Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

shrek;408760 said:
So that is the end of season here .
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Sun never sets on crickets empire and we're just starting all over again down here of course.

Still cant believe my son has got a gig as legspinner for the very team and club we were trying to join and it involved a huge slice of luck at the last minute.

Otherwise he would have been playing for a seconds team in the third or fourth grade but now he is in the firsts of a strong club playing in second grade. That means official umpires and some turf pitches.

First impressions are important so he needs to show that mixture of spin and accuracy early on against his team mates in the next few weeks to really grab his spot and set a reputation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Good luck to him Macca, keep us posted as to how he gets on. I'm sure under your guidance he's going to give it a good crack of the whip, let's hope he spins it hard and gets those batsmen back in the sheds.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Dave, already a more solid looking action even after such a short time with the new run up. In particular I think you deserve praise for having the faith/determination to have a go at something different in the belief that it could yield improvements further down the line and I would say you are now in a far better position to make smaller adjustments to your action from that base than making changes based on your old run up and bowling action.

Couple of questions:-
how much do you feel your speed has dropped / needs to increase by?
do your shoulders feel different as you dont seem to be finishing off your action as much as previously - this isnt necessarily a problem, just an observation - would you put this down to the slower pace at present?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

macca;408841 said:
Sun never sets on crickets empire and we're just starting all over again down here of course.

Still cant believe my son has got a gig as legspinner for the very team and club we were trying to join and it involved a huge slice of luck at the last minute.

Otherwise he would have been playing for a seconds team in the third or fourth grade but now he is in the firsts of a strong club playing in second grade. That means official umpires and some turf pitches.

First impressions are important so he needs to show that mixture of spin and accuracy early on against his team mates in the next few weeks to really grab his spot and set a reputation.
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Great to hear! good luck to the two of you! Perhaps you can turn your arm over at times in their nets sometime.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

someblokecalleddave;408839 said:
Another video and for all you affcianado's of the Wrong Un the 3 white balls at the end are intentional, the one in the middle though wasn't!!!

YouTube - Leg Spin bowling.wmv

This new approach to my bowling is looking very very promising.
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is that your stock length Dave? you said about batsmen finding you easy to play last season, and its hard to tell for sure on the video as it could be a deceptive angle, but id say youre 1-2 yards too short on a consistent basis. your wrong'uns were about 4 yards too short lol. i found at the end of the season that when i really started to flight the ball and look to land it right on the batsmans toes that was when id cause the most problems. we arent fast enough to pitch the ball 2-3 yards from the bat, its when you really tempt the batsman to use his feet and come forwards that youll get the best results. also batsmen that dont come forwards will just give you their outside edge for free. just an observation. i set my length using a big block of wood to represent the batsman. i stand at the crease and mime a front foot drive shot. i then observe where front pad and bat are, and place the chunk of wood there to represent it. i then look to land the ball in a zone exactly 1-3 yards from the bat. any batsman that reaches is in huge trouble, if they come down the pitch with their feet then they invite a stumping WHEN it turns (not if. it doesnt always turn, but a confident leg spinner doesnt think that way!! :D), and if they stay back then it will terrorise their outside edge, and possibly off stump as well if it drifts a bit on them. once i add 7-12mph to my bowling which i plan to do over the winter, then il have to drop my length back a yard or 2 to compensate. but the extra pace will counteract that. at mid-30's speed which is where we are both probably at, you have to really pitch the ball full.

the action looks good, i can see where youre coming from on the lack of energy/pace comments you made the other day, but i reckon that bowling looks as quick as it ever has. you may not be as energetic in the delivery, but for whatever reason (more efficient action?) the ball looks to be carrying just the same! if anything you now have a lot more scope to increase your speed above where it was previously.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

i had a really good practice yesterday at the nets (which havent been taken down yet at my club :D). one of my best practices ever, but im not sure if the results were really as positive as they felt. only video will tell, and i didnt have my camera with me yesterday.

i hadnt bowled in 2-3 weeks due to being ill, no matches, bad weather, and a general lack of practice time. i rocked up with a fresh approach and started really focussing on driving my hips through the action. and it just clicked straight away!!

my shoulder and hip alignment is still not there, if anything my upper body now has a tendancy to rush through, rather than my legs lagging behind. but im really pushing off the back foot which i am bracing a lot more, im carrying my momentum through the action a lot more smoothly (rather than rocking from back to front in a clumsy slow way, it feels more like i just glide through the delivery stride and come out the other side a lot faster than before). my hips get forwards early, im onto my toes (i think) at the point of release, im staying a lot more upright, my arm is a lot more roundarm, and im ripping the ball harder than ever!! but mostly importantly, my hips are driving, which was my primary aim and the first thing i wanted to correct.

the action is really starting to feel good. i got a quick video on my phone but the quality is too poor to bother uploading. but the action looks miles better as well.

the best thing is that i was turning the ball around corners, more than ever before. and doing so with about 80% consistency!! ive got all the round-the-loop deliveries working apart from the wrong'un (which ive never had), but my flipper isnt good at present. my backspun "big leg break" is absolutely mighty at the moment though, turning huge and staying a foot off the floor. bearing in mind my overspun leg breaks can sometimes rear up to 6 feet off the pitch!! its pretty hard concrete.

i reckon my pace is up as well. its impossible to know without video to verify it, but its definitely a bit quicker than it was, so maybe 40mph, possibly a little more. if i was bowling at batsmen the way i did in nets yesterday i think id be unplayable. there were still occasional loose balls, but mostly im landing it on the right length (plus most loose balls were overpitched rather than underpitched), on the stumps, with nice drift, and LOTS of turn! :D

i cant wait to see what my fitness work in the gym will yield over the winter. thus far the technique is coming along nicely.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

TonyM;408846 said:
Dave, already a more solid looking action even after such a short time with the new run up. In particular I think you deserve praise for having the faith/determination to have a go at something different in the belief that it could yield improvements further down the line and I would say you are now in a far better position to make smaller adjustments to your action from that base than making changes based on your old run up and bowling action.

Couple of questions:-
how much do you feel your speed has dropped / needs to increase by?
do your shoulders feel different as you dont seem to be finishing off your action as much as previously - this isnt necessarily a problem, just an observation - would you put this down to the slower pace at present?
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Tony

I’m always willing to look at new avenues to improve what I’m doing and listen to other peoples opinions, so was never that happy with the skip. Other than the recent indication that the skip was similar to Tich Freemans, the only comments about it have always been negative. I’ve never been coached by anyone that has specific knowledge on wrist spinning (was booked in to have a day with Terry Jenner in July before his heart attack) but the general coaching that I had at my club picked up on the fact that my rotation was problematic and that my action through the crease meant that I moved over as I bowled and blocked the vision of the umpire. It may have been mentioned that I fall away as well. To be honest I struggle with tying to terminology to the actual movements, so when it may have been explained that I was falling away I wouldn’t really have known exactly what that meant and more importantly how that would have been detrimental to my bowling.

I’m in agreement with your comments with regards the future potential, I can see now that any changes that I was trying to make in the past may have been fundamentally undermined by the fact that I was bowling from an incorrect ‘base’. With so little time spent bowling without the skip, I can see that the potential given more time looks very promising, it’s a shame that I’ve only potentially got one game to maybe try it out. With regards the speed, it maybe slightly slower, but at the moment I’m not really trying to get the speed going and last night I was in trainers on damp dewy grass. I just want the action to feel familiar and smooth so I’m working on the speed slowly. What I have noticed is that if I put more emphasis in with the shoulders and tuck the leading arm in as I deliver the ball, the ball seems to be producing increased dip and this was apparent when I looked back at the video and saw the amount of bounce. At the moment I’m not flicking the ball so the amount of turn I’m producing is limited, but in time when I’m comfortable with the action I’ll bring in the wrist flick. But yes you’re right the shoulders don’t feel like they’re being used most of the time as dynamically as before.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Jim2109;408874 said:
is that your stock length Dave? you said about batsmen finding you easy to play last season, and its hard to tell for sure on the video as it could be a deceptive angle, but id say youre 1-2 yards too short on a consistent basis. your wrong'uns were about 4 yards too short lol. i found at the end of the season that when i really started to flight the ball and look to land it right on the batsmans toes that was when id cause the most problems. we arent fast enough to pitch the ball 2-3 yards from the bat, its when you really tempt the batsman to use his feet and come forwards that youll get the best results. also batsmen that dont come forwards will just give you their outside edge for free. just an observation. i set my length using a big block of wood to represent the batsman. i stand at the crease and mime a front foot drive shot. i then observe where front pad and bat are, and place the chunk of wood there to represent it. i then look to land the ball in a zone exactly 1-3 yards from the bat. any batsman that reaches is in huge trouble, if they come down the pitch with their feet then they invite a stumping WHEN it turns (not if. it doesnt always turn, but a confident leg spinner doesnt think that way!! :D), and if they stay back then it will terrorise their outside edge, and possibly off stump as well if it drifts a bit on them. once i add 7-12mph to my bowling which i plan to do over the winter, then il have to drop my length back a yard or 2 to compensate. but the extra pace will counteract that. at mid-30's speed which is where we are both probably at, you have to really pitch the ball full.

the action looks good, i can see where youre coming from on the lack of energy/pace comments you made the other day, but i reckon that bowling looks as quick as it ever has. you may not be as energetic in the delivery, but for whatever reason (more efficient action?) the ball looks to be carrying just the same! if anything you now have a lot more scope to increase your speed above where it was previously.
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No it's not the length I try and bowl in games - this is as you say about 1-2 yards short. I was surprised actually how many were short of the target, but it is a completely new action and feeling, I'm optimistic that it'll come good over the coming months, there's lots of aspects about it that are positive and very little that seems to be fundamentally wrong and as yet I'm not attempting to bowl it fast or spin it hard. It may as you say be already similar in pace as my 'Skip' bowling?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Ah no Dave your not losing the skip are you!!!! What would Tich Freeman think. On the same subject Ive just purchased a book on ebay titled "Tich Freeman and the decline of the leg break bowler" There are a few for sale on ebay for next to nothing if anyones interested.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

someblokecalleddave;408877 said:
With regards the speed, it maybe slightly slower, but at the moment I’m not really trying to get the speed going and last night I was in trainers on damp dewy grass. I just want the action to feel familiar and smooth so I’m working on the speed slowly.
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Great, it wasn't a 'speed up' comment, I think to feel familiar with the 'new you' is exactly the right approach. As you say in your response to Jim you are probably not too far short of your previous bowling speed which is great as it gives plenty of scope to find the optimal speed for you

someblokecalleddave;408877 said:
What I have noticed is that if I put more emphasis in with the shoulders and tuck the leading arm in as I deliver the ball, the ball seems to be producing increased dip and this was apparent when I looked back at the video and saw the amount of bounce. At the moment I’m not flicking the ball so the amount of turn I’m producing is limited, but in time when I’m comfortable with the action I’ll bring in the wrist flick. But yes you’re right the shoulders don’t feel like they’re being used most of the time as dynamically as before.
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As I said previously on the accuracy thread, the one thing I wouldnt lessen when working on changing a technique is the spinning action so if you can try to get back to spinning it (with wrist and fingers) and then in time worry about other things. Try not to be too worried about outcome whilst it is still a work in progress, if you drop a few a bit short that can be rectified in time but for now I would just focus on what is happening at the bowling end
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I linked a couple of new videos about Warne I found on site that wasn't YouTube a couple of days ago and was interested in some of the footage and comments regarding his initial performance as a spinner. The aspect that interested me, that was mentioned several times and seemingly was being high-lighted as being integral to his success was the aspect of media coverage and reputation. It seems as soon as the Gatting ball happened that was it, he was then propelled into the limelight and the Warne psychology machine kicked into place. Within a short period of time through all sorts of media outlets including a Nike advert, Shane Warne was being promoted as a wrist spinner with super-human abilities and it looks as though everyone bought into it. Needless to say he could bowl exceptionally well, and it may be the case that batsmen in those days may have not even considered having to face Wrist Spin an issue because it was such a rare occurrence at international and first class level? But the inference from the video clips is that Warnes reputation was enormously bolstered, along with his own confidence to the detriment of the batsmen’s confidence. It often looks as though when batsmen come out to face Warne, they have already thrown the towel in, a bit like yesterday with the Pakistani bats facing Swanne. Everyone talks up Swanne everyone including the batsmen KNOW that Swanne WILL take a wicket in the first over, it's a foregone conclusion - a given, and then you see the bloke take up his guard and play a shot (Alfridi) and lose his wicket to the first ball. The psychology involved seems pretty basic and one that Warne as we all know loves to capitalise on Article: Big Warnie parading on London streets. | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy as you can see in this article here. Warne wants and needs everyone to know that he will take your wicket, it doesn’t matter who you are and how you may play other spinners, when it comes to him it’s a different story – you know the story of Gatting, you know the ‘Ball of the century’. The ball of the century has been superseded by other unbelievable deliveries that people acknowledge as being as good as or better, but they don’t matter – what matters is the ‘Ball of the century’ and the psychological damage that it does to all other batsmen’s confidence, the fact that it is omnipresent and always there each time you face Warne.


So what I then started to consider was – can we do that on a local level, how can we and do some people ever gain notoriety to establish themselves as bowlers to fear on their club circuit? Have you got a reputation or are you aware that there is someone local to you that no-one wants to face? Is it possible to promote yourself in this manner and can it work in any other way other than word of mouth?
Via Facebook last night I had a bloke who used to play with me at Grays say that he’d seen my video clip of my new bowling action, he commented…….. Dave, we told you to lose the skip years ago, it’s looking a lot better and you’ve done well to change your action, I wouldn’t fancy facing you next year’. Or words to that affect. But this on a local level shows the potential of YouTube, but I’m thinking I want it to go wider and further and not to just one club, I want everyone in South Essex to know that I’m a threat. Any ideas?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

chippyben;408883 said:
"Tich Freeman and the decline of the leg break bowler"
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Interesting title. I might try and track that one down and read it. I love that period of cricket Tich Freeman played in. Crickets true golden age.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Dave - i dont think you can ever have that level of notoriety in Sunday cricket. its just not going to happen. the Sunday sides change in personnel with such regularity that people just dont know each other. also there is no respect for "friendly" players, youve got to play league to get any recognition because friendlies just dont matter in the grand scheme of things.

League cricket however....

the guys at my club who have been playing a long time (some of them are only my age, but have played since they were 13 in league cricket) often talk about other club players with great knowledge of their game. these are players that are legendary in local cricket, everyone knows who they are and how good they are/were.

so its definitely possible. its not going to happen overnight though. youd have to be a top performer in the local leagues for quite a long time. the easiest way though is to play county cricket!! there are quite a few players that have played county cricket (some even just a handful of games), and they are then instantly respected and strike fear into everyone. failing that, playing ECB Premier League is another sure fire way to scare opponents in lower leagues.

the only other way youll do it is to take lots of wickets against all teams, and then just wait for word of mouth to go around. in our local paper there is a summary of the top performing batsmen and bowlers in the area every week. if your name is in that list regularly then it will soon get known that way as well. the same applies to the league website which pulishes the best weekly performances for everyone to see. im not sure if your area has that though.

you can strike fear into teams that dont know you by rocking up first ball full of confidence, and getting one to turn a mile. you then need a quick wicket. the batsman is bound to tell the next batsman in to watch for the turn. then as soon as he sees one turn big he will be petrified. the non striker will already be scared lol. consistency is key though. Warne didnt just bowl the occasional ball that turned on a length. EVERY ball turned on a length, its just that some were more magical than others. if you turn the ball every time then all batsmen get scared. every game i played at the end of the season i had the batsmen scared. the only ones who werent were cocky youngsters who thought they were invincible. anyone over the age of 25 went into their shell though after the first couple of balls turned past their outside edge.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I'm thinking as you say in terms of young kids the age of my kids and the prospect that over a period of a couple of decades as you've described they do gain notoriety and local acclaim.

With regards you then, do you think that your name is being mentioned at other clubs or at least in the manner of - 'That Leg spinner at ******* club'?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Just about to head out for young blokes first training session with new club.Great day for bowling not too hot and a good seabreeze straight down the guts of his new nets. Only a stones throw from the Pacific Ocean.

( Dave ,speaking of the Pacific, we have had the best surf in years here lately, bit big though 9 to 12 foot off huge swells. Only lasted a week but perfect waves all over the place)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

someblokecalleddave;409001 said:
With regards you then, do you think that your name is being mentioned at other clubs or at least in the manner of - 'That Leg spinner at ******* club'?
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no, not at all! i dont think my name is known anywhere, there are still players at my club that dont know who i am lol. ive only played 2 or 3 league games, and bowled a total of 4 or 5 overs without a wicket.

theres a guy at a club somewhere that will probably remember me if i face him next season, but thats because i threw a ball at his head after about 6 overs of less than friendly banter, rather than because of my bowling lol.

but i think that if i get my chance next season and i take it with both hands then theres every chance of holding down a regular 1st XI spot, and if i get into the "performances of the week" table in the local paper half a dozen times or more then people will start to take notice. you rarely get in there with less than 3-for, the top performance is usually 5-7 wickets.

having read about Bryce McGain the other day ive also not given up on the chance of playing cricket at a higher level too. its probably not a hugely realistic dream, but il bet McGain was sitting in a bank aged 29 thinking he had no chance either! and 6 years later he played for his country. in the unlikely event that i get some county cricket, then i think il be known pretty well in club cricket, and i think if youre in that position then batsmen will definitely be petrified of facing you.

on the other hand, as a bowler im not scared of anyone. i faced an ECB premier league batsman in a friendly and felt that i could have got his wicket with a bit more control of my line and length! id gladly go up against an international batsman and back myself to win. in truth i know that id probably get destroyed, but id have nothing to lose! thats what would be expected of me. confidence is king :D
 
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