Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have a leg break which a constantly work on, but which spins too much, and my smaller leg break bounces too much. my top spinner bounces too much as well. So i cannot hit the stumps (which is the most common form of dismissal at my level) or get an lbw. I have also heard it takes a long time to prefect, so i thought i would try to get a headstart to bowling a very good one.

Grimmet more than a decade, Benaud 4 years, Warne a Month me a couple of months. With the knowledge that it is possible and that any Joe Soap can do it, it makes it far easier to learn. Did you look at the videos?

YouTube - Flipper Variation Bog Standard
YouTube - Clarrie Grimmett Flipper Wrist spin bowling A

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

im not convinced theres such a thing as turning the ball "too much". Shane Warne and Stuart MacGill are fairly recent proof. they both turned the ball miles. theres also no such thing as too much bounce, especially against younger players. i bowl at a few of the kids at my club in the nets, some of them are fairly short. the extra bounce causes them real problems because its often above their waist! you can make use of both turn and bounce, the challenge is figuring out how to cause problems with it.

if you need to hit the stumps then you have 2 natural variations you can play on. the first is to aim the ball further outside leg stump so that it hits the stumps after it has turned. however it opens up easier shots to the batsman on the leg side, but if he misses then hes in trouble. it completely rules out LBW though. you can try it every now and again to try and catch the batsman by surprise and bowl him around his legs.

the second option is to bowl your big turning leg breaks one after another after another, maybe 4 in the first 4 balls of an over. by the time the 5th ball takes flight the batsman will have it set in his mind that its going to turn the same as those before it. when you place the ball in your hand, put the seam 90 degrees to where it would normally be, so that the seam is pointing down the wicket, instead of across it when you release it (e.g. the seam will be scrambled). bowl it exactly as you would your normal leg break. theres a very good chance it wont turn at all off the pitch, make sure you pitch it up to give the batsman less time to react, and aim it at middle and off stump. it will bounce straight through and bring bowled and LBW into play, and you dont need any kind of variation at all to bowl it, simply rotate the ball in your grip.

if you want to try and add the flipper then be mindful of the potential for damage if you practice it too much. it really does work the muscles in your forearm. i use the same muscles a lot for my work, so my forearms are fairly strong, and if i practice it between my hands for too long it sometimes starts to ache. try starting out with a tennis ball and just bowling it round arm at a wall (so you can see your hand whilst bowling it). dont worry about cricket balls across 22 yards just yet, work up to that later once youve mastered the grip and the finger click. daves videos are a good place to start for seeing how to grip the ball and impart the spin. because its such a different delivery to a leg break it can be hard to land the ball consistently on the seam, i rarely land it perfectly. if you miss the seam then it doesnt really stay low like it should. the scrambled seam leg break is a more consistent straight delivery, but it doesnt do anything special like stay low or bounce more. the backspun slider is the best straight-on delivery though IMO, the flipper gets a lot of hype but Warne looked to take a lot more wickets with the slider in his earlier days than he did with the flipper. a lot of the time the commentators called a flipper it was actually a slider or a leg break that didnt turn anyway. they just called every straight one a flipper.

I'm with you on this Jim - The Flipper isn't that special the only reason I'm hanging in there with it is that it's okay against tail enders and that last summer I was getting ridiculous swing with it that looked quite useful,

 

[scooter22]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Thanks for the tips. Now that i have some more information, i have decided to not bowl the flipper. I will instead work on bowling the delivery jim talked about, changing the grip. My legspin in coming on quite nicely, as i took a wicket in the 2nd XI team at the weekend.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Thanks for the tips. Now that i have some more information, i have decided to not bowl the flipper. I will instead work on bowling the delivery jim talked about, changing the grip. My legspin in coming on quite nicely, as i took a wicket in the 2nd XI team at the weekend.

Ian healy said that when warne first came into the national side he turned the ball so much that they had to get him to change his line to bowl outside leg stump. if this is the case for you then consider moving your line. it could also be that you're bowling far too short and seeing more turn off the pitch.

But I would have to agree with most other people on here that you can't turn it too much you just need to work out how to use that turn to your advantage.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have a leg break which a constantly work on, but which spins too much, and my smaller leg break bounces too much. my top spinner bounces too much as well. So i cannot hit the stumps (which is the most common form of dismissal at my level) or get an lbw. I have also heard it takes a long time to prefect, so i thought i would try to get a headstart to bowling a very good one.

The same thing can happen to me when I get my bowling right. I just pretty much gave up hitting the stumps as my primary method of attack; changed it to attempting to take the outside edge(of course, I do stick it outside leg-stump and attempt to hit the stumps on occasion, but it often, when I am bowling well, it has to be so far outside that any good batsmen deals with it quite easily a lot of the time).

In terms of bounce, there are a couple of factors to consider. What kind of pitch are you playing on? How much air are you giving the ball? While the first is not really worth discussing as there is nothing you can do about it, the second one very much is. If you toss the ball up high the amount of bounce will be greater, as it is hits the ground at a greater angle than a flatter delivery. Now this is not to say that one should not toss the ball up. On the contrary, it is extremely important to do so, but it can be extremely useful to have a flatter delivery, especially if it will allow you to hit the
stumps. Of course, I am merely speculating here: I don't know what aspects you have to your bowling. I am just suggesting that bowling flatter may be a possibility for reducing the amount of bounce you get.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Just had the first net session of the season and got smashed all over the park by the club Leftie - also the best batsman in the club. Right handers though had them all over the shop!
Coming away from the session my initial response was that I need to get my wrong un going well in order that I can turn the ball away from the edge of the bat, but then I realised that I wasn't that aware of the shots he was playing other than the legside shots. I think I was on auto-pilot and was pitching the ball on what normally is the off-stump which in his case is his Leg Stump and he was just hammering me away to the legside. Because I can put the ball there again and again would there be in any point in having a legside set field and bowl like that - because the balls did seem to be catching the top edge and they were all primarily balls that went up and would have been potentially caught at Deep Sq Leg, square leg or backward of sq Leg. If I set a field that had blokes out there I could then bowl the wrong un so that he then has to contend with batting against the spin as well. What would that then force him to do? Or would he still try and bat like that?

firstly I've always found nets to be an unfair reflection of a batsmans quality against spin as there is no pressure and even if you tell them the field you have set they continue to play big shots where they can.

we have two really good left handers at my club, one very technical and the other is a big hitter but a little less technically gifted. both of these players punish leg side deliveries especially if they are short, which I think should be expected. bowling leg stump to left handers is probably the best way to get some bad figures at the end of the game in my opinion.

I've always found that a ball on a good length about a foot outside off stump is the best and simplest way to force and error from a left hander. For me the best way of thinking of it is which scoring shots are you leaving them with.

if they decide to reach outside off and try and play shots into the leg side then they are taking a risk and if they play against the spin into the covers then they are taking a risk to. if you are bowling well and getting them to play forward then they will eventually have to do something risky in order to score, if you're getting them to take risks you've done your job.

play around with your position on the crease to change your angle, vary your pace and flight and if you have a variation that goes straight or the wrong'un then even better. but most of all be patient and hope the batsman isn't.

YouTube - Shane Warne 12/128 Vs South Africa 1994

some good left hander dismisals in this vid.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I'm with you on this Jim - The Flipper isn't that special the only reason I'm hanging in there with it is that it's okay against tail enders and that last summer I was getting ridiculous swing with it that looked quite useful,

I have to disagree slightly about the flipper, only from personal experience though. I've found my flipper can be a really lovely surprise delivery, not because it goes straight on but because of its acceleration and differing trajectory from the slider. It’s also really satisfying if to set the batsman up for one if it works. But I wouldn't get bogged down with it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

firstly I've always found nets to be an unfair reflection of a batsmans quality against spin as there is no pressure and even if you tell them the field you have set they continue to play big shots where they can.

we have two really good left handers at my club, one very technical and the other is a big hitter but a little less technically gifted. both of these players punish leg side deliveries especially if they are short, which I think should be expected. bowling leg stump to left handers is probably the best way to get some bad figures at the end of the game in my opinion.

I've always found that a ball on a good length about a foot outside off stump is the best and simplest way to force and error from a left hander. For me the best way of thinking of it is which scoring shots are you leaving them with.

if they decide to reach outside off and try and play shots into the leg side then they are taking a risk and if they play against the spin into the covers then they are taking a risk to. if you are bowling well and getting them to play forward then they will eventually have to do something risky in order to score, if you're getting them to take risks you've done your job.

play around with your position on the crease to change your angle, vary your pace and flight and if you have a variation that goes straight or the wrong'un then even better. but most of all be patient and hope the batsman isn't.

YouTube - Shane Warne 12/128 Vs South Africa 1994

some good left hander dismisals in this vid.

Nice one mate cheers - I've made a note of all this and I'll try it out, I've just got to get out of playing in auto-pilot mode as I did last night.

 

[scooter22]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The same thing can happen to me when I get my bowling right. I just pretty much gave up hitting the stumps as my primary method of attack; changed it to attempting to take the outside edge(of course, I do stick it outside leg-stump and attempt to hit the stumps on occasion, but it often, when I am bowling well, it has to be so far outside that any good batsmen deals with it quite easily a lot of the time).

In terms of bounce, there are a couple of factors to consider. What kind of pitch are you playing on? How much air are you giving the ball? While the first is not really worth discussing as there is nothing you can do about it, the second one very much is. If you toss the ball up high the amount of bounce will be greater, as it is hits the ground at a greater angle than a flatter delivery. Now this is not to say that one should not toss the ball up. On the contrary, it is extremely important to do so, but it can be extremely useful to have a flatter delivery, especially if it will allow you to hit the
stumps. Of course, I am merely speculating here: I don't know what aspects you have to your bowling. I am just suggesting that bowling flatter may be a possibility for reducing the amount of bounce you get.

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

Hmmm, that sounds a little strange. Normally, a flighted ball should have little trouble spinning, at least if you flatter ones are turning. Is the seam in a different position on your flighted ones? It might be failing to hit the seam and so not gripping. Is your wrist action significantly different on your flighted one? It might be that you re not getting the same revs on your flighted ones.

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

I wonder where you pitch the ball. Do you pitch it outside leg? Or do you pitch it on middle... or do you pitch it on off?

The bigger you spin it, the crazier it looks for the batsman and that can only be a good thing. How many times have we seen Shane Warne spin it from outside leg past the off stump... that stuff is stuff of legends and crying batsman... that is if they realise what happened.

So... you spin it too much you think? Pitch it further and further outside leg stump until it goes past the right handed batsman on a difficult line. It's tough to do, but it really payed off for Macgill against England in that SCG test.

YouTube - Stuart MacGill 12/107 Vs England

And definitely learn to get that leg break flighting.

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I just read the last part of the quote I took. I read this after I submitted my last reply. How absent-minded of me...

Flight with turn. Most spinners generally find it easier to turn it when you flight it. So I think your inability to turn it when you flight it is probably related to something of your mechanics.


So how do you flight it? Shane Warne says bowl with a higher arm to get more flight. He also says lengthen the distance the bowling arm has to travel. Before I heard him say these things, I just bent my back leg and pushed up to get more flight. Seems simpler to me.. and probably does the same things. Do whatever makes sense to you.

The thing with flighting the ball is that you need to spin the ball hard, perhaps harder than when it's flat. This is because you have to dip the ball which without spin would end up being a full toss. Hence most bowlers spin it more when they flight it... it's like an imperative to spin more when you flight.. because if you don't you get punished...

Of course, as previously stated you need drop to flight the ball while still have it land on the pitch. This requires more over-spin on the bowler's part. Now if you have tried bowling a topspinner, alongside the sidespinner, then one would assume you have also tried the one in between... the overspinner. So asking you to try that is probably redundant -- you should already know it. Instead then, think of your thumb position. Be acutely aware of where your thumb is when you bowl it. is it at 6 o'clock like Shane Warne's is?

Check-out 1:43-1:47
YouTube - Cloverdale Cricket Masterclass Spin Bowling tips 1

If you don't put your thumb in this position then try it with the side spinner, the top spinner, and the overspinner. Then slowly experiment with the thumb moving clockwise toward 9 o'clock and notice the difference. Pick and choose the variations you think will be handy in taking wickets.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

I agree with Edge Of Willow about not being hung up on hitting the stumps as an aim for your stock ball. That can lead to disaster.

You have to be thinking of where it lands on the pitch and not so much where it passes the stumps. Mostly your are spinning it up fairly full trying to invite the drive. You are going to get more catches and stumpings with your legbreaks than clean bowled.

You sound like you might be a bit too flat and maybe a fraction short at the moment ? You might have to spin up a bit more , but not too much.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

I think there is a lot of confusion regarding flight. Lots of the enthusiastic amateurs like me that I've seen give the ball way to much air and end up taking pace off the ball and produce no real revs.

I think that anything that goes just over that batsman’s eye line can be considered a flighted delivery which when you think about it isn't that much.

one problem is that lobbing up the ball like this can be quite successful at club level but my experience has shown me that good club level batsmen will punish this type of delivery.

one other problem is that if you're teaching yourself leg spin by studying the quality leg spinners on television then if can be quite difficult to judge the amount of flight they give the ball leaving you with very little clue.

here is a good article I saw on pitch vision

Spin bowling tips: Flight | Cricket coaching, fitness and tips

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Nice one mate cheers - I've made a note of all this and I'll try it out, I've just got to get out of playing in auto-pilot mode as I did last night.

small section on bowling to left handers in this article

Classic bowling dismissals: Leg spin | Cricket coaching, fitness and tips

 

[big spin]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I dont give my big leg-break much flight, as i just rip it. The problem is that the big leg break turns right past off stump, on a good length. When i bowl the top spinner, i get too much bounce and i dont have a reliable small leg-break at them moment. So i cannot hit the stump unless i bowl half volleys outside leg stump. i have trouble with the flight as well. How can you still get spin while flighting the ball up? this is something i regularly have trouble with.

For me it's just practice, to bowl the ball slower but still to give it a real rip is tricky, because its so easy to drag it down or bowl a full toss. It's well worth the bothering with though, because they're difficult to play as they just drop shorter than you think, and they are likely to drift further as they're in the air longer.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

small section on bowling to left handers in this article

Classic bowling dismissals: Leg spin | Cricket coaching, fitness and tips

not sure id agree at all with bowling mostly googlies and top spinners to a leftie though. its a very negative solution, basically the same as saying bowl straight. it might restrict runs but its unlikely to get a wicket. i think variation is required against a good left handed batsman if they start to get on top of your leg breaks, just to keep them guessing and discourage them from going after you. but the leg break is still the best ball in the armoury. off spinners dont have problems getting right handers out, so why should it be any different?

i bowled a spell of excellent deliveries to a sri lankan left hander last season. when he rotated the strike and i got to bowl at the righty i had him in all sorts of trouble. but this left handed just had the measure of me, and was slapping me for 4's and 6's at will. i honestly dont know what i could have done differently to stop it, i was getting 2-3 feet of turn at times on a good length. i mixed up the length a bit with the same result each time. i tried bowling from everywhere on the crease. i think the only thing i could have changed was less flight and more pace on the ball, as i was still bowling quite slowly at this stage of my development and maybe he just had enough time to read the ball onto the bat. he was playing mostly off the back foot, but i wasnt dropping anything short.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

not sure id agree at all with bowling mostly googlies and top spinners to a leftie though. its a very negative solution, basically the same as saying bowl straight. it might restrict runs but its unlikely to get a wicket. i think variation is required against a good left handed batsman if they start to get on top of your leg breaks, just to keep them guessing and discourage them from going after you. but the leg break is still the best ball in the armoury. off spinners dont have problems getting right handers out, so why should it be any different?

i bowled a spell of excellent deliveries to a sri lankan left hander last season. when he rotated the strike and i got to bowl at the righty i had him in all sorts of trouble. but this left handed just had the measure of me, and was slapping me for 4's and 6's at will. i honestly dont know what i could have done differently to stop it, i was getting 2-3 feet of turn at times on a good length. i mixed up the length a bit with the same result each time. i tried bowling from everywhere on the crease. i think the only thing i could have changed was less flight and more pace on the ball, as i was still bowling quite slowly at this stage of my development and maybe he just had enough time to read the ball onto the bat. he was playing mostly off the back foot, but i wasnt dropping anything short.

I know what you mean but I don't think bowling negatively should be seen as a bad thing or as giving in to the batsman.

You can still set positive fields for negative bowling and vise versa, if a good batsmen like the one you mentioned isn't scoring eventually he will snap and do something silly.

A flipper or any type of quicker flatter ball is always handy against someone playing you on the back foot.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I'll just see how I get on with bowling outside of off-stump turning it into him with the leg breaks as Jim pointed out it's like an Off-spinner bowling at a right - hander which is a very obvious and good point. So I'll try and find some footage of Swann or Panesar bowling and see what it is they do? I'll just vary the flight, speed, and position on the crease I bowl from and just see what happens.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I know what you mean but I don't think bowling negatively should be seen as a bad thing or as giving in to the batsman.

You can still set positive fields for negative bowling and vise versa, if a good batsmen like the one you mentioned isn't scoring eventually he will snap and do something silly.

A flipper or any type of quicker flatter ball is always handy against someone playing you on the back foot.

limiting runs depends on the format of the game to some extent i think. 40 over club cricket is generally fairly fast paced, but not so fast paced that batsmen feel the need to lash out at everything. depending on the mindset of the batsman of course, as some are just overly aggressive. but when youre only bowling in 3-6 over spells (a specified maximum of 8 overs per bowler) its hard to build pressure by restricting scoring, its not like a test match. most sensible batsmen would just look to survive or try and grab singles or capitalise on anything loose (this is quite important - if youre not ultra consistent and you gift runs every over then its impossible to be defensive anyway!). so negativity wont necessarily be rewarded. id generally rather try my luck bowling aggressively and risking some runs looking for a quick wicket than play a patient defensive game and hope for a mistake. if i had more overs then its easier to formulate a long term bowling plan. but il generally get 3-6, usually 4, and the only way i can buy more from the captain is with wickets!!

if you bowl outside off stump then that is an aggressive delivery. inline and around off stump is probably a standard line depending on how much you turn it, if you turn it big then move the line outside. bowling at the pads with a loaded on-side field is a negative and defensive ploy with no intention other than to restrict scoring. any shot played there is fairly safe because LBW is very hard to get (near on impossible at club level when rival batsmen are the umpires!!!), the ball has almost no chance of hitting the wicket, and unless the batsman really messes it up its hard for him to get caught anywhere playing a sensible shot.

if you bowl outside off stump then the batsman has no choice but to take a risk. if he tries to hit you hard then its a huge risk because he has to play against the turn, if he tries to play a sensible shot then its still a risk. if he defends then hes still at risk of finding an edge or getting bowled through the gate. the safest shot is to try and help the ball onto the on-side, playing with the spin, but those are technically difficult shots and need good footwork, footwork also brings stumpings into play if youre getting to the pitch of the ball. its also easy to get caught at any number of positions, both playing shots and trying not to play shots (e.g. edges).

there are situations for both aggressive and defensive. but i dont think the standard line to a lefty should be a defensive one. i think you need to be positive and attack them with your bowling from the word go. but ultimately you cant do any damage unless youve got the ball in your hand, so if a lefty is taking you to the cleaners and you cant solve it quickly then go defensive against him just so that the captain doesnt remove you from the attack. and then focus on getting the righty at the other end on strike lol. the same applies to good right handed bats though, if the batsman has the upper hand and you cant regain control then just look to get the other batsman on strike. i also dont think the general bowling mindset should differ between righties and lefties. just the line that you bowl given the differing direction of turn and the variations you play with. i definitely dont think that the googly should be used more though, unless youve got one that turns as big as your leg breaks!