Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My last two practice sessions, on Thursday and yesterday, have probably been the most lucrative since I started bowling leg spin again. It would seem that my technique is much better, and I just need to work on my concentration, as when I do that right, I'm bowling quite consistently in a middle stump line, which is what I'm aiming for, and had quite a few spells where I was doing that regularly. I also tried a few flippers once in a while, and I seem to be getting the hang of those, though I'll need more practice to get those working consistently and accurately.

Also, I'm wondering, for those who have bowled it, do you think an 'off-spinning flipper' could be useful as something of a stock ball to left handers, without taking the risk of bowling regular googlies? I suppose a possible alternative is bowling small leg-spinners which are pretty straight, somewhat similar to Jim Laker's off-spinners when he got his 19 wicket haul, with perhaps an occasional googly as variation?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

The Off-Spinning Flipper I'd say is a very rare variation that hardly anyone is aware of and very few can bowl. I've tried it and left it alone realising that it would take a lot of work to get it working well. I think the wrong-un is a better ball mixed with your leg breaks and I think some of the others have said that the off-spinning flipper is too obvious out of the hand to mix with leg breaks? But then if you're bowling against lower order batsmen and in fact most batsmen they're not going to have a clue as to what you're bowling? Jim and Gundalf are the two on here that bowl the off-spinning flipper as I recall and they'd be able to say more about it I reckon? It's a difficult ball to bowl though.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

If it's hard to bowl, but still looks fairly similar to the normal leg break, then it's still probably worth working on. Though yeah, if it's fairly obvious, it may not be worth it, though on the other hand, it could still be useful as a stock ball for lefties, as generally batsmen seem to find it harder to face balls that turn away from them, but bowling googlies for a spell may be rather harmful. It would be quite interesting to know how much it turns, as well. If it's quite blatant, I suppose it could just be something that you practice a bit over time to see how well it goes, and perhaps try out once or twice in matches, given that batsmen generally won't know what you're doing, and perhaps use more regularly if it seems like it would be effective without that strength.

So it would be interesting to see what the people who bowl it have to say about its turn and obviousness, and perhaps how much use they've gotten out of it against batsmen.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

my off spinning flipper was turning as much as any off spinner ever achieves at the back end of last season. literally around corners, as much as my biggest leg breaks. its a very potent delivery when you get it right. but ive only managed to do that for one spell in about 20 attempts.

youve got to generate high revs at an awkward wrist angle, with a flipper action which is strenuous on the wrist and forearm anyway. and if it doesnt land on the seam then you can pretty much say goodbye to any turn. however i reckon it can be reasonably disguised with the right flipper action.

last year my flipper action was 3 fingers on top, thumb underneath, with the fingers extended. anyone with perfect eyesight and a knowledge of the delivery would have been able to pick it out of the hand. but not from the arm motion, youd only pick it from the fingers. and im yet to find a club batsman that can pick variations. a few reckon they can, but they never pick my zooter. this year my flipper action looks exactly the same as my leg break, apart from the thumb. im struggling for revs on my flipper though because the ball gets stuck in the palm. once i sort that out it will be back to where it was last year.

if you look at the overlaid video i produced last year of my stock leg break vs my off-spinning flipper then you can see how similar it can look
YouTube - Wrist Spin Bowling - Leg Break vs Off-Spinning Flipper - Overlaid Video Comparison

literally the only difference is the fingers on the ball, and the wrist flick on the leg break. everything else looks the same. 99% of batsmen wouldnt read it, or expect it. i shot the video prior to my discovery of how to bowl it most effectively (with more side spin), and there is insulating tape on the seam for demonstration purposes, hence the small turn off the pitch.

this season ive only tried it a handful of times. ive got enough problems with my stock delivery to sort out without all of the variations. my zooter is my primary variation at present, im working on the regular flipper, il add the off-spinning flipper back in later in the season. once its hot and sunny and i can practice in the evenings il probably be outside for an hour+ every day! clocks go forward end of this month, so it should stay light til about 8pm by the time the cricket season starts.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Shahbaz;391230 said:
If it's hard to bowl, but still looks fairly similar to the normal leg break, then it's still probably worth working on. Though yeah, if it's fairly obvious, it may not be worth it, though on the other hand, it could still be useful as a stock ball for lefties, as generally batsmen seem to find it harder to face balls that turn away from them, but bowling googlies for a spell may be rather harmful. It would be quite interesting to know how much it turns, as well. If it's quite blatant, I suppose it could just be something that you practice a bit over time to see how well it goes, and perhaps try out once or twice in matches, given that batsmen generally won't know what you're doing, and perhaps use more regularly if it seems like it would be effective without that strength.

So it would be interesting to see what the people who bowl it have to say about its turn and obviousness, and perhaps how much use they've gotten out of it against batsmen.
Click to expand...

The point you make about the googlies/wrong un is a valid. I kind of half expect that if faced with a left hander of any merit you kind of need to be in control or your wrong un and therein lays the dilemma of the Leg-spinner. Do you put in the hours to get your wrong un sussed running the risk of screwing up your leg break. Or, so you maybe look at the option you are right now - it's worth a go I reckon, because if you can produce a variation that you're able to control that is an off-spinner it's another ball in your armoury.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;391239 said:
my off spinning flipper was turning as much as any off spinner ever achieves at the back end of last season. literally around corners, as much as my biggest leg breaks. its a very potent delivery when you get it right. but ive only managed to do that for one spell in about 20 attempts.

youve got to generate high revs at an awkward wrist angle, with a flipper action which is strenuous on the wrist and forearm anyway. and if it doesnt land on the seam then you can pretty much say goodbye to any turn. however i reckon it can be reasonably disguised with the right flipper action.

last year my flipper action was 3 fingers on top, thumb underneath, with the fingers extended. anyone with perfect eyesight and a knowledge of the delivery would have been able to pick it out of the hand. but not from the arm motion, youd only pick it from the fingers. and im yet to find a club batsman that can pick variations. a few reckon they can, but they never pick my zooter. this year my flipper action looks exactly the same as my leg break, apart from the thumb. im struggling for revs on my flipper though because the ball gets stuck in the palm. once i sort that out it will be back to where it was last year.

if you look at the overlaid video i produced last year of my stock leg break vs my off-spinning flipper then you can see how similar it can look
YouTube - Wrist Spin Bowling - Leg Break vs Off-Spinning Flipper - Overlaid Video Comparison

literally the only difference is the fingers on the ball, and the wrist flick on the leg break. everything else looks the same. 99% of batsmen wouldnt read it, or expect it. i shot the video prior to my discovery of how to bowl it most effectively (with more side spin), and there is insulating tape on the seam for demonstration purposes, hence the small turn off the pitch.

this season ive only tried it a handful of times. ive got enough problems with my stock delivery to sort out without all of the variations. my zooter is my primary variation at present, im working on the regular flipper, il add the off-spinning flipper back in later in the season. once its hot and sunny and i can practice in the evenings il probably be outside for an hour+ every day! clocks go forward end of this month, so it should stay light til about 8pm by the time the cricket season starts.
Click to expand...

I can't wait, I've had a bowl today with my older son and that went pretty good - I'm bowling a lot more down the Leg-side at the minute just as an experiment - I'm getting to grips with the idea this year that you have to experiment with bowling the ball into different areas to expose the batsmans weaknesses - this is something I didn't do at all last year with any conviction or purpose. I've got a feeling too with all the recently bowling I've been doing that my accuracy has improved more than last year and that I get a little more spin as well, so muscles and ropey actions aside it's looking fairly promising.

I think it's been useful to have settled on the limited variations as well. Last year I was experimenting with all sorts and so far since September I've only been bowling 4 balls and 95% of the time it's been work on the Leg Break and only 5% of the time the variations. Today I had some real success with the wrong un which was nice as that seemed to have gone a bit AWOL in recent practices. The difference was that I've reverted back to bowling it in it's simplist form not attempting to make it turn massive and it worked a treat. Bowled as the last ball of each over my son had been almost edging the ball off the leg breaks for the first five balls and then on the last ball when he'd thought he'd sussed me and would get some bat on the final ball he was all at sea when I bowled a wrong un, both of them though just going over the top of middle and leg by millimetres! It's good that my sons are getting a bit bigger and stronger and we've reached a point now where we can't play outside the house anymore because they simply hit the ball too hard and high and they end up in peoples yards. The prospects for the summer look good.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

That actually sounds like a pretty interesting delivery, and looking at the video, it doesn't seem overly conspicuous either, so it may be worthwhile against both right and left handers. What's most interesting is probably it having a lot of spin and turn, could you elaborate on how you now bowl it more effectively?

If one can get it to turn quite far, it could be a very useful variation, especially against lefties, and perhaps worth the extra practice.

Also, would the 'zooter' be what is often called the 'slider' (backspun round-the-loop ball?), or a ball propelled by the palm, given that I've seen both definitions used?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Shahbaz;391360 said:
That actually sounds like a pretty interesting delivery, and looking at the video, it doesn't seem overly conspicuous either, so it may be worthwhile against both right and left handers. What's most interesting is probably it having a lot of spin and turn, could you elaborate on how you now bowl it more effectively?

If one can get it to turn quite far, it could be a very useful variation, especially against lefties, and perhaps worth the extra practice.

Also, would the 'zooter' be what is often called the 'slider' (backspun round-the-loop ball?), or a ball propelled by the palm, given that I've seen both definitions used?
Click to expand...

its hard to explain how i do it. i cock my wrist really strangely, but when i actually deliver it the wrist corrects itself prior to release and actually has no bearing on it at all. i dont think anyway, video suggests it doesnt. you have to imagine you are bowling with a leg break motion, but youre an off spinner. its really tough to explain, youll either figure it out or you wont.

get yourself a white ball and put black tape on the seam, and perpendicular to the seam. then just try bowling it. watch the tape to check where your seam angle is at, and which direction it rotates. its essentially just a flipper turned sideways though.

and my "zooter" is what some call a "slider". however ive decided to go with Shane Warnes naming of the deliveries because the word slider is used to describe everything from a backspinner to an arm ball, basically anything that goes straight which isnt a top spinner or a flipper!! zooter just categorises it more specifically.


as a side note, net practice was cancelled tonight. i didnt find this out until id made the 25 minute drive over there. but its probably a blessing in disguise. no cricket practice until at least saturday now, so hopefully my leg will have mostly recovered by then.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Whereas I had a superb net session, started out good bowling against one of the off-spinners who came out of the net shaking his head saying 'yeah, I can't pick any of your deliveries - I just haven't got a clue'. I forced edges and bowled him numerous times. Then the next couple of blokes I kind of lost focus on what was going on and didn't like the fact that there was 5 of us in the net, so ended up trying different things in a half hearted manner. Then the last bloke to bat was one of the 1st team league batsman. I bowled last out of the 4 that was in the net and by the time I'd stepped up to bowl had already seen that anything that was on the off-side was being smashed to the boundary. So the order of the day was on his legs and sure enough he struggled, a few that I put down the offside he didn't handle them too well either and almost every ball that he got hold of seemed to be flying up more than along and would have ended up in zones where there'd be a standard fielder in my fielding set up.

At the end I said to the bloke - so what was the bowling like then? He came back with a load of compliments saying that in the 20 minutes he was in the net I'd bowled 2 bad balls. He said that all the balls that were on the leg side were back of a length and would have all hit a hankerchief each time if there'd been one on the floor, he said that almost all of the off-side balls he'd edged and mishit and said that they'd have all landed in catching areas. His overall assessment was that it was excellent bowling and he'd have had to have blocked almost everything in a game or run the risk of sweeping it and conceded you'd have easily blocked that option with a fielder. So that was all good stuff and again looks exceptionally promising for the new season. The only ball that I couldn't really get going was the flipper and that's the one that cost me the 2 bad balls while he was in the net.

The leg held out and what with all the stretching I've been doing both legs and the dodgey heel are holding up alright and things are looking on track again.
 
Sliders need help

when i try to bowl sliders i get stuck in between a leg break an sliders and it is way off i can bowl my googlys leggies toppies kina flippers (there to slow) so i cant do a iffrent variation help
 
Re: Sliders need help

legspinking;391729 said:
i can bowl my googlys leggies toppies
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That's a good start and that's enough variation to keep you going for a while, without worrying too much about sliders and flippers. You were saying you are having trouble flighting the ball, so you need to work on your stock legbreak and sorting that loop out.

Best place to discuss this is on the wrist spin thread(s)
 
Re: flat leggys

legspinking;391726 said:
i bowl leg spin and there always flat how can i get flight when i try they miss the pitch :mad:
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slow everything down is the first place to start. without seeing your bowling its impossible to tell for sure, but if i had to guess id bet your action is more that of a pace bowler than a spinner. you probably try to rush through the action and impart too much pace on the ball, and the end result is that you bowl it downward.

slow everything down, try to stay as upright as possible at the point of release, and look to rotate through the action. and then there is the old saying of "spin up". it doesnt have to fly up 10 feet above the batsmans eyeline, personally i think too much flight can be as bad as not enough. when im batting i am very comfortable against very loopy bowlers because it gives you time to move your feet, and flat bowlers are easy to play because you know its not likely to turn much or move in flight. the ideal flight is JUST above the batsmans eyeline, somewhere around this sort of flight...
YouTube - Leg Spin Bowling - Leg Break 1 (Feb 2010)

its enough flight that the ball has time to dip and drift, the batsman has to look up, then down again so he cant just focus on the pitch, and if he does he will lose the ball in flight. but its not overly flighted so that there is no pace on the ball, and the batsman still doesnt have much time to adjust to it.
flight and accuracy essentially come down to timing. you have to time the moment of release so that the ball travels at the correct trajectory, and on the correct line. simply trying to bowl with more flight at the same pace will obviously result in a fuller length which has to be compensated for. hence slowing everything down, then gradually building back up to your natural pace.

the only way you can increase pace and maintain the same flight is to spin the ball harder and generate dip. so you have to be patient and practice, practice, practice. gradually it should all come together, and youll be far more effective than you are with a flatter trajectory. so stick at it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

cool i will my leg breaks turn quite a bit and pitch where i want then to i'll work on it throught the off season though :)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dip is the key, learn the Top-Spinner and you'll probably be able to see it happening and you'll see how much difference putting top spin on the ball has, a ball that feels like and looks to the batsman as though it's going to arrive at his feet will drop short and then because of the in-coming trajectory has suddenly steepened, will bounce at an increased angle the opposite to the in-comimg angle.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinking;391975 said:
cool i will my leg breaks turn quite a bit and pitch where i want then to i'll work on it throught the off season though :)
Click to expand...

once you add flight youll find more turn, and also find bounce as well. and thats without taking into account the effects of dip as well! dip increases turn and bounce even further.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

yeah top spin wil definitely help you get the dip i'd practice bowling different flights if i were you just to get used to doing it in the off season as the control of flight allows you to tease the batsmen alot especially if your accurate.


Also just updated my blog on this site http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t59106-7/(bit of me attmepting to bat, lol), hoping to get some video of me bowling at sometime in the next week as i'm curious to see what changes there are.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Another interesting thing in the zimbabwe odi today, a wrist spinner who can only bowl googlies a true googly bowler in the modern game, shows that losing the leg break can also happen at the top levels.

the guys name btw is timycen maruma.
 
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