital. While there can be no overnight solution, a number of former players and coaches are likely to be tempted back, and overseas investment will follow. Chingoka and his sidekicks will depart in the aftershocks of any regime change, paving the way for a less political and more focussed executive. If Mugabe survives, then by the end of 2009 it is possible that cricket in Zimbabwe will be limited to a handful of grounds and a few dozen diehard players. It really has got to that stage.

That is the grim reality.

MC I was reading that in the 90's Zimbabwe with the Flowers and such were on the up, do you know if this is true or not?

Whether they were on the up is a hard to say but they were at the very least a competitive team. The likes of Flower, Campbell, Goodwin and even Olonga were good enough to hold their own at test level. Also, the experience they had would have been crucial in bringing along the next generation of players.

Once they started to drift away all that was left was nothing more than a bunch of kids really, Yes, many had potential but there was no experience to learn from and as we've seen they floundered. Matters made worse by the lack of a real first class system and all of the things touched upon in the linked article and this thread.

 

[joel]

Re: Likelihood Zimbabwe loses Test or ODI statis?

I see your point putting it that way.
I just think that other issues ie. Hyper Inflation, Unemployment, poverty and a dictorship regime dosen't effect the cricket team too much.

I think what is affecting it is not the issues you listed as much as the fact that they and racism towards white's in the country is making it very difficult for whites to reside in and thus compete for Zimbabwe. Racial tensions also make it difficult to pick a fair mix of white and black players.

I think I read that the flower brothers weren't living there anymore after some of their relatives were killed in a racially motivated attack...