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Richie said:
Ok a semi- meaty answer.
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Ideological indoctrination? Such a wide field. It depends on whom you ask. People have different views on what it is, how it works, and also vary in terms of how susceptible they are to it. I observed that again during our class reunion.

People try to come to terms with a dictatorship in many different ways. What Martin Broszat once said about life in the NS regime applies to other dictatorships, too. "As in other areas, there were enthusiasts and the convinced, opportunists and followers, 'inner emigrants' and tacit dissenters, as well as a mixture of all these motives in one...” The vast majority of people had found a niche for themselves (as part of an inner emigration). My niche was the tennis club where a certain type of people gathered and which had the strongest influence on me. It was my actual secondary socialisation, if you like. That environment plus West German TV made me immune to one-sided and coarse, woodcut-like propaganda.

All pupils were members of a youth organisation arranging after-school activities (similar to the boy/girl scouts but with a stronger emphasis on indoor entertainment, outings, dancing, etc.), and from the age of 14, attended a class called Civics for 45' a week where the socialist/communist system was presented as the superior one. Membership in that organisation was expected but engaging in it was not. As a non-active member you wouldn't be disadvantaged nor would activists automatically be privileged. Outsiders tend to overrate the significance of it and the effect it had on its members.

Indoctrination works on a subconscious level – for some, not for everybody. Some people couldn’t cope with it. There were those who used to be the strongest critics of the system tended to advocate it after it had collapsed. They couldn't bring themselves to welcome the western system wholeheartedly. There's so much nostalgia. And that means that, whether they like it or not, they were and still are, subconsciously more indoctrinated than they are willing to admit.

The region around Dresden (where Putin was based as a KGB officer) became notorious since Western TV couldn't be received at all for technical reasons which meant that the only source of information was communist propaganda through state-owned TV channels, which would hold true for a lot of East Germans. Those were the ones who later were overwhelmed by what they saw in West Germany after the wall had come down.
It makes a difference whether you internalise the propaganda as it was presented or whether you take it with a pinch of salt because there's a counter draft, a corrective, which you compare it to. In Germany there are three groups of people in our generation: the West Germans, on the one hand, and the East Germans, OTOH, who, again, were divided by having access to West German TV. Luckily, I was among those who had been able to watch West German TV since I was a child in the 60s. As a young man I used to be quite uncritical of the US and tended to adore them for its history, scientific achievements, nature, living standard, etc. getting some glimpses about it through westerns, crime movies and TV-series and, later on, through other, more demanding movies and TV documentaries. I also tuned in to radio stations broadcasting from West Germany like the English-speaking BFBS (British Forces Broadcasting Service), the German-speaking RIAS (Radio in the American Sector of West-Berlin) or RTL (Luxemburg/Europe).
My attitude toward the US changed in the course of time but I’ve always been more pro-American than Pro-Russian like the vast majority of East-German voters for extremist and populist parties are.

So there were choices within the given framework. Indoctrination attempts did not always fall on fertile ground and where they did, they were not necessarily long-lasting. Differentiation is key.
PS: Sorry for the longer post. I didn't have time to write a short one. ;)
 
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looker-on said:
Ideological indoctrination? Such a wide field. It depends on whom you ask. People have different views on what it is, how it works, and also vary in terms of how susceptible they are to it. I observed that again during our class reunion.

People try to come to terms with a dictatorship in many different ways. What Martin Broszat once said about life in the NS regime applies to other dictatorships, too. "As in other areas, there were enthusiasts and the convinced, opportunists and followers, 'inner emigrants' and tacit dissenters, as well as a mixture of all these motives in one...” The vast majority of people had found a niche for themselves (as part of an inner emigration). My niche was the tennis club where a certain type of people gathered and which had the strongest influence on me. It was my actual secondary socialisation, if you like. That environment plus West German TV made me immune to one-sided and coarse, woodcut-like propaganda.

All pupils were members of a youth organisation arranging after-school activities (similar to the boy/girl scouts but with a stronger emphasis on indoor entertainment, outings, dancing, etc.), and from the age of 14, attended a class called Civics for 45' a week where the socialist/communist system was presented as the superior one. Membership in that organisation was expected but engaging in it was not. As a non-active member you wouldn't be disadvantaged nor would activists automatically be privileged. Outsiders tend to overrate the significance of it and the effect it had on its members.

Indoctrination works on a subconscious level – for some, not for everybody. Some people couldn’t cope with it. There were those who used to be the strongest critics of the system tended to advocate it after it had collapsed. They couldn't bring themselves to welcome the western system wholeheartedly. There's so much nostalgia. And that means that, whether they like it or not, they were and still are, subconsciously more indoctrinated than they are willing to admit.

The region around Dresden (where Putin was based as a KGB officer) became notorious since Western TV couldn't be received at all for technical reasons which meant that the only source of information was communist propaganda through state-owned TV channels, which would hold true for a lot of East Germans. Those were the ones who later were overwhelmed by what they saw in West Germany after the wall had come down.
It makes a difference whether you internalise the propaganda as it was presented or whether you take it with a pinch of salt because there's a counter draft, a corrective, which you compare it to. In Germany there are three groups of people in our generation: the West Germans, on the one hand, and the East Germans, OTOH, who, again, were divided by having access to West German TV. Luckily, I was among those who had been able to watch West German TV since I was a child in the 60s. As a young man I used to be quite uncritical of the US and tended to adore them for its history, scientific achievements, nature, living standard, etc. getting some glimpses about it through westerns, crime movies and TV-series and, later on, through other, more demanding movies and TV documentaries. I also tuned in to radio stations broadcasting from West Germany like the English-speaking BFBS (British Forces Broadcasting Service), the German-speaking RIAS (Radio in the American Sector of West-Berlin) or RTL (Luxemburg/Europe).
My attitude toward the US changed in the course of time but I’ve always been more pro-American than Pro-Russian like the vast majority of East-German voters for extremist and populist parties are.

So there were choices within the given framework. Indoctrination attempts did not always fall on fertile ground and where they did, they were not necessarily long-lasting. Differentiation is key.
PS: Sorry for the longer post. I didn't have time to write a short one. ;)
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That was a very interesting and meaty story Thomas.
Thanks for sharing. 🙂
 
I loved 'The Big Bang Theory' and recently 'Young Sheldon' but that's finished now. 🙁
Our SBS movies in Oz can be great but with many free to air streaming channels the choice is wide.
It's a given I watch/listen to reputable channels like our ABC & BBC, DW, ...
One semi quiz show I love to watch is "Tipping Point". It's on before the Ch 9 news here. I've watched the British one too. It's got everything: knowledge, reflexes, probability, mechanics, tactics, strategy, gambling ... my pets' noisy feeding time...too!
 
Richie said:
You mean I have been misspelling friend incorrectly all these years, why didnt you say something.
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No, mate, I certainly didn't mean that.
First and foremost, you don't correct my mistakes either, do you? Second, because this is not a German lesson. Third, if you want me to elaborate on it, yes, Freund is a noun and any noun should start with a capital letter whereas adjectives like deutsche or deutscher don't.
In your case, it should have been "our (unser) deutscher Freund" since you included Terry as well. Without reference to Terry you can simply write "mein deutscher Freund" or even "mein lieber deutscher Freund".☺️
When replying, I needed to use plural (meine australischen Freunde) since I was referring to you, Terry, and possibly to someone else.
Fourth, I hope this doesn't confuse you. Simply trying to sort things out for you because you asked me. :)
 
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looker-on said:
No, mate, I certainly didn't mean that.
First and foremost, you don't correct my mistakes either, do you? Second, because this is not a German lesson. Third, if you want me to elaborate on it, yes, Freund is a noun and any noun should start with a capital letter whereas adjectives like deutsche or deutscher don't.
In your case, it should have been "our (unser) deutscher Freund" since you included Terry as well. Without reference to Terry you can simply write "mein deutscher Freund" or even "mein lieber deutscher Freund".☺️
When replying, I needed to use plural (meine australischen Freunde) since I was referring to you, Terry, and possibly to someone else.
Fourth, I hope this doesn't confuse you. Simply trying to sort things out for you because you asked me. :)
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I see then I had been spelling friend (freund) correctly as freunde is plural. Interesting the difference between noun and adjective mate.
Will go and have brekkie (breakfast) or fruestuck , is this the correct spelling. I learned several German words during my travels in southern Germany in 1980.
:cool:
 
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Richie said:
I see then I had been spelling friend (freund) correctly as freunde is plural. Interesting the difference between noun and adjective mate.
Will go and have brekkie (breakfast) or fruestuck , is this the correct spelling. I learned several German words during my travels in southern Germany in 1980.
:cool:
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Hope you enjoyed your Frühstück (add an h, you won't have an Umlaut ü on your keyboard, so ue is OK.
 
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