Wrist Spin Bowling

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho, sounds like you have a bloody good teacher at school teaching you cricket!

He was great (sadly no longer with us) and a leg spinner so was chuffed that someone wanted to do it when everyone else wanted to be a seamer. Shame I left a 15 year gap between what he showed me and taking it up again.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I did not find get a chance to bowl this week. I have a net session coming week and would try your advice of holding the ball loose. I do not think I was holding the ball tight in the first place.

I guess you missed my third question, which was about the slider..... Can you shed more light on it. I have read,heard many versions of it. What do you think is the genuine version or the standard version of it?

I have two sliders that I bowl; these are the same that Shane Warne mentioned on his master class at the oval.

The first which I suppose you could label the genuine one is a sort of leg break but one were the wrist has come so far around that you are flicking the ball back at your own face with your hand coming down in a karate chop in the follow through. I have found that this delivery requires a supple wrist and elbow. Also I've never seen it from the batsman’s point of view so have no idea how obvious a variation this is. It feels very much (to me anyway) like a big leg break that has gone really wrong. One benefit of this delivery is that if you do mess it up (as I have on many occasions) it can turn into a massive leg break.

The second I can best describe as a seamers delivery but with the 3rd and little finger being used instead of the first and second like a seamer would. It is far easier for me to bowl and I have seen footage of me bowling it from the batsman’s end and it looks very much like a leg break delivery.

Both of them require patients and practice but can be very handy deliveries to have. Try and bowl with your normal arm speed to maintain the deception that you’re bowling a normal leg break.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i had a semi productive practice today. im working with the run up again, and things have improved a great deal.

ive discovered the root cause of all of my issues today, which has to be a big positive, i havent 100% corrected things though.

issue 1 was my line, it kept going leg side and was impossible to correct. this was primarily off of a standing delivery, e.g. no run up, just a step onto my front foot and bowl. i couldnt work out why, and nothing i tried corrected it.

however bowling with a run up seemed more consistent in line. so i compared the 2 methods and ive discovered that running up gets me more side on at the point of delivery. i dont rotate any more than i do from a standing delivery, and thus bizarrely i am actually facing more towards the leg side, but somehow the momentum delivers the ball inline with the stumps on a FAR more consistent basis. i tried bowling off a standing delivery with the first step being taken from about 45 degrees to the side, and this worked better than it had before. but the future of my action has to be with a run up, so ive decided to just stick at that.

id say about 45% of the balls now pitch inline with the stumps, with 15% outside off stump by a sensible margin (a few inches), 5% outside off stump by a stupid amount, 30% outside leg stump by a sensible margin (again, a few inches), and 5% go miles down the leg side. this is a massive improvement. before id say that only 20% went inline with the stumps, 5% outside off, and the other 75% outside leg stump by varying amounts!!

off of the run up im less consistent in turning the ball (not helped by my fingers feeling very "sluggish" and stiff today, not sure why, but i just didnt have complete control of them like i normally do. so lots of balls were getting stuck or coming out badly), sometimes it turns big, sometimes it skids through, most of the time it will turn to some extent. this is exaggerated by inconsistencies in flighting the ball, i find this much harder to do at higher speeds, when i get the ball well flighted it drifts, dips, bounces, turns, the full package. at least now if i bowl a ball that gets dragged down and doesnt turn though it is still inline with the stumps!! my length has suffered a great deal as a result of my change in action, but im sure this can be resolved with some more practice. i know the issues causing my inconsistencies in length so i can work on those next.

ive completely lost all of my variations off of a run up, all i can bowl is small to medium leg breaks and top spinners. everything else flies up in the air! il just have to work back upto them slowly from without a run up, and then gradually increase the speeds.

something ive noticed about my action is that "exploding at the crease" is a hugely disturbing aspect to an action. exploding in my eyes means to approach at less than 100% effort, then suddenly increase your efforts to 100% at the point of delivery. youre basically accelerating into the delivery, and this is another cause of many of my issues. i found that by approaching at 70%, and then delivering at 70% everything clicked into place. trying to exert massive amounts of effort in the final stage of the delivery is in my opinion detrimental, you need to already be close to maximum effort before you take your delivery stride. i can now gradually increase the effort to 100% at all times, but trying to put all of the energy in at the last second just causes timing issues, or at least i found.

the final aspects of my action that i considered were my front foot position and my front arm position. the front foot doesnt point down the wicket, i found that just didnt help, its more comfortable pointing at about 30 degrees down the leg side and that helps me to rotate. i think the foot pointing down the wicket is more a trait of a seam bowler, im not sure it holds any relevance to a leg spinner, but everyone has to go with whatever works for them. with regards my arm, im getting it straighter and higher, and thats helping to get my weight backwards before the delivery and then transfer it forwards during the delivery and increase the energy transfer and rotation.

i laid down some large wooden blocks for target practice today as well. they were extremely helpful! theres a big pile of these huge wooden blocks sat by the pavillion for some reason, about 30" long, by 12" wide and 6" tall. i had one in front of the stumps on its side (so it was long and tall) at a position that was too full across the stumps, and would result in a full toss delivery. i then had 2 of them the same facing down the wicket inline with leg stump (making an L shape with the long part of the L inline with leg stump and the short part closest to the stumps). basically the aim was to land the ball alongside the blocks on the offside, and to not hit the one blocking the stumps. this proved very succesful, on occasion id still pitch leg side, but when i did i seemed to find a lot more turn to compensate, and most deliveries were coming back in at the stumps.

all in all a good session, but as always, theres a ton of new issues to resolve next time. it feels like watching an episode of Lost - you get to the end of an new episode with a few answers to questions from episodes before, but youve found twice as many new questions in the new episode!! it doesnt feel like its going anywhere, but ultimately it is.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i bowl mine with the "karate chop" style that Paulinho describes. its basically a "round the loop" variation (referring the Peter Philpotts way of explaining things) that spins back towards my face.

as Paulinho has said, if you get it right its a back spinner, but if its ever so slightly off of straight it ends up as a massive leg break that stays low! which i think its quite useful, as even if the batsman reads it, it can still do the complete opposite of what hes expecting. when it comes out right it has massive amounts of spin on it because of the nature of the action and i actually find it grips the surface so well that it almost stops dead, giving it more bounce that you might expect it to (it doesnt skid on like a flipper) and then a very sharp drop back down. if i could bowl it on the right length it would literally land 2 feet in front of the stumps, bounce clean over the stumps, and land again a foot behind them!

if its delivered slightly angled then it does a similar thing, but turns to the leg side in a major way. its a really tough delivery to bowl though, i had it going well but ive lost it a bit now. i can only bowl it without a run up, and even then its not great. ive changed my action quite a lot so im trying to find it again.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim I'd nomimate your 70% effort through the crease as your optimum 100%. The secret is to get a nice smooth action that builds and explodes through the crease at what feels like a nice controlled climax to the build up.

It's good to see that you're working through all your issues and it was good to hear Warne describing in general terms how much practice he did and he does say towards the end that "It takes years and years and years" and he also advocates a Peter Philpott approach in that every moment that you've got spare, you pick up a ball and you go and bowl it giving it a big flick and when you can't do that you just flick the ball anyway when you're just hanging around. Warne needs to make these comments more formally, he should make a video or write a book.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I have two sliders that I bowl; these are the same that Shane Warne mentioned on his master class at the oval.

The first which I suppose you could label the genuine one is a sort of leg break but one were the wrist has come so far around that you are flicking the ball back at your own face with your hand coming down in a karate chop in the follow through. I have found that this delivery requires a supple wrist and elbow. Also I've never seen it from the batsman’s point of view so have no idea how obvious a variation this is. It feels very much (to me anyway) like a big leg break that has gone really wrong. One benefit of this delivery is that if you do mess it up (as I have on many occasions) it can turn into a massive leg break.

The second I can best describe as a seamers delivery but with the 3rd and little finger being used instead of the first and second like a seamer would. It is far easier for me to bowl and I have seen footage of me bowling it from the batsman’s end and it looks very much like a leg break delivery.

Both of them require patients and practice but can be very handy deliveries to have. Try and bowl with your normal arm speed to maintain the deception that you’re bowling a normal leg break.

That's how my attempts at the Biggun end up a lot of the time, so I've got a variation as well then!

Adil Rashid played today at Stormont with England 4-0-16-1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared...et/scorecards/2009/8/15834/html/scorecard.stm I was hoping that channel 5 might have covered it, but they haven't. Fingers crossed Rashid will be included in the tour of South Africa soon and we'll get to see him bowl.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim I'd nomimate your 70% effort through the crease as your optimum 100%. The secret is to get a nice smooth action that builds and explodes through the crease at what feels like a nice controlled climax to the build up.

It's good to see that you're working through all your issues and it was good to hear Warne describing in general terms how much practice he did and he does say towards the end that "It takes years and years and years" and he also advocates a Peter Philpott approach in that every moment that you've got spare, you pick up a ball and you go and bowl it giving it a big flick and when you can't do that you just flick the ball anyway when you're just hanging around. Warne needs to make these comments more formally, he should make a video or write a book.

Warne used to practise and demonstrate spin on a pool table much like Bosquanet and Grimmett

The Philpott "backspinning topspinner" ( Doug Ring slider) is another delivery that can be worked on against a wall. You should work towards a straight seam and a straight bounce off the wall. The wall never lies.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim, how's your bowling going, I've been thinking about your fizzing ball and the fact that surely that puts you in an amazing position potentially to become an exceptionally good bowler? Do you play for a team and what are your bowling figures like?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There was a young bowler from Adelaide who made the news a couple of years ago. His trick was he was ambidextrous and would come in and bowl left handed and right handed off spin in the same over. the batsmen soon started to complain but he must have been within the laws because he was allowed to bowl this way. I have not heard how has been going lately.

I suppoose if batsmen can change their stance and grip and alter their status from left handed to righthanded as the bowler bowls , bowlers can do the same thing.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim, how's your bowling going, I've been thinking about your fizzing ball and the fact that surely that puts you in an amazing position potentially to become an exceptionally good bowler? Do you play for a team and what are your bowling figures like?

funny you should ask, because i was just about to post (its going to be a long one though!). i went to the clubs net training tonight, there was nobody else there again, its got to be the end of season drop off i think. that doesnt bother me though because i dont mind bowling by myself, its more useful than having a batsman play ridiculous shots all over the park that he would never even contemplate in a match situation lol.

it was an absolutely magical session, easily the most significant improvement ive made to date, as well as being the most consistent and good!! im absolutely chuffed with the progress ive made in the last week.

i started out where i left off on monday or tuesday (cant remember when i practiced last). the best thing is that i started out EXACTLY where i left off. often il make progress, then have to re-find it again the next time, not today. so thats good, things are finally clicking together. there was a young kid there who wandered over to have a look, i let him have a bowl as well. he was mightily impressed with the amount of turn. for some strange reason when youve got a kid going "wow" at every delivery its inspring to make you bowl even better lol. at least i seem to find it that way.

so then he left and i got down to business. i instantly identified a major problem in my action that ive known about for a while, but underestimated. i bend my front leg when i bowl, i dont brace it or lock it out, i let it flex slightly. i figured this out by bowling some deliveries off of no run up, and i keep my leg straighter then, and so i got to thinking that maybe i should try and keep it braced. so i tried to bowl with a dead straight leg off my now fluid run up (ive got a rhythm, including a few weird little "trigger movements" (a batting term, but im sure it can be applied to bowling as well) that i guess help me keep the rhythm), and this one simple change has transformed my action! firstly, the braced leg transfers weight more effectively, and it transfers weight faster. not only that, but it also FORCES me to rotate around it (knees dont bend backwards), and the rotation has magically fixed my leg-side tendancies!! i have to lift my trailing leg up (as if im stepping over the stumps) which i never did before with any great pronunciation. i now end my delivery action with my right foot forward, almost in line with my left foot, so im turning through the full 180 degs (or a little less). before i would barely turn past 90, id end my action face on, not side on.

the end result was a smile on my face for an hour of awesome bowling last practice i said id got my accuracy to around 45% of deliveries inline with the stumps. today that was more like 70%, 10% down the off side, 15% down the leg side by a foot or less, and 5% well wide.

for the first time EVER i managed to bowl an entire over of very good deliveries, 7 in a row in fact. and most of the bad ones were just short on length, still on a sensible line. im bowling primarily 45 deg overspun leg breaks, which typically pitch inline with middle and turn to anything from 6" outside off stump to sometimes 2-3 feet. i bowled a couple of awesome deliveries that pitched a foot outside leg and hit the stumps. my new action also means i can bowl 90 deg leg breaks with the same consistency as overspun ones (which hasnt been the case until now), and i can bowl slightly backspun "big" leg breaks with the same consistency. the top spinner works just as well as it did before, the flipper now works off a run up, my slider is still hit and miss.

the other thing ive acquired, which ive always had on occasion but with varying degrees of success, is consistent drift!! id imagine there is dip as well, but i cant see that so easily. the drift today was awesome though. there was one delivery that i really managed to rip, that drifted literally 8-12" in the air from inline with middle to outside leg, and turned back with extra bounce over off stump. its probably the best delivery ive ever bowled. literally every good ball i bowled was drifting, this hasnt happened before. i also noticed a weird "reverse drift" phenomenon on some heavily overspun leg breaks. is it possible im getting the ball to swing?!? it may be, as its a lot faster in the air now that ive got the run up working. there were definitely some deliveries that i thought "oh no, thats going leg side" as soon as it left my hand, only for it to shape back in and pitch inline with middle!! it definitely had me puzzled a few times.

a couple of guys showed up as it was getting dark with bats and cricket balls, but no pads lol, they wanted a go in the nets. only the one i was using had stumps so i said they were welcome to have a go in those ones, i just wanted to bowl at a batsman because my confidence was sky high. it was really getting dark, so i couldnt see that well where i was bowling, and i think this and the distraction of a batsman led to me going down the leg side a little, i was trying too hard. but i got probably 1 in 3 to do what i wanted. i bowled a couple of absolute rippers that beat him all ends up. and i threw in a flipper that had him absolutely bamboozled lol. i dont think these guys play for a team at present, but one of them is ex-first team at the club i now play for, i wouldnt be surprised if both of them were. one of them made a nice comment of "so do you play for the first team?" after about 5 mins of bowling. im hoping he genuinely wondered that because of what he had seen of my bowling. without blowing my own trumpet, id imagine at club level my action probably does look pretty awesome. its not that consistent, but i really do shape myself by the textbook. lots of club level spinners seem to have a very hand grenady action at times, or a weird unorthodox action. all of the videos ive seen guys on here make though have been very similar to mine, they look similar to those of the pros.

to top it all off, at the start of my session before id done anything good i got asked by one of the club players who was in the bar and wandered over if i was up for a game on sunday because theyve got the 2 sunday teams playing a friendly against each other and one of them is short a player. theyve seen me practicing up there for hours every thursday and knew i hadnt played properly yet. so that should be a good chance to put my bowling to the test in a proper match situation. i got a wicket in my first game (that i wasnt even supposed to be playing in lol) after id only been playing for 2-3 weeks. so lets see what happens now

as for my figures, at present (after a single T20 game, that i bowled right at the end of when they were chasing the total with 9 wickets in hand!!) are 2-0-14-1, so my bowling average is 14.00 and my strike rate is 12.00. if i can maintain those averages il be very happy lol my target for the weekend is to try and bowl 5 or 6 overs if i get the chance, and aim to take some wickets, but most importantly find some rhythm and get people "ooing" and "ahhing" at every stroke of the bat. im playing for the 2nd team, so in theory i should be up against some higher quality batsman in the 1st team. hopefully theyll be super confident and looking to embarass a rookie leg spinner that would make my day.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

More interesting stuff from Warne here - Sky Sports | Clips & Catch-up | Latest Videos | Ashes 09 don't know if you can all see this as it may be restricted to UK viewing or something. But here he talks about Panesar and the fact that Panesar hasn't gone forward with his bowling and has stagnated and he also mentions coaches in the context of Panesar implying that Panesar may be listening to too many people and getting himself all confused. If that's the case I'd say that English spin bowling is in a sorry state.

Apparently following up on the point I made about the ECB missing out by signing up to SKY exclusivity, a commentator on a sport radio show here made exactly the same point saying that in 2005 he couldn't take his dog for a walk for fear of small boys shouting the name of Flintoff and balls wizzing around his ears, whereas this year in the same town he hasn't seen a single kid playing cricket or talk about any cricket. His final conclusion was that SKY and the ECB had disenfranchised possibly 10's of thousands of small boys from the chance of becoming cricketers and that may affect the chances of us winning the Ashes in the future.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah that'd be good if you could get the better of them. I hope it goes well and look forward to the result. Let's hope you get a Fivefor! I reckon that if you keep at this for a few years it sounds as though you've got real potential, just the fact that you're spinning the ball so ridiculously hard puts you in a really good position to go forward.

I've just been on facebook talking to a girl who used a high speed camera at work last year and she was saying the camera is hireable, so I'm going to look into trying to get hold of that to film what happens with hand in the delivery, it's high end spec camera used for things like car crash analysis and medical stuff. I'm not that hopeful, but I'll fish around and see what I come up with.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There was a young bowler from Adelaide who made the news a couple of years ago. His trick was he was ambidextrous and would come in and bowl left handed and right handed off spin in the same over. the batsmen soon started to complain but he must have been within the laws because he was allowed to bowl this way. I have not heard how has been going lately.

I suppoose if batsmen can change their stance and grip and alter their status from left handed to righthanded as the bowler bowls , bowlers can do the same thing.

Yeah he must be able to as long as he tells the umpire?

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

so then he left and i got down to business. i instantly identified a major problem in my action that ive known about for a while, but underestimated. i bend my front leg when i bowl, i dont brace it or lock it out, i let it flex slightly. i figured this out by bowling some deliveries off of no run up, and i keep my leg straighter then, and so i got to thinking that maybe i should try and keep it braced. so i tried to bowl with a dead straight leg off my now fluid run up (ive got a rhythm, including a few weird little "trigger movements" (a batting term, but im sure it can be applied to bowling as well) that i guess help me keep the rhythm), and this one simple change has transformed my action! firstly, the braced leg transfers weight more effectively, and it transfers weight faster. not only that, but it also FORCES me to rotate around it (knees dont bend backwards), and the rotation has magically fixed my leg-side tendancies!! i have to lift my trailing leg up (as if im stepping over the stumps) which i never did before with any great pronunciation. i now end my delivery action with my right foot forward, almost in line with my left foot, so im turning through the full 180 degs (or a little less). before i would barely turn past 90, id end my action face on, not side on.

I mentioned in an earlier post that the bent front leg was basically the cause of all my problems. I never spotted it myself but someone mentioned it to me.

Philpott doesn't really seem to put a massive amount of emphasis on it which surprised me as it was such a massive problem for me.

once I had corrected it everything seemed to come together really quickly, greater control, more turn, much better pivot, just a better action all around to be honest.

hope you continue with your good form.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is good as well - the points that Beefy makes about cricket balls and the fact that the whole set up these days is in favour of the batsman. Sky Sports | Clips & Catch-up | Latest Videos | Ashes 09

Scroll back till you reach the one titled 'Cricket balls'.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I did not find get a chance to bowl this week. I have a net session coming week and would try your advice of holding the ball loose. I do not think I was holding the ball tight in the first place.

I guess you missed my third question, which was about the slider..... Can you shed more light on it. I have read,heard many versions of it. What do you think is the genuine version or the standard version of it?

If you are not holding it too tight but still get blisters early on, that is probably a sign of dedicated practise. You will hopefully develop a callous. It is only a problem if you keep getting them all through a career. Benaud had a major problem with blisters and Colin Mc Cool's test career was ruined by his inability to stop his spinning finger from blistering.

It is probably better to think of "a" slider rather than "the" slider these days. The term was borrowed from baseball. There are lots of descriptions of various sliders on this thread. In itself it is not a dangerous cut through delivery but mixed in amongst topspinning legbreaks it makes for a sometimes deadly variation.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

More interesting stuff from Warne here - Sky Sports | Clips & Catch-up | Latest Videos | Ashes 09 don't know if you can all see this as it may be restricted to UK viewing or something. But here he talks about Panesar and the fact that Panesar hasn't gone forward with his bowling and has stagnated and he also mentions coaches in the context of Panesar implying that Panesar may be listening to too many people and getting himself all confused. If that's the case I'd say that English spin bowling is in a sorry state.

Apparently following up on the point I made about the ECB missing out by signing up to SKY exclusivity, a commentator on a sport radio show here made exactly the same point saying that in 2005 he couldn't take his dog for a walk for fear of small boys shouting the name of Flintoff and balls wizzing around his ears, whereas this year in the same town he hasn't seen a single kid playing cricket or talk about any cricket. His final conclusion was that SKY and the ECB had disenfranchised possibly 10's of thousands of small boys from the chance of becoming cricketers and that may affect the chances of us winning the Ashes in the future.

The ecb have taken short term profit over the long term interest of the game. Despite winning the ashes England still must have a problem as its best three batsmen are south africans not yorkshiremen.

Murdoch has dudded several sports this way. The ashes coverage will remain free in australia due to parliament but other cricket coverage can go to pay tv.

Hopefully the cricket got through to enough kids and parents to at least get them interested.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I mentioned in an earlier post that the bent front leg was basically the cause of all my problems. I never spotted it myself but someone mentioned it to me.

Philpott doesn't really seem to put a massive amount of emphasis on it which surprised me as it was such a massive problem for me.

Philpott says on pge 47 of "Cricket Fundamentals" to "brace the front leg at delivery to give you something to bowl against."

Grimmett and O Reilly both collapsed their front leg at delivery. But most legspinners should not follow their example unless it works for them as well.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The ecb have taken short term profit over the long term interest of the game. Despite winning the ashes England still must have a problem as its best three batsmen are south africans not yorkshiremen.

Murdoch has dudded several sports this way. The ashes coverage will remain free in australia due to parliament but other cricket coverage can go to pay tv.

Hopefully the cricket got through to enough kids and parents to at least get them interested.

You'd hope so, I know that when my lads joined their club last year at the end of the season they did so with about 10 others. You'd imagine that given we've just won the Ashes the number of new kids should increase this year, I'll watch out for it at my own club as well. Trouble is crickets very much neglected here in the UK, it's generally not played in primary schools at all these days firstly because all the teachers are women and then there's a whole bunch of H&S laws that make it impossible. As for secondary schools (11-16) I think that the female teacher thing plays a big role still and it's just so rare these days that you'd get a sports teacher that was genuinely interested in cricket let alone wrist spinning like Jim had when he was a kid.

On a more positive note my Father in law is a caretaker at a primary school where there is a bloke teacher who loves his cricket and between them they're having their school field re-grassed and my F-in law is going to make sure that when they roll the field that they play special attention to the wicket area.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Philpott says on pge 47 of "Cricket Fundamentals" to "brace the front leg at delivery to give you something to bowl against."

Grimmett and O Reilly both collapsed their front leg at delivery. But most legspinners should not follow their example unless it works for them as well.

Yeah I'm sure he does use the term braced front leg in "the art of wrist spin bowling" i guess I just didn't realise it could cause me so many problems and frustration or more to the point that I didn't have one.

I don't remember it being mentioned in the "some bowling problems" section in this book but it could be that it's such a fundamental part of the action that anyone not doing it should know better...

I would say that the more orthodox I'm getting the better I'm getting but like you say orthodoxy isn't for everyone.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It must have something to do with the tv coverage because even from here I can remember the bandwagon effect in 1981 and 2007 after England won the ashes at home. There were reports of big spikes in bat sales and kids joining clubs.

The only bad thing about England winning is it will be hard to get tickets to the Sydney test in 2011. I try to go every year but those tickets will go in hours and i hate sell-outs.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Durham played Sussex in the Natwest Pro 40 this evening on Sky Sports, so i thought id give it a watch and have a look at Will Beer, the 20 year old Sussex leg spinner (who was on the Shane Warne masterclass earlier in the week during the test match coverage).

i stopped watching whilst i was eating dinner, which was toward the end of the Sussex innings, little did i know that Scott Borthwick was playing, who is a 19 year old leg spinner for Durham!! so i managed to miss all of his overs, he bowled 8-0-56-0 but Sussex scored 277-6 off of 40 overs. so his figures probably arent as bad as they look.

i did manage to see Will Beer bowling though. Durham got skittled early on by Kirtley and when Beer came on to bowl it was towards the end of their innings and they were already 7 wickets down iirc with about 70 runs on the board lol. but that meant no pressure at all for the bowler, and what i saw was far from impressive. his first over started with a couple of wides down the leg side. the rest of the over was very inconsistent and inaccurate. amazingly he took a wicket. he bowled a really poor ball that dropped short without any flight, the "batsman" (actually a bowler in Liam Plunkett) smashed it into the leg side going for a 6, and got caught on the boundary rope lol.

in total Beer bowled 5 overs, his figures were 5-0-17-2 but they are flattering for what was some incredibly average bowling at best. in 5 overs i saw him bowl 2 good balls. one of them just had the tail end batsman confused and he only just managed to get some bat on it. the other was a peach to a left hander, it turned back in about 12" from outside leg stump and he played it onto the stumps. most of them were either flung up full toss or dropped short, or were miles off line. in his first couple of overs several would-be-wides got hit on the leg side saving the extras.

hes got a fairly unorthodox action, he kind of sticks his arse out and squats a little, as his arm comes over it is completely bent, and it never fully straightens. and he has a really odd wrist angle. he imparts a small amount of spin, but on the slow motion replays (which they did on almost every ball!! the commentators were fascinated by leg spin, as if theyd never seen it before) the seam position was awful. scrambled all over the place, its a wonder the ball turns. the wicket was incredibly dry and crumbling, so it suited spin perfectly. the most i saw him turn it was about a foot, in pretty much perfect conditions.

the commentators were full of praise most of the time, and as said, seemed fascinated by it. i guess that underlines the lack of understanding of leg spin bowling in this country. they did a side by side slow motion comparison of Beer and Borthwicks actions (from front on, you didnt get to see the ball in flight or off the pitch unfortunately) and Borthwick looks a lot better. much more conventional, the ball was turning more out of his hand, and with better seam discipline.

i was hugely unimpressed by Beer. i cant believe hes playing at county level really, its great that counties are giving young guys a chance, but i was bowling better, AND more consistently in the nets yesterday than Beer managed in his match tonight, and im a long, long way down the ability ladder compared to a county cricketer. or at least i should hope so!. hes only young, so theres plenty of time for him to develop, for all i know he might be an England star in 10 years and il look very silly for my criticism. but its either worrying that players can get to county level purely on the hype about the fact they are a leg spinner regardless of their outright talent, or its a great thing and means there might be hope for me yet if i keep practicing hard and making improvements lol.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

you couldn't get tickets here at all, they were bought within hours of them going on sale and I seem to remember in 2005 they had a couple of days when the matches went to the 5th day and on the tele they were saying 'If you're not doing anything tomorrow bring the kids down to Lords/oval and you can get in for a tenner' and I remember thinking yeah that's a good idea, I'd love to see Warne bowling but then never went cos my kids were so young and I thought it could be a long day and they'd get bored. I think the tickets for the potential 5th days were all bought up front as well!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saw Beer as well. I think he was reasonable. Unfortunately we are spoilt and expect all leggies to be as good as warne or Kumble. He is still young and at least is being given the chance to learn. With warne he was quite accurate and his googly much better than warne's. It is a good sign if he does not bowl well and yet get wickets.

More impressive was Kaneria, who got 8 for about 114 in one innings. If I were you dave I would go down to the essex ground and see him practice. He has the best figures of the legspinners in county championship.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The ecb have taken short term profit over the long term interest of the game. Despite winning the ashes England still must have a problem as its best three batsmen are south africans not yorkshiremen.

Murdoch has dudded several sports this way. The ashes coverage will remain free in australia due to parliament but other cricket coverage can go to pay tv.

Hopefully the cricket got through to enough kids and parents to at least get them interested.

cricket will never be the number 1 sport in England. Football has a stronghold on that and it will never end. i dont know that it necessarily should though, it has as much of a heritage as cricket does. Football is the sport of the working classes, cricket is very much viewed as the sport of the middle classes. always has been and probably always will be, working class heroes like Andrew Flintoff however help people to relate to it, but at what expense? hes worshipped more for his drinking and shenanigans by typical football fans than his cricket skills lol. ive long thought that countries like Australia and South Africa have a huge advantage over us when it comes to sports like cricket and rugby simply because soccer isnt the dominant sport. over here 99% of kids will play football as their first choice sport, thats just the way it is. its never really hurt cricket in the recent past in terms of participation (all of the schools in my area had a team, most of them had at least one county standard player. we had exactly 11 players for our school team in my yeargroup, and out of 11 players 2 played for the county at youth level), id say the standard of coaching probably has more to blame than public awareness and exposure.

there has been some criticism on this thread of Sky Sports showing the Ashes coverage. on the other hand, as a subscriber to Sky, i wouldnt have wanted it any other way. BBC arent bad for their camera work, in fact they are up there with the best in the world. but ITV, C4 and C5 are cheap, i watch football matches on ITV and the picture quality is awful, the commentary is awful, the overall coverage is just of a poor standard. watch it on Sky and its in High Definition, money is no object when it comes to getting the best commentators and pundits possible, the analysis, replays, insight, even down to the lunch time articles are absolutely spot on. its a pleasure to watch, i can sit there all day listening. if it was on terrestrial television that wouldnt be the case if there was a slow batting partnership and nothing exciting was happening.

if the Ashes had been shown on C4/C5/ITV this year (theres no way the BBC would pay out for it) would we have had Shane Warne doing a masterclass on leg spin bowling? we certainly wouldnt have had the calibre of commentators that Sky offered. nor would we have had the dozens of £100k a piece HD cameras filming it from every possible angle, not to mention the several super slow motion cameras and all of the technology they employ (hawkeye, hot spot, snicko, run out cameras, super slow-mo, etc)

maybe it takes it away from the masses, but something like 40% of UK households now have Sky TV, and of the 60% that dont have it id imagine many are elderly or uninterested in sports (since anyone that likes football almost certainly has a Sky subscription!!) which skews the figures a little. so if half of the UK has access to it at home, theres a VERY good chance that any kid who doesnt has a good mate who does (whos house they can visit to watch it. when i was a kid we never had sky, i used to go round my friends house to watch it). im not sure its really an issue in terms of the future of English cricket. there will always be interest, there needs to be a better uptake of talented youngsters into county academies to further their abilities. the ECB are making their fortunes with T20 cricket at present, so they need to reinvest it in plentiful amounts at club and county level to find the talented youth players. as opposed to stuffing their pockets which im sure is what is happening at present!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We had our club trials today where they grade my sons age group into two teams. It is still officially winter but it has been hot here for a few weeks now.

The two best bowlers there were the two wristspinners, my son and this lefthanded kid. They got more bounce and took more wickets than anyone really. This other kid i had not seen before but he was just as accurate as my young bloke but maybe he was getting a bit more bounce.

The two legspinners being the two most accurate bowlers was a surprise to some. my son got the best batsmen out and the kid acknowledged this with a "well bowled".

The nets where the trials where we know like the back of our hand, only trouble was today the breeze was at his tail.

It doesn't matter what team he makes really, but he probably did enough with the bat alone to make the firsts.

We have the school cricket trials in a few days.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

40% of the UK population have SKY? That needs substantiating, but then of that 40% how many have the sports package which is almost the same price as the basic package that the majority of the SKY subscribers have? My point is that if it was on the BBC so many more people would have access to cricket and the sport might grow because everyone would be able to access it rather than it be exclusive to those that can afford it.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

played my first proper game today. a 40 over game between the 2 sunday friendly teams at the club. i was playing for the 2's, the 1's basically had the 11 best players, and we got whoever was left lol. there were 5 kids in the team, but in fairness they were probably the best players lol. i dont think we had a bad side, but the 1st team was very good, they had a fair share of 1st team league players, and the rest of my team said they were the hardest opposition they had all season.

so anyway, we were fiedling first. our fielding was pretty good in general, we got early wickets with the seamers. but their middle order was good, they had a big partnership that took the game away from us.

anyway, i got to bowl midway through the innings, i got 5 overs back to back. i came on when they had a partnership that was really accelerating the scoring. one of the guys no-one knew too much about but he hit a century in the end. the other guy is an opener for the league first team i think.

it took me an over or 2 to get settled, when i did i didnt bowl that well, nowhere near what i was doing on Thursday. i had a bowl for 30 mins prior to the match in the nets and it didnt go well. i couldnt find any rhythm. in fact i made a huge improvement during the actual match lol.

i got slapped for quite a lot of runs, in the end my figures were 5-0-44-1. just the 1 wicket, but i bowled the first team batsman who was probably the best batter in their lineup with the first ball of my 3rd over. then a lefty came in, and i actual enjoyed bowling at a left hander. my action naturally wants to stray leg side, so my accuracy was very good lol. i should have had 2 more wickets though, i got the guy who went on to get 100 twice. once was absolutely plum LBW, no doubt in my mind, or the wicket keepers. but the umpires were just opposition players and he wouldnt give it, despite my extremely enthusiastic shouting lol. then in the same over i totally beat him with the ball and he got stumped. he was MILES out, a good 4-6" i reckon, the wicket keeper agreed. but the dirty cheat didnt walk, and the umpire didnt give it. ludicrous decision in my mind, he should have walked. we got our own back later though with the bat lol, we had a stumping that looked miles out not given against us.

all in all i bowled fairly poorly. even my balls that had good line and length (and sometimes good flight and air movement as well) didnt turn much. the opening seam bowler, and captain, hurt his back after a few great overs of pace bowling, and he also leg spins, so he did that instead. he was bowling from the other end to me with a tailwind and downhill and he got the ball to turn quite a lot. so im not sure if it was the pitch or just that i wasnt ripping it today. i totally switched off with regards analysing my deliveries, which is probably a good thing. i just bowled my natural stock ball all day. i threw in one flipper that was well bowled. the fact i bowled badly and still took a good wicket and should have had 2 more has got to be a promising sign though.

i faced a leg spinner, who got me out when i was batting, and he was bowling from the same end as me and he struggled to get any turn as well (and i found him easy boundary fodder because of it, until he got me out lol). and he was bowling MUCH more consistently than i did. he ended up with 3 wickets, one was mine and was a soft dismissal, i ran down the pitch at him to smash a 4 and got stumped. the other 2 were tail enders. i 2nd highest scored with the bat and felt pretty good, i got 18 runs (which im sure should have been 22, i think the scorer missed a 4) on my batting debut and hit four 4's (of which only 3 were noted on the scorecard). apparently my favourite shot is the sweep! i scored 3 boundaries that way, and one with a square shot through the off side when i got one bowled at me short and wide. i got dropped once, came close to getting caught twice, and had a missed stumping as well. so i wasnt without some luck, but it was a good first innings.

one cool thing i learned today is that the club i play for has about half a dozen leg spinners!! they said that they almost never see any when they play other teams, its just strange that we have a load of them, and some look pretty good.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

40% of the UK population have SKY? That needs substantiating, but then of that 40% how many have the sports package which is almost the same price as the basic package that the majority of the SKY subscribers have? My point is that if it was on the BBC so many more people would have access to cricket and the sport might grow because everyone would be able to access it rather than it be exclusive to those that can afford it.

Sky's figures for 2009 (maybe 2008) said that 9.2m households have Sky. a quick google says there are about 24m households in the UK. thus 38.3%

obviously Sky Sports is then an extra, id imagine that most people who have Sky have it primarily for the sports coverage though, certainly anyone who would watch cricket will almost certainly have the sports package already. people who dont like sports are obviously irrelevant here as they are never going to take up playing cricket if they dont already have an interest in physical activities of some description.

if the BBC covered cricket, id imagine it would be world class coverage. they have the technology and the personnel to pull it off. any of the other terrestrial providers would be below par, they do everything cheaply and compared to Sky it just isnt enjoyable to watch.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We had our club trials today where they grade my sons age group into two teams. It is still officially winter but it has been hot here for a few weeks now.

The two best bowlers there were the two wristspinners, my son and this lefthanded kid. They got more bounce and took more wickets than anyone really. This other kid i had not seen before but he was just as accurate as my young bloke but maybe he was getting a bit more bounce.

The two legspinners being the two most accurate bowlers was a surprise to some. my son got the best batsmen out and the kid acknowledged this with a "well bowled".

The nets where the trials where we know like the back of our hand, only trouble was today the breeze was at his tail.

It doesn't matter what team he makes really, but he probably did enough with the bat alone to make the firsts.

We have the school cricket trials in a few days.

Macca has your family got roots back in old blighty, maybe if so - your son can come and bowl for England as it sounds like our youngsters are pretty useless! Good luck to him in the school trials, sounds like it'll be a walk over.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Has anyone ever tried this ball. Looks very much like the carrom ball. Anyway should be a good straight ball CRICKETNDTV.com - Cricket Unlimited

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saw Beer as well. I think he was reasonable. Unfortunately we are spoilt and expect all leggies to be as good as warne or Kumble. He is still young and at least is being given the chance to learn. With warne he was quite accurate and his googly much better than warne's. It is a good sign if he does not bowl well and yet get wickets.

More impressive was Kaneria, who got 8 for about 114 in one innings. If I were you dave I would go down to the essex ground and see him practice. He has the best figures of the legspinners in county championship.

My usual captain makes the point that s**t bowling takes wickets and I think this is acknowledged in wrist spinning at club level. I was surprised at how mediocre they were on those sky clips and I can well beleive that they were bowling wides and short balls. I'd love to see these blokes for real, or better see them play in a club level match just to see how good they are compared to some of the spinners in our team for instance. I'm not convinced that they're that good and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a case of it being like in a lot work/professional situations here in the UK..... It's not what you know, it's who you know. I might be totally wrong and that viewed on the tele they may just looked awful but compared to the likes of us they are miles ahead of us?

 

[legspinenthusiast]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hi Guys,

I joined the big cricket forum for the wrist spin bowling discussion. It has been very informative and good knowledge.

I have two questions:

1] When I bowl legspin for 15-20 overs in the nets the skin on my 3rd spinning finger peels off. I get new skin again and later during the next net session it again peels off. I read somewhere that usually the skin hardens and this should not happen on a regular basis. Any comments or suggestions about how to handle it?

2] The second thing is that I get swelling in the knuckle area on the 3rd finger and it becomes painful. The exact pain is on the knuckle of the 3rd finger in my palm. It goes away in few days and then when I bowl again it comes back. Have any of you experienced this? Any ideas on how to tackle this?

3] I have been confused about the slider. Has anyone mastered it and can they shed more light on it?

I play cricket once a week during the summer and manage to bowl either good legspinners or top spinners. My brain is still not wired to bowl both together. Reading your discussions I think I might be able to figure it out. But overall either I get good purchase on legspinners or very fast bouncy topspinners..... Please answer.....

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Have a look at this image of Rashid Wright: Flintoff comparisons wrong - NatWest International Twenty20 - England - News - ECB should he be looking up there when he's bowling?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's a bloke on here (normally later on as he lives in Australia), he's got some ideas about something you can put on the skin to help. See what he says. The knuckle joints sounds a bit worrying and it sounds like you might be over-doing it - how old are you?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca,

Have you read the book 'Cricket - The Australian Way' by Jack Pollard. I've come across a link on the internet that explains....

"Years later came the flipper, a bosey or wrong-un which hastens off the pitch with top spin. Very few, probably not more than half a dozen, have been able to bowl it and all who acquired it did so only after years of practice. Bruce Dooland says in this book that the flipper was invented by wrist spinner Clarrie Grimmett in Grimmett’s fortieth year. Richie Benaud bowled it when he was in his prime, and was the only bowler in the world then using it.

Benaud learnt the flipper from Dooland, during his term at Nottingham frequently mesmerised English batsman with it. Nothing bowled in English cricket at that time could so completely surprise a batsman such as the flipper".

The interesting thing here is that the Flipper is described as a Top-Spinner and then it goes on to suggest that several other people bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper including Benuad. I always thought that Benaud bowled the back-spinning Flipper? Can you throw any light on these claims especially the claim that the Top-Spinning Flipper was one of Benauds balls. I thought that the Top-Spinner variant was unique to Grimmett and that it was pretty much lost to history and only described in Grimmetts old books?

Then there's this from http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html


"What Benaud describes is spun with the seam horizontal, with the same grip as a legbreak. He asserts that the ball 'skids' on pitching. What Jenner describes, and most people seem to have agreed on, is a ball which as far as I can tell is spun with backspin and a very different action to the legspinner's other weapons".

Which similarly suggests that Benaud did bowl the Top-Spinning Flipper?

How's your article on Grimmetts 'Mystery ball' going?

 

[legspinenthusiast]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's a bloke on here (normally later on as he lives in Australia), he's got some ideas about something you can put on the skin to help. See what he says. The knuckle joints sounds a bit worrying and it sounds like you might be over-doing it - how old are you?

I am 28 yrs old, 5feet-9inches or 176cm, 165lbs. The pain in the knuckle is only in the spinning finger......and it goes away if I take break for a week. Do you think I am imparting too much pressure? I am not the fittest person but I am really fascinated by spinning big.. and my top spinners are always above the waist of the batsmen and sometimes in there rib cage.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca,

Have you read the book 'Cricket - The Australian Way' by Jack Pollard. I've come across a link on the internet that explains....

"Years later came the flipper, a bosey or wrong-un which hastens off the pitch with top spin. Very few, probably not more than half a dozen, have been able to bowl it and all who acquired it did so only after years of practice. Bruce Dooland says in this book that the flipper was invented by wrist spinner Clarrie Grimmett in Grimmett’s fortieth year. Richie Benaud bowled it when he was in his prime, and was the only bowler in the world then using it.

Benaud learnt the flipper from Dooland, during his term at Nottingham frequently mesmerised English batsman with it. Nothing bowled in English cricket at that time could so completely surprise a batsman such as the flipper".

The interesting thing here is that the Flipper is described as a Top-Spinner and then it goes on to suggest that several other people bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper including Benuad. I always thought that Benaud bowled the back-spinning Flipper? Can you throw any light on these claims especially the claim that the Top-Spinning Flipper was one of Benauds balls. I thought that the Top-Spinner variant was unique to Grimmett and that it was pretty much lost to history and only described in Grimmetts old books?

Then there's this from Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling


"What Benaud describes is spun with the seam horizontal, with the same grip as a legbreak. He asserts that the ball 'skids' on pitching. What Jenner describes, and most people seem to have agreed on, is a ball which as far as I can tell is spun with backspin and a very different action to the legspinner's other weapons".

Which similarly suggests that Benaud did bowl the Top-Spinning Flipper?

How's your article on Grimmetts 'Mystery ball' going?

That Jack Pollard book was republished three times over three decades and each edition is different. Dooland writes a chapter in one edition and gives his ideas on legspin and explains his flipper. The quote above was by John Gleeson.

As you know in the perverse language of legspin sometimes any ball that goes straight on gets called a topspinner. Philpott can even call a backspinner a topspinner and we know what he is talking about.

Benaud learnt the backspinning flipper from dooland. I cant find any evidence he bowled the other "flippers".

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I am 28 yrs old, 5feet-9inches or 176cm, 165lbs. The pain in the knuckle is only in the spinning finger......and it goes away if I take break for a week. Do you think I am imparting too much pressure? I am not the fittest person but I am really fascinated by spinning big.. and my top spinners are always above the waist of the batsmen and sometimes in there rib cage.

Ah right that kind of throws a different kind of light on the matter. Having worked on building sites when I was around your age as a labourer and having to use tools and equipment that cause blisters. Also from my experience of playing guitar (Fingers on the strings) I reckon what's happening is it sounds as though in the matches that you're playing you're wearing the finger so much it's causing blisters, but then a whole week passes allowing the skin to repair. But that brand new skin which has only just grown back is then subjected to a pulverising again and never gets a chance to grow back. What I think needs to happen is that the skin needs to be subjected to the ball regularly or some other abrasion every day in order that the skin can be partially damaged but at the same time given the chance to slowly harden up. For instance if you work on a buidling site you just have to live with blisters and because the damage is daily rather than weekly, the new skin just hardens up and becomes a callous. In the same way with the fingers and guitars in order that I'd toughen up the tips of my fingers I'd just drag my fingers across any rough surface at any opportunity to make them hard and tough. So in short I think you're leaving the fingers too long in between bowling session, you need to wear that skin a lot more frequently in order that it toughens up. But I may be talking nonesense and someone who knows about dermatology may warn against this approach.

But having said that it also sounds like you're doing too much if you're getting swollen joints and I reckon you should post the details on one of the fitness and nutrition threads or email Liz Ward direct and ask her what she thinks as this sounds like it might be something serious.

I found that when I was learning one of my deliveries because of the new action my fingers suffered a bit and the joints ached, but that was because it was the use of the fingers in a new way. I'd get it checked out.

But other than that you're spinning the ball well and you seem happy with the results you're getting. Perhaps if you're alluding to the fact that maybe your grips a bit hard just try and loosen up a bit and see how it goes. My biggest turning Leg Break relies on a very loose grip and I think some of the others on here will testify to the fact that their grips are also loose. Additionally the master himself (Warne) advocates the use of a loose grip.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That Jack Pollard book was republished three times over three decades and each edition is different. Dooland writes a chapter in one edition and gives his ideas on legspin and explains his flipper. The quote above was by John Gleeson.

As you know in the perverse language of legspin sometimes any ball that goes straight on gets called a topspinner. Philpott can even call a backspinner a topspinner and we know what he is talking about.

Benaud learnt the backspinning flipper from dooland. I cant find any evidence he bowled the other "flippers".

MCC Cricket Masterclass - Vol. 1 - Batting, Bowling And Captaincy [1994] [VHS]: Tony Lewis, Viv Richards, Geoff Boycott, David Gower, Richie Benaud, Mike Brearley: Amazon.co.uk: Video

this is the video I've seen Benaud bowl the horizontal seam "flipper"