Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Had my first training today and bowled for the first time since March.

Boy was I rusty. Bowling full toss after full toss followed by short wide balls spinning away. I got a few in the right areas, but I'll be looking to improve over the coming weeks before the season starts.

Sean you need to keep your hand in as such in the off-season! Doesn't your team have net sessions a few months before the season starts? Surely being in Australia (I think) you can bowl all through the off-season whereas with us here in the UK we have trouble because of the rain, snow, ice, frost, flooding and stuff whereas you've got back to back sunshine 365 days a year in Australia?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i usually try to start my spell with an attempted huge leg break. il look to pitch it somewhere inline with the stumps (although my control isnt necessarily there enough to dictate this lol) on a full length with plenty of flight and get it to turn as big as possible. my reasoning being that if i can get one to turn big off the first ball then the batsman is going to be thinking about it. from there on it wont matter if im not turning it much, hes always going to wonder when the next big leg break is coming.

if i dont nail it first ball then il keep trying until i do. my first over is generally just me attempting to find some rhythm. so i try to keep it simple, bowling my stock leg break and searching for a good length, ideally not getting smashed for runs.

i generally only get 3-4 overs per match, so lets call it 24 balls. out of those 24 balls il probably bowl roughly 18-20 stock leg breaks (45 degree overspun seam), a couple of backspun big leg breaks, 3-4 top spinners, 1-2 sliders, and maybe 1 top-spun flipper off-break.

it all depends on whether i find any rhythm though. if im dropping the ball all over the place and bowling wides and getting hit for runs then il tend to forget about ripping the ball and just look for accuracy, and maybe try some top spinners because they are easier to land accurately. if im landing it roughly where i want it then il think about occasionally mixing it up with my full repertoire.

an aspect of my bowling that maybe some other leg spinners would disagree with, is that i dont necessarily have 100% control of my variations during practice. certainly my flipper off-break is about 20% consistent lol. but il still try it during a match. lots of guys wont even consider using a delivery in a match situation unless they have it near enough perfected in the nets. i view matches as a real-world practice session though. im only playing friendlies however, if i was playing league and the results mattered then maybe id be more conservative. in the nets batsmen play stupidly, so you can never gauge the effectiveness of a delivery properly. in a match you can.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i usually try to start my spell with an attempted huge leg break. il look to pitch it somewhere inline with the stumps (although my control isnt necessarily there enough to dictate this lol) on a full length with plenty of flight and get it to turn as big as possible.

My young bloke starts off his plan to a batsman with the biggest legbreak for the same reason but his actual bowling spell I try to get him to follow Philpotts advise to young legspinners and pitch the first few up outside off stump just to start off but I dont push that theory just suggest it. More often than not he starts his spell with a big legbreak.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i found out something strange about my bowling today whilst practicing. i had a bad session, it started out ok but got worse and worse, more through frustration i think than anything else. i was bowling the occasional awesome leg break with loads of turn, but 95% of the time they were just skidding on, and it was driving me nuts. so i started to completely disect my action and try to figure out why on earth it keeps happening (not just in practice, it happens in matches too).

some days i just hook everything up and every ball turns. but ive noticed this is only in one set of nets with a soft'ish and grippy surface. and i think ive nailed it...

when i deliver the ball out of my hand, the seam is almost always (99% of the time) absolutely perfect, it spins about itself, no deviation (e.g. the seam isnt wobbling at all). this is something that ive focussed very hard on achieving, and something that i am very proud of, especially when i watch professional leggies with the seam scrambled all over the shop.

ironically, the greatest aspect of my bowling is also its downfall if the ball isnt presented with the seam perfectly vertical (it doesnt matter what direction/angle it faces) then the ball lands on the leather face, and not on the seam. when this happens it doesnt grip and it just skids on. apparently today (not sure if the same is true on other days, i couldnt find any kind of form today at all) the seam was leaning backwards about 10-15 degrees, and on solid concrete the ball wouldnt turn. on the soft nets i practice at on Thursday evenings the surface is softer, so i reckon the ball "digs in" to the surface on landing and thus the seam still partly makes contact.

so i tried purposely scrambling the seam by an inch, and low and behold, super consistent turn!!! also, ive been trying to bowl wrong'uns and i cant do it. instead, the ball just comes out as a scrambled leg break. and last week when i was trying this i was getting huge amounts of turn for no apparent reason! now i know why.

the next thought however is the one thats going to bug me all evening - do professional spin bowlers PURPOSELY scramble the seam slightly because theyve made the same discovery (or been coached by someone who has) that i have made today? or is it just that this is how they learnt to bowl, its always worked for them, so theyve never bothered to try and perfect their seam technique? Shane Warne always tried to keep the seam perfect, his action was just a LOT more consistent than mine currently is lol. so i know it is the optimum way to bowl, it just requires perfection in every aspect of the delivery. the slightly scrambled seam is more consistent, and probably more consistent on every surface. so if theres a pitch that wont take much turn it may be better.

on a good day however i still get the ball to turn consistently with the perfect seam. my second discovery was that my action is incredibly sensitive to minor variations in my timing. in other words, if my rhythm and timing isnt spot on, the ball doesnt come out perfectly upright, and it wont turn. also, a few weeks ago i found the largest improvement in my bowling to date which was in the form of a proper follow-through after my delivery. it turns out this was simply because id transfer my weight and momentum forward through my front foot at the point of delivery, which would angle my hand correctly for the seam to land upright! i tried bowling today with my hand bent underneath a little and it sort of corrected the issue.

this all also answers something else that was bugging me, which was why can i see the ball in flight with a perfect seam, and see that ive absolutely ripped it, it drifts in flight (so i know its got big revs on it), yet goes dead straight off the pitch.

some of that might even be relevant to other leggies for you to ponder about your action if youre struggling for consistent turn but are spinning the ball well in flight.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i found out something strange about my bowling today whilst practicing. i had a bad session, it started out ok but got worse and worse, more through frustration i think than anything else. i was bowling the occasional awesome leg break with loads of turn, but 95% of the time they were just skidding on, and it was driving me nuts. so i started to completely disect my action and try to figure out why on earth it keeps happening (not just in practice, it happens in matches too).

some days i just hook everything up and every ball turns. but ive noticed this is only in one set of nets with a soft'ish and grippy surface. and i think ive nailed it...

when i deliver the ball out of my hand, the seam is almost always (99% of the time) absolutely perfect, it spins about itself, no deviation (e.g. the seam isnt wobbling at all). this is something that ive focussed very hard on achieving, and something that i am very proud of, especially when i watch professional leggies with the seam scrambled all over the shop.

ironically, the greatest aspect of my bowling is also its downfall if the ball isnt presented with the seam perfectly vertical (it doesnt matter what direction/angle it faces) then the ball lands on the leather face, and not on the seam. when this happens it doesnt grip and it just skids on. apparently today (not sure if the same is true on other days, i couldnt find any kind of form today at all) the seam was leaning backwards about 10-15 degrees, and on solid concrete the ball wouldnt turn. on the soft nets i practice at on Thursday evenings the surface is softer, so i reckon the ball "digs in" to the surface on landing and thus the seam still partly makes contact.

so i tried purposely scrambling the seam by an inch, and low and behold, super consistent turn!!! also, ive been trying to bowl wrong'uns and i cant do it. instead, the ball just comes out as a scrambled leg break. and last week when i was trying this i was getting huge amounts of turn for no apparent reason! now i know why.

the next thought however is the one thats going to bug me all evening - do professional spin bowlers PURPOSELY scramble the seam slightly because theyve made the same discovery (or been coached by someone who has) that i have made today? or is it just that this is how they learnt to bowl, its always worked for them, so theyve never bothered to try and perfect their seam technique? Shane Warne always tried to keep the seam perfect, his action was just a LOT more consistent than mine currently is lol. so i know it is the optimum way to bowl, it just requires perfection in every aspect of the delivery. the slightly scrambled seam is more consistent, and probably more consistent on every surface. so if theres a pitch that wont take much turn it may be better.

on a good day however i still get the ball to turn consistently with the perfect seam. my second discovery was that my action is incredibly sensitive to minor variations in my timing. in other words, if my rhythm and timing isnt spot on, the ball doesnt come out perfectly upright, and it wont turn. also, a few weeks ago i found the largest improvement in my bowling to date which was in the form of a proper follow-through after my delivery. it turns out this was simply because id transfer my weight and momentum forward through my front foot at the point of delivery, which would angle my hand correctly for the seam to land upright! i tried bowling today with my hand bent underneath a little and it sort of corrected the issue.

this all also answers something else that was bugging me, which was why can i see the ball in flight with a perfect seam, and see that ive absolutely ripped it, it drifts in flight (so i know its got big revs on it), yet goes dead straight off the pitch.

some of that might even be relevant to other leggies for you to ponder about your action if youre struggling for consistent turn but are spinning the ball well in flight.

Bloody good question. The importance of getting the seam to rotate in the correct manner in order to grip the surface is stressed by Philpott and he gives an angle to attempt in one of his books doesn't he? Experimentation by each individual is neccessary.
I was always told the importance of perfect saturn like rotation of the seam and I thought in the recent test series Hauritz was getting more of that than Swann. But as you point out slomo and personal observation might mean we have to rethink its importance.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have seen warne in the IPL bowl with a scrambled seam, but maybe it was a ploy or maybe it is because it he was past his best. From the old videos I cannot see grimmett's seam position but I do not get the impression it was perfect. Also Murali bowls with a scrambled seam but is the one that gets most turn of all the off spinners.

The spinner I have seen with the best seam position is Harbhajan Singh and he really gets the ball to spin like a top as regards the revolutions imparted. My impresion is that without a correct seam position it is more difficult to get drift and dip.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Most of that may be true, but the only part I can relate to is the fact that subtle changes in the position of the hand and the grip can bring about enormous changes in the outcome and perhaps this is because it affects the seam in the way that you describe? The earlier point with regards the big leg break rings true, I think if I could guarantee 100% that I'd be able to turn the ball big on the first delivery I'd use the same approach. Also true is your description with regards the inaccuracy - my mate who I bowl alongside sometimes 'Wizard', he's got very poor accuracy, but it's in part due to the fact that he is trying to go big with every ball and because it is turning big he forces loads of errors, but then every now and then he'll pitch outside of leg and it'll come in across the stumps viciously unsettling the batsmen.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

looking at videos though Muralitharan aims for a perfect seam position, when you watch him in slow motion the ball comes out absolutely perfect when he wants it to. the same as Shane Warne. every now and again theres a scrambled one, its either proof that no-one is perfect, or its intentional. these guys also achieve large amounts of turn with a scrambled seam as well though. but you watch the Shane Warne balls of the century and the millenium and the seam is bolt upright, rotating perfectly on axis, at a perfect 90 degrees.

i really cant make my mind up, i think that the aim has got to be perfect seam discipline, coupled with perfect technique in every other area to make it work. thats what im going to aim for. in a match situation (and not in a practice situation) if im struggling for turn then maybe il alter things slightly. its not like its harmful to my action, its literally moving the ball about 5mm in my grip. on match day i think youve got to go with whatever works, but in practice its got to be a pursuit for perfection.

there is one other useful aspect to this discovery for me though, and thats the possibility that on early season English wickets, which are alledgedly hard to find turn on due to being soft and green (ive not bowled on one yet) the scrambled seam is probably more likely to get results. it gives a margin for error.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I always find I bowl far better in damp green conditions rather than the current dry hard grassless conditions. With regards the seam - yeah if you can bowl consistently like that it's got to be the best way to go because you'd only have to change your action marginally and you'd be bowling with a scrambled seam.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

had a bowl at the nets this evening. just me for most of the time, i was bowling really well. i find that after about an hour of constant bowling at 100% effort i start to lose my rhythm a bit. i tense up, everything becomes a bit clunky, i dont bowl smoothly. and consequently my bowling goes downhill.

anyway, one of the kids who plays on Sundays sometimes showed up with his dad and he was practicing his bowling. then at the end he batted for a while and i bowled at him for about 20 mins. somehow i managed to find enough in the reserve tank to bowl some good ones.

i spent most of today looking at my length. i put a cone on the ground just beyond the furthest point where i could reach with my bat without stepping out of the crease. i definitely bowl too full, which explains why i got hit for so many runs last weekend. the combination of width and length to a left hander meant it was easy to hit me. ive not "fixed" it today, but im landing fewer deliveries too full, and more were landing around the cone. at least the ones that land full are also my biggest turners though so if the batsman doesnt get into a good position theyre in trouble, lots of them hit the stumps.

anyway, i was bowling at the kid and bowling pretty well. i landed a handful of absolute cherries. one of them was flighted inline with leg stump, drifted out about 8-12" and pitched on what we have now established is a "good" length. the batsman took a big stride to try and meet the pitch and got squared up bigtime and it turned huge through the gate. ended up going over the top of off stump by about 3" for what would have been a stumping. another one did the same but pitched inline with middle and turned away outside.

i got one though that was flighted inline with the stumps with loads of top spin on it, he tried to sort of sweep me but the ball just dropped out of the sky on him, fell a good 2 yards shorter than he was expecting and bounced huge. it almost hit him in the head lol, but he had his glove there to cover his face and it took a huge glove to where slip would be. probably the best ball ive ever bowled. you know youre bowling well when youve got a batsman flinching in the nets to slow paced leg spin as if hes facing 90mph bouncers!!

i also bowled my first awesome top spun flipper off-break!! normally they turn back in by inches, but i got one to turn back in from just outside off stump to going past leg stump. the batsman was totally stunned by it, had no idea the ball was going to do that. so im getting better with my "wrong'un" now. the only reason they dont all turn big is because i dont land the ball on the seam.

it still remains to be seen if i was just bowling well and landing the ball on the seam today, or if the surface at these nets is just more forgiving than hard concrete. im not sure if im playing on Sunday, but if i am i guess the wicket will tell me the more definitive answer.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I've been looking to see how much it is to hire a high speed camera and it's around 800 quid a week, but some of them run at 150,000 frames per second which is lunacy, can you imagine what that would be like to see all your releases at that kind of speed and how useful that might be to analyse what you're doing? One of the sites even had some example clips of people playing tennis, the potential is amazing, but so too is the price.

Ashtead Technology - Ashtead Technology Rental: Remote Visual Inspection Division

I've got an interesting match this Sunday. I'm not going to be playing with my own team as I've been invited to play with my sons team in an inter-club match. It's going to be interesting on a couple of fronts -

1. I've seen this lot play inter-club before and man do they go at it, they are really aggressive and ultra competitive, so that'll be interesting.
2. They've all seen me practicing in the outfield while my kids are training and a lot of them read my blogs and they're all gagging to face me and hit me out of the park.

So all in all an interesting prospect.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I've been looking to see how much it is to hire a high speed camera and it's around 800 quid a week, but some of them run at 150,000 frames per second which is lunacy, can you imagine what that would be like to see all your releases at that kind of speed and how useful that might be to analyse what you're doing? One of the sites even had some example clips of people playing tennis, the potential is amazing, but so too is the price.

Ashtead Technology - Ashtead Technology Rental: Remote Visual Inspection Division

I've got an interesting match this Sunday. I'm not going to be playing with my own team as I've been invited to play with my sons team in an inter-club match. It's going to be interesting on a couple of fronts -

1. I've seen this lot play inter-club before and man do they go at it, they are really aggressive and ultra competitive, so that'll be interesting.
2. They've all seen me practicing in the outfield while my kids are training and a lot of them read my blogs and they're all gagging to face me and hit me out of the park.

So all in all an interesting prospect.

there is a Casio compact camera that is capable of shooting movies at 1000 FPS!! id imagine that could probably get some interesting results, and its about £200-250. At_a_Glance - EX-FS10GYDDA - Exilim High Speed - Digital Cameras - CASIO

youre in the photography industry right? see if you can borrow one

as for £800 per week. i reckon you could find 20 people that would want to have a bowl and see themselves in super slow motion. if you could get 20 people together for a day, and there is an option for day rental at say £200. thats £10 each. id pay double that for even 1000-1500fps. i dont think you need to go any more than that, at 240fps on my camera you can see pretty much everything in detail. 150,000fps would be insane, it would take almost 7 hours to watch a single delivery at 25fps playback!!!

maybe its something to try next spring. see if all the (UK based) guys that post on this thread, plus anyone else that wants to have a go can meet up for a day long net session with a rented super high speed camera. what we really need is to find someone who knows a Sky Sports cameraman who can borrow one of their cameras.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The idea of us all getting together was an idea that I had this evening, you and me are not a million miles away from each other and it'd just be good fun and useful to meet up and bat and bowl against each other and as you say if there was a handful of us and we all chipped in with some cash things might start to happen. But even if we just all met up on an outfiled somewhere and had a knock about that'd be good I reckon? It's definitely something to think about over the off-season?

A kind of 'bigcricket England first XI'

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

if we could get 11 together we could probably play an exhibition match against someone lol. however we may need to mix things up a little from just leg spinners.

a pre-season BigCricket training session has got to be on the cards though. probably not until spring next year now as the weather is against it. but id be up for it.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

looks like im not playing this Sunday, the 2 Sunday XI's have merged into one because its the end of the season so there is twice as many players after half as many places, and half of them are first teamers. so that sucks a bit, i quite fancied a game after my practice this week. that might be it now for the season!

guess il just have to keep at the practicing and wait for my chance next April. either that or move to Australia lol.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I've been lucky in that I had the option of 2 games. My sons play for a team local to me Basildon & Pitsea whereas I play for Grays about 10 miles away. In a lot of ways it would make more sense to Play for Basildon as they're a decent bunch of blokes just as much as the Grays bokes are. But as Basildon's on my doorstep it would be a lot more economical unless of course the annual fees are more. So this week after a few lack lustre games at Grays where there seems to be a bit of an end of season hang-over or cross-over with Satan's game (Football) and they can't manage playing football in the morning and then go straight into a game of cricket which as far as I'm concerned confirms that football players for the best part are a bunch of woos's. So with the prospect of another mediocre game with the Grays lot who just don't seem to be up for it I jumped at the chance to play with Basildon blokes. The other thing which I've only found out in the last 2 days is that it's an inter-club match and I've watched these blokes before playing inter-club and they really go for it (Have I said all this before)? Anyway I'm really looking forward to it.

I had a practice tonight and that went well so, it could be fun!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

inter-club matches seem to be the most fun. i played in one for my club, my first proper game in fact. its even better when youve got fathers and sons playing on opposing sides trying to get one over on each other lol. the banter is always good too. you cant really do that against normal opposition in case they take offence

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Whoa! Check this out a 1000 frames a second digital video camera for less than 200 quid! Still researching might come up with something better still.

http://www.binoculars-uk.co.uk/acatalog/Casio_Exilim_EX-FC100.html?gclid=CJKK4-qg_JwCFZQA4wod9VRz1A

Here's some more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSJsBTutZU0 it looks as though there's a big loss of quality at the 1000th of a second setting but the lesser settings look interesting. Look at the water splash in the bucket and the cats - this is all pretty fast moving stuff and I reckon you'd be able to set this camera up and analyse your release very easily and in a lot of detail. Looks very interesting.

This one does it for me - check this out this is in extremely poor light http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIjWyV78zaQ&feature=related right where's my credit card.................

http://www.photographybay.com/2009/03/04/casio-ex-fc100-hands-on-review/ watch the cheerleaders - the hands and hair - you can see everything in detail. Go on youtube and type in Casio EX FC 100 and you'll get loads of examples of the camera in use, it looks ideal. I've just got to justify paying 170 quid on a camera now to the wife, if she susses that I'm buying to analyse my bowling she wont be impressed!!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Whoa! Check this out a 1000 frames a second digital video camera for less than 200 quid! Still researching might come up with something better still.

Binoculars UK Ltd. Casio Exilim EX-FC100

Here's some more YouTube - Casio Exilim EX FC100 it looks as though there's a big loss of quality at the 1000th of a second setting but the lesser settings look interesting. Look at the water splash in the bucket and the cats - this is all pretty fast moving stuff and I reckon you'd be able to set this camera up and analyse your release very easily and in a lot of detail. Looks very interesting.

This one does it for me - check this out this is in extremely poor light YouTube - CASIO HI-SPEED EXILIM EX-FC100 for bowling right where's my credit card.................

Casio EX-FC100 Hands-On Review Photography Bay | Digital Camera Reviews, News and Resources watch the cheerleaders - the hands and hair - you can see everything in detail. Go on youtube and type in Casio EX FC 100 and you'll get loads of examples of the camera in use, it looks ideal. I've just got to justify paying 170 quid on a camera now to the wife, if she susses that I'm buying to analyse my bowling she wont be impressed!!!

thats the next model up from the camera i linked you to the other day, but strangely it appears to be much cheaper. in fairness, the quality doesnt look great, but its still acceptable enough. you can clearly see the basic details, even if they arent crystal clear. all we really need to be able to see is the seam of the ball and fingers. nothing intricate. at 1000fps that may be tricky, but its got optical zoom. at 210fps the quality isnt a patch on my Sony camcorder (which does 240fps), but its almost half the price!!

P.S. you were watching the cheerleader video purely for camera research, right? you can see "everything in detail" eh? i believe you, millions wouldnt

heres some eBay auctions that are cheaper than the UK shops i can see selling it on Google.

CASIO Exilim EX-FC100 High Speed Slim 9MP FC-100 #C088 on eBay (end time 02-Oct-09 04:39:27 BST)
NEW~ CASIO EX FC100 BLACK DIGITAL VIDEO CAMERA +4GB SD on eBay (end time 19-Sep-09 17:59:00 BST)
Casio Exilim EX-FC100 Digital Camera Black New 9.1MP on eBay (end time 02-Oct-09 15:44:22 BST)

or a trustworthy shop link, for £200...
Buy a Casio Exilim High-Speed EX-FC100 (Stylish, Black, 9 MP, 5x Optical Zoom), #EX-FC100B - eXpansys UK


one other thing about using cameras with super fast shutter speeds, as im sure youre well aware anyway - youve got to have TONS of extra light on the subject!! otherwise its really underexposed and the quality suffers. the more light there is, the better the quality of the shot. e.g. outside on a very sunny day will be perfect, inside a house in the evening with incandescant lighting results in complete darkness on the picture lol, you cant even see the ball, let alone the seam!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

You obviously know a bit about photography! Yeah the cheerleaders was research!

I think I've come across this camera on-line new for 170 quid.