Top Spin and Dip

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Yeah I just had a look at the 2nd ball up (Orthodox back-spinner) that looks a bit special, that is such a difficult delivery yet he makes it look easy. The other ball to Sachin looks like an out of the front of the hand Flipper which would spin like an off-break, again a very difficult ball to bowl.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah I just had a look at the 2nd ball up (Orthodox back-spinner) that looks a bit special, that is such a difficult delivery yet he makes it look easy. The other ball to Sachin looks like an out of the front of the hand Flipper which would spin like an off-break, again a very difficult ball to bowl.
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What's the difference between a front of the hand flipper and a regulation offspinner?
 
SLA said:
What's the difference between a front of the hand flipper and a regulation offspinner?
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When you think about it, very little I reckon, but then maybe there's scope as with many of the Flippers to do it wrong and still come up with a useful outcome, you just create a hybrid variation. My take on the Offies release is that it's more fingery and an integral part of the release is that the fingers are splayed, whereas the Flipper is 50/50 thumb and fingers with the fingers all close together. In fact with the Off-Spinning Flipper I find that using 3 fingers helps. Another aspect might be with the Offies release there's an element of wrist action as well? But with the Flipper (In my case) its very much a rigid wrist at the point of release.
 
big kev said:
How much topspin is needed to get a good amount of drift? Is it just a little, or do you need a lot?
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Now there's a good question. I'm researching and collating info on Drift at the moment as I'm working on updating my blogs with a big article on the subject. This morning I came across an article here which was useful I felt.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html
The basic premise is 'Some' a pure top-spinner isn't going to create drift - only dip, so if the balls released with the seam angled towards slips, drift is going to start to happen. There's an interesting piece in Woolmers recent book where he analyses the 'Ball of the century' in depth and concludes that the reason that may have drfited so much was the axis of the ball spinning. The axis of the ball wasn't horizontal it was either angled slightly up or down (I can't recall which). The other factor is the rotations - RPM's, again the general rule (Philpott) is the faster the ball spins the more it's going to do.

Additionally there's also got to be an optimum speed as well or at least a minimum and it'd be interesting to find data or opinion on this. Some recently referred me to Afridi as he apparently gets dramatic drift and that maybe due to his faster pace?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Now there's a good question. I'm researching and collating info on Drift at the moment as I'm working on updating my blogs with a big article on the subject. This morning I came across an article here which was useful I felt.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html
The basic premise is 'Some' a pure top-spinner isn't going to create drift - only dip, so if the balls released with the seam angled towards slips, drift is going to start to happen. There's an interesting piece in Woolmers recent book where he analyses the 'Ball of the century' in depth and concludes that the reason that may have drfited so much was the axis of the ball spinning. The axis of the ball wasn't horizontal it was either angled slightly up or down (I can't recall which). The other factor is the rotations - RPM's, again the general rule (Philpott) is the faster the ball spins the more it's going to do.

Additionally there's also got to be an optimum speed as well or at least a minimum and it'd be interesting to find data or opinion on this. Some recently referred me to Afridi as he apparently gets dramatic drift and that maybe due to his faster pace?
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It's good of him to attempt a description of the physics of spin, but its not very accurate in some parts. The effect of a backspinner "sitting up" and a topspinner "accelerating through low" are only seen on really soft damp grassy club wickets, not the kind that a professional would ever play on.
WRT drift and bowling speed, if you look into the Reynald's number for a cricket ball, I believe it peaks at a certain combination of linear and rotational velocity, which is where the lateral magnus force will be greatest. Of course, the rate of movement will be maximised at a higher velocity than the total lateral deflection.
 
SLA said:
It's good of him to attempt a description of the physics of spin, but its not very accurate in some parts. The effect of a backspinner "sitting up" and a topspinner "accelerating through low" are only seen on really soft damp grassy club wickets, not the kind that a professional would ever play on.
WRT drift and bowling speed, if you look into the Reynald's number for a cricket ball, I believe it peaks at a certain combination of linear and rotational velocity, which is where the lateral magnus force will be greatest. Of course, the rate of movement will be maximised at a higher velocity than the total lateral deflection.
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And now I'm reaching for a Physics dictionary.......................:confused:
 
someblokecalleddave said:
And now I'm reaching for a Physics dictionary.......................:confused:
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Well you did ask :D

I studied this at uni and it's really interesting stuff - have you ever heard of the reverse magnus force for example? (This isn't really relevant to cricket)

Basically, if the ball is travelling slow enough or has a rough enough surface, then it will only swerve the one way. But a smooth ball, if propelled hard enough, will swerve in the opposite direction. For example, kick a flyaway football as hard as you can with backspin, and it will dip like a crazy topspinner. This is because the Reynald's number has switched from positive to negative. Cool huh?
 
SLA said:
Well you did ask :D

I studied this at uni and it's really interesting stuff - have you ever heard of the reverse magnus force for example? (This isn't really relevant to cricket)

Basically, if the ball is travelling slow enough or has a rough enough surface, then it will only swerve the one way. But a smooth ball, if propelled hard enough, will swerve in the opposite direction. For example, kick a flyaway football as hard as you can with backspin, and it will dip like a crazy topspinner. This is because the Reynald's number has switched from positive to negative. Cool huh?
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:confused:Probably. I'll have to take your word for it, I've been looking around - checked out those Reynolds number and then gave up on them. If I don't get too bogged down by the Physics and continue with the Drift piece for my blog I'll get you to have a look at it and see if I've managed to get it into Layman's language?
 
big kev said:
How much topspin is needed to get a good amount of drift? Is it just a little, or do you need a lot?
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sidespin brings drift. Topspin gives drop. Backspin gives float.
average legbreak will have topspin and legspin so it should drift and drop.
 
I'm assuming that when we all set out on our Wrist Spinning journeys the first ball we all bowled was the Leg Break in some form or manner. The question I need answering is two-fold.

1. What was the first variation you tried to learn?
2. Now with a little more experience what would you advise as being the first variation to learn?
 
After Shane warn and Murlitharan future of spin bowling is looking dark.No team has good spin attack right now. Harbhajan is available but he is out of form from long back time.
 
MarkBenson said:
After Shane warn and Murlitharan future of spin bowling is looking dark.No team has good spin attack right now. Harbhajan is available but he is out of form from long back time.
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Mate you just ruined my life (momentarily) albeit unintentionally, you've got the same name as my best mate who never comes on here and I was writing a big piece on Drift for a new thread, saw your name and came out of the almost finished page to check you out and lost it all!!!:eek: Anyway that aside - Ajmal for Pakistan looks pretty good and what about our man Swanne? Or are you talking in terms of once in a millenium type freaks of nature?
 
MarkBenson said:
After Shane warn and Murlitharan future of spin bowling is looking dark.No team has good spin attack right now. Harbhajan is available but he is out of form from long back time.
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Yeah, although when you are talking warnie and murili you are talking about absolute once in a lifetime bowlers. We were lucky to have seen them . Spin bowling has gone through some dry gullies over the years although there is usually always at least one great one operating at any one time and that would be swanne at the present. Legspinners can learn loads from watching him, especially how to bowl to lefthanders.

The cupboard is a bit bare at the moment though tahir might get a start with the springboks soon and there are a few young guys going ok around the traps. Boyce for Qld had a fantastic match a couple of weeks back and is the pick of the crop here but needs a lot more time to develop.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I'm assuming that when we all set out on our Wrist Spinning journeys the first ball we all bowled was the Leg Break in some form or manner. The question I need answering is two-fold.

1. What was the first variation you tried to learn?
2. Now with a little more experience what would you advise as being the first variation to learn?
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For whatever reasons, I started with top spin and added leg break as a variation since the turn is the surprise element. But over a period of time, I am using the big leg breaks more often and using flipper +slider with some degree of success and top spinner as the variation. Just couldn't get the googly going for me.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Top Spin and Dip

I checked out the shane Warne 'Best of IPL 2009' clips and was watching it thinking what is it that he does that none of us are doing? I think amongst us there's a couple that can get the ball to rotate through the air pretty quickly, some of us that are accurate and some of us that go through spells where we combine different aspects of our speciality to good effect, but we're still a gazillion miles from Warne. Currently I'd say that my bowling in comparison to last year has improved, but so far this year I've had a terrible year of it. I would say that I'm far more able to land the ball where I want it and I'm also turning it more. Additionally I've got increased control over the accuracy at both slower and faster deliveries and yet I'm being hit to the 4 corners of the county. I think I know why - I'm missing a couple of Shane Warne factors - speed and dip......

If you look at these clips -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT1HhHntF2o these batsmen just look totally inept. I realise that there's things in Warnes favour - his reputation and the whole psychology aspect of the game and the fact that these bloke can't hang around and they've got to make runs etc, but there's more. Play the clip and make a note of the speeds that he bowls at in KPH's 75, 82, 74, 76, 74, 72, 72, 72, 73, 81, 83, 81, 76, 80, 78, 81.

Most of the wickets are the classic flighted balls around the 73 KPH mark and that in MPH is 45mph. I can bowl at 45mph but only when I bowl Flippers as these are my fastest delivery and to get them to land 4 or 5 yards in front of the batsman they have to go in flat because of the speed. The conclusion has to be that these ridiculously flighted 'Warne' balls that cause the batsmen so much of a problem which are measured at 45mph, must have incomprehendable top-spin causing them to simply fall out of the sky, otherwise at that speed and tossed up like that they should be ending up 8 or 10 yards behind the wicket keeper! So for all our successes with our drift and a bit of turn off the wicket at 38mph and 40 mph I reckon one of the biggest attributes that many of us are probably missing is that ability to make the ball dip so radically off of what for us would probably be faster balls?

So even though I'm accurate and turning the ball, it's coming in so slow and at such a predictable speed that the batsmen this year are just hitting it. I need more speed and some of that magic dip.

What do you reckon?
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Maybe you should work on a back of the hand slower ball like the one fast bowlers bowl and use that as a quicker ball? That's how I first noticed dip, even if I bowl the back of the hand slower delivery at 70kph and bowl it straight at the batsmans head it still lands on a good length. It's also very useful to bowl to batsmen who expect a quicker, flatter ball that they can guide with the blade for 4, since it will look like a miserably failed quicker ball as it is moving straight at their head. But because of the top spin it will dip and land short enough to bounce up at their bat. I had reasonable success with it when I utilized it as my quicker ball. You should try it sometime, helps you to recognize dip in your other deliveries as well. When I bowl the top spinner I can "see" it dipping in the same way that I see drift in my leg break, practice it with a tennis ball and remember the #1 rule for the top spinner = Spin it as hard as you possibly can, and if you get enough on it it will be nearly impossible for you to bowl a full toss. Dip looks like gravity increasing to give you an idea, look closely and you'll notice an amount of dip in your bowling because it is there if you put top spin on the ball.
 
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