Windies The Best Team

[Jerk]

Windies The Best Team

I noticed the other day it was posted this current Aussie team is the greatest of all time. The Aussie team 4-5 years ago was even much better as Hayden,Langer, Gilly, McGrath and Warne alone were much younger and prolly in th prime of their careers.

I still believe the Windies team of the 80's was a much better team then the current test team. The pitches were less condusive for high scoring and bat technology didn't have mis hits still flying for 4's and 6's.

Lets compare the the 2 different test teams

West Indies
Desmond Haynes 116 tests @ 42.30
Gordon Grenidge 108 tests @ 44.72
Richie Richardson 86 tests @ 44.40
Viv Richards 121 tests @ 50.24
Clive Lloyd 110 tests @ 46.68
Larry Gomes 61 tests @ 69.64
Jeff Dujon 81 tests @ 31.94 270 dismissals
Malcom Marshall 81 tests 376 wickets @ 20.95
Micheal Holding 61 tests 249 wickets @ 23.69
Joel Garner 58 tests 259 wickets @ 20.98
Courtney Walsh 132 tests 519 wickets @ 24.44

Australia
Matt Hayden 87 tests @ 52.29
Justin Langer 103 tests @ 45.38
Ricky Ponting 108 tests @ 59.72
Micheal Hussey 14 tests @ 86.33
Micheal Clarke 25 tests @ 44.00
Andrew Symonds 11 tests @ 18.47 11 wickets @ 40.45
Adam Gilchrist 88 tests @ 48.98 369 dismissals
Shane Warne 143 tests 699 wickets @ 25.49
Brett Lee 57 tests 219 wickets @ 32.44
Stuart Clark 7 tests 37 wickets @ 18.62
Glenn Mc Grath 122 tests 555 wickets @ 21.65

Remembering the aussies batting line up's averages would be much better due to pitches being produced these days compared to then, the much smaller grounds and better bats used.

Also the Windies had players like Roger Harper, Eldine Baptiste, Paterick Patterson all bowlers who couldn't make the team at different times.

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Australia can't hold a candle up to Windies of 70s/80s. Windies back then
couldn't artificially jack up their averages playing the likes of Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, etc.
They achieved their record against the Pommies, New Zealand, Pakistan, etc. who were much better back in the
80s than they are now. The last few years Australia have just been a big
fish in a little pond of mediocre national teams.

 

[Chandu]

Re: Windies The Best Team

No doubt about it. Clive Lloyd's West Indies was the best team ever - for tests and ODI. They were my favourite team of all times. They lost one World Cup final to India in 1983 in what was really, a huge upset.

 

[tambo]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Lets Compare the players

Langer and Hayden VS Haynes and Greenidge
Probably have to give a the edge to the Windies here if only stats wise as their opening combo have been the most successful...Langer and Hayden were Second though so not much difference.

Ponting, Hussey, Clarke VS Richardson, Richards and Lloyd
Another Win to the west indies here as Hussey and Clarke have really yet to prove themselves although Ponting is up there with the best of them. Lloyd however was a better captain.

Symonds VS Gomes
Batting Test: Gomes by a mile
Batting One Day: Pretty Even
Roys bowling though draws it closer.

Gilchrist VS Dujon
Gilchrist By a mile through sheer weight of runs and probably similar wk

Warne VS
The lack of a spinner gives the West indian team less versatility and as Warne is well...Warne that gives the Aussies a big win

Lee, Clarke, McGrath VS Marshall, Holding, Walsh, Garner
Two Different pace lineups, McGrath and Clarke are in a Different mould to the others and Walsh took alot of wickets after the downfall of the great windies side but i think for sheer domination of attacks id give it to the West Indies. However the Warne and McGrath Combo i believe makes the Aussie bowling line up superior to the West Indies.

OPening Bat:SLightly West Indies
Middle Order:West Indies
W/K: Australia
Spin:Warney!
Pace: Windies

Overall: West Indies SLightly

 

[aveslacker]

Re: Windies The Best Team

I noticed the other day it was posted this current Aussie team is the greatest of all time. The Aussie team 4-5 years ago was even much better as Hayden,Langer, Gilly, McGrath and Warne alone were much younger and prolly in th prime of their careers.

I still believe the Windies team of the 80's was a much better team then the current test team. The pitches were less condusive for high scoring and bat technology didn't have mis hits still flying for 4's and 6's.

Lets compare the the 2 different test teams

West Indies
Desmond Haynes 116 tests @ 42.30
Gordon Grenidge 108 tests @ 44.72
Richie Richardson 86 tests @ 44.40
Viv Richards 121 tests @ 50.24
Clive Lloyd 110 tests @ 46.68
Larry Gomes 61 tests @ 69.64
Jeff Dujon 81 tests @ 31.94 270 dismissals
Malcom Marshall 81 tests 376 wickets @ 20.95
Micheal Holding 61 tests 249 wickets @ 23.69
Joel Garner 58 tests 259 wickets @ 20.98
Courtney Walsh 132 tests 519 wickets @ 24.44

Australia
Matt Hayden 87 tests @ 52.29
Justin Langer 103 tests @ 45.38
Ricky Ponting 108 tests @ 59.72
Micheal Hussey 14 tests @ 86.33
Micheal Clarke 25 tests @ 44.00
Andrew Symonds 11 tests @ 18.47 11 wickets @ 40.45
Adam Gilchrist 88 tests @ 48.98 369 dismissals
Shane Warne 143 tests 699 wickets @ 25.49
Brett Lee 57 tests 219 wickets @ 32.44
Stuart Clark 7 tests 37 wickets @ 18.62
Glenn Mc Grath 122 tests 555 wickets @ 21.65

Remembering the aussies batting line up's averages would be much better due to pitches being produced these days compared to then, the much smaller grounds and better bats used.

Also the Windies had players like Roger Harper, Eldine Baptiste, Paterick Patterson all bowlers who couldn't make the team at different times.

I'm a big fan of the Windies, and I would probably agree that the Windies team of the 80's (or even the Viv Richards-led team of the 90-91 period) was the best of all time.

But the stats above don't show the best WI lineup of the period. Courtney Walsh is the man, but I would probably include Curtly Ambrose over him if we're looking at the best selection from that period.

I think the best WI bowling attack from that period would be Holding, Marshall, Garner and Ambrose. And, as good as Warne and McGrath are, I don't think the Aussies could stack up to that kind of depth. Warne might be better than all of them, and McGrath would fit right in with Holding and Ambrose, but after that there's a dropoff, with Lee not quite up to the same standard.

Also, Larry Gomes averaged 39.63 in 60 tests.

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

To repeat: Windies didn't make their reputation playing cupcake sides like Zimbos, Deshies, etc
which the Aussies have been doing the last ten years. Also, the
Pommie, Paki, and Kiwi national teams were a lot stronger in the 80s
than they are now (in the 80s Pommies had the likes of Beefy, Randall,
Gower, Willis, etc. Compared to them the current Pommie side is
not much more than an "A" team).

 

[Chandu]

Re: Windies The Best Team

To repeat: Windies didn't make their reputation playing cupcake sides like Zimbos, Deshies, etc
which the Bandies have been doing the last ten years. Also, the
Pommie, Paki, and Kiwi national teams were a lot stronger in the 80s
than they are now (in the 80s Pommies had the likes of Beefy, Randall,
Gower, Willis, etc. Compared to them the current Pommie side is
not much more than an "A" team).

It's not Australia's fault that a number of these other countries haven't kept upto standards like they have. What are they supposed to do? Attempt playing different opposition like Canada, Netherlands, Botswana, Kenya?

Once again, I believe without a shadow of doubt that Lloyd and Viv Richards' West Indies were better teams than Ponting (and even Steve Waugh's) Australia. But I wouldn't make it sound accusatory towards Australia the way you're doing.

 

[trescothick101]

Re: Windies The Best Team

In the past 2 and a half years, Australia has only played 2 Test against Bangladesh, and nearly lost one! Though we won both, we didn't absolutely murder them. Players such as Shahriar Nafees batted very well, so the bowler's averages probably did not change much. Also, there were only 2 Australian centuries in the first test. One by Gilchrist to save the game (one of Gilchrist's favourite innings), and also one by Ponting when chasing over 300. I would hardly call these 'cheap'. Only 6 players' averages were better than their career averages. the 4 centurions (Gilchrist, Ponting, Gillespie, Hussey) and Gillespie (again, this time with the ball), and MacGill. Lee, Warne, Clark, Hayden, Clarke and Martyn had below par series.

You can only beat the opposition you come up against, and during Australia's run of 16 consecutive victories, only one of them was against Zimbabwe in 1999, when Zimbabwe were quite strong, and had the Flowers, Campbell and Streak. Australia then proceeded to clean sweep Pakistan, India, New Zealand and West Indies. All good teams. And if someone says, "Well, they didn't beat South Africa!", a year later after the epic India tour, Australia thrashed South Africa 3-0 Downunder, and then 2-1 (losing the dead rubber) in South Africa.

West Indies also defeated all teams that got into their path, and I would say they are logically and statistically just as good as Australia over the past 10 years. The two things that made these two sides great are their longevity, and their mentally strong games.

 

[aveslacker]

Re: Windies The Best Team

In the past 2 and a half years, Australia has only played 2 Test against Bangladesh, and nearly lost one! Though we won both, we didn't absolutely murder them. Players such as Shahriar Nafees batted very well, so the bowler's averages probably did not change much. Also, there were only 2 Australian centuries in the first test. One by Gilchrist to save the game (one of Gilchrist's favourite innings), and also one by Ponting when chasing over 300. I would hardly call these 'cheap'. Only 6 players' averages were better than their career averages. the 4 centurions (Gilchrist, Ponting, Gillespie, Hussey) and Gillespie (again, this time with the ball), and MacGill. Lee, Warne, Clark, Hayden, Clarke and Martyn had below par series.

You can only beat the opposition you come up against, and during Australia's run of 16 consecutive victories, only one of them was against Zimbabwe in 1999, when Zimbabwe were quite strong, and had the Flowers, Campbell and Streak. Australia then proceeded to clean sweep Pakistan, India, New Zealand and West Indies. All good teams. And if someone says, "Well, they didn't beat South Africa!", a year later after the epic India tour, Australia thrashed South Africa 3-0 Downunder, and then 2-1 (losing the dead rubber) in South Africa.

West Indies also defeated all teams that got into their path, and I would say they are logically and statistically just as good as Australia over the past 10 years. The two things that made these two sides great are their longevity, and their mentally strong games.

Not to take anything away from the Australian side of the 99-00 period, but when they beat the Windies in Australia to secure the record Test win streak, the Windies were pretty bad opposition ().

In the name of fairness, the W. Indies' streak was against England and Australia when neither team was in peak form (and came at a time when S. Africa wasn't competing internationally).

All that being the case, I'd still go with the West Indies, while not intending any disrespect to the Waugh and Ponting-led Australia teams (or even Bradman's Invincibles).

 

[Langarne]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Australia can't hold a candle up to Windies of 70s/80s. Windies back then
couldn't artificially jack up their averages playing the likes of Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, etc.

Wrong. The West Indies came good in the late 70's early 80's when the Australian team of that era was on the decline. 1972-73 Australia defeated the West Indies 2-0 in the Caribbean, 1975-76 Austalia won 4-0 in Australia, 1978 West Indies won 4-1 when Australia sent a third string team captained by Bob Simpson out of retirement due to the WSC saga. 1979 West Indies won 1-0 and in 1981-82 the series was drawn.

In fact your response is factually splattered all over the place. Australia do play Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, but I could have sworn they also play South Africa, England, West Indies, India, Pakistan, New Zealand and Sri Lanka and have done for the last 25 years, the last 10 of which they've been a street ahead of everybody else.

They achieved their record against the Pommies, New Zealand, Pakistan, etc. who were much better back in the
80s than they are now. The last few years Australia have just been a big
fish in a little pond of mediocre national teams.

For christ sake man do some research. You are looking quite the tool at the moment.

 

[Langarne]

Re: Windies The Best Team

To repeat: Windies didn't make their reputation playing cupcake sides like Zimbos, Deshies, etc
which the Bandies have been doing the last ten years. Also, the
Pommie, Paki, and Kiwi national teams were a lot stronger in the 80s
than they are now (in the 80s Pommies had the likes of Beefy, Randall,
Gower, Willis, etc. Compared to them the current Pommie side is
not much more than an "A" team).

You can repeat it until the cows come home. You're wrong and have lost virtually any credibility. In fact this effort is bordering on the stupidity levels of "the Yanks will save cricket."

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

"Australia couldn't hold up a candle to the Windies of the 70s/80s."

"For christ sake man do some research. "


Australia in Windies , 1982-3 Windies win 3-0

Windies in Australia, 1984-5 Windies win 3-1

Windies in Australia, 1988-9, Windies win 3-1

Australia in Windies, 1990-91, Windies win, 2-1

 

[Langarne]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Australia in Windies , 1982-3 Windies win 3-0

Windies in Australia, 1984-5 Windies win 3-1

Windies in Australia, 1988-9, Windies win 3-1

Australia in Windies, 1990-91, Windies win, 2-1

What all this garbage above has to do with the debate I have no idea. I can add as much irrelevance to the particular thread too by saying;

Aus d WI 2-1 1994-95

Aus d WI 3-2 1996-97

Aus dr WI 2-2 1998-99

Aus d WI 5-0 2000-01

Aus d WI 3-1 2002-03

Whats your point? Australia were on the wane in the 80's where as the WI have been on the wane ever since the 80's. Still don't know what any of that has to do with who was better out of the WI of the "late" 70's and 80's or Australia now. Also, you've contradicted yourself from a post earlier. You say that Australia have "jacked up" their averages because the opposition hasn't been as good. Well, err, do you think that maybe the WI team of the 80's were that much better cos' maybe the opposition wasn't as good? Personally I think the WI side of the "late" 70's early 80's would be slightly better than the Australian team of today, but not by much. There certainly wouldn't be much in it.

However, I think the Australian side of 3-4 years ago was better as far as dominance is concerned than the WI team of that era. But as for today, there is no argument. Australia are slightly off what they were in the early 2000's but still miles ahead of anyone else. There isn't a cup in the world that they're involved in that they don't currently hold.

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

World Series cricket in the 80s:


1980: Finals, Windies beat Pommies 2-0 (Australia failed to make finals)

1982: Finals, Windies beat Australia 3-1

1983 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-0

1985 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

1987 Finals, England beats Australia 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)

1989 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

 

[Stamislav]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Simon Wilde, a writer for The Times, recently ranked his top 10 Test teams of all time. The West Indies from 1983-85, under Clive Lloyd were ranked #1, while the 1986-91 Windies under Viv Richards were ranked #5. By comparison, Australia from 1999-2001 under Steve Waugh are at #2 and the 2005-07 side led by Ricky Ponting is at #7. Australian teams led by Bradman and Warwick Armstrong are also on the list. England under Michael Vaughan (2004-05) made the list at #9.

It's just one guy's opinion, feel free to disagree, but there are some good stats and should all find this interesting at least.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2094-2535280,00.html

 

[Langarne]

Re: Windies The Best Team

World Series cricket in the 80s:


1980: Finals, Windies beat Pommies 2-0 (Australia failed to make finals)

1982: Finals, Windes beat Australia 3-1

1983 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-0

1985 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

1987 Finals, England beats Australia 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)

1989 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

Again, whats your point?

Besides, no true cricket lover gives a rats about the pyjama stuff. If Australia did, they could also say they have 3 odi world cups and are entering this one as dual holders. But again, I don't see any relevance to this thread.

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

Well, "greatest cricket team in the world" just lost its fourth straight
ODI (couldn't even defend 336!). Did Lloyd's Windies side ever lose four
straight ODIs?

 

[Dave]

Re: Windies The Best Team

there was once a side who one 16 tests in a row........what about them?

 

[Dave]

Re: Windies The Best Team

World Series cricket in the 80s:


1980: Finals, Windies beat Pommies 2-0 (Australia failed to make finals)

1982: Finals, Windies beat Australia 3-1

1983 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-0

1985 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

1987 Finals, England beats Australia 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)

1989 Finals, Windies beat Australia 2-1

1991-92 Finals, Australia beat India 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)

1992-93 West Indies beat Australia 2-0

1995-96 Australia beat Sri Lanka 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)


1996–97 Pakistan beat West Indies 2-0 (Australia didn't make finals)


2000–01 Australia beat West Indies 2-0

2004–05 Australia beat Pakistan 2-0 (Windies didn't make finals)

 

[timmyj51]

Re: Windies The Best Team

there was once a side who one 16 tests in a row........what about them?

Ancient history. What have they done lately? Lost four ODIs in a row.