Wrist Spin Bowling

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah you'll find club spinners are alot slower than the pro's and most professionals are bowling it quicker than ever now. I doubt the speed gun in the nets would be as accurate as the ones they use in the international game. You'll probablly find it maybe 5mph slower(maybe more) than the international ones as the ones in the nets generally measure the speed in the air whereas the pro ones measure from the hand. One of our county pros at uni moaned about this last year when we had a go with a speed gun as it was measuring him 10mph slower than what he bowls when measured for the county, though it may just be the speed gun, calibration etc.

I've been working on upping my speed a little lately just through a more flowing action and better follow through and i'd say i've added a few mph or so without compromising my flight.

 

[leggielaw]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In terms of speed, its crucial to push the ball out of the hand with the whole face of the ball facing towards the batsmen, using a wrist flick whilst pushing the ball out the hand it shud catch the 3rd finger and spin rapidly at a flatter trajectory, although still spins up thanks to the 3rd finger.

i bowl my leg breaks at around 40-45mph and googly at 35-40mph although as gundalf said these club speed guns are not accurate and i could be faster or slower lol.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cheers Macca I've got the pictures and the text. All that's done is opened a can of worms!

Exactly, Its kind of like a full circle for me , because when Warne started bowling his flippers and everyone who didn't know how to bowl one was trying to work it out, I remembered the Grimmett book and how my oldest brother, who is 13 years older than me and became an offspinner ( dad never forgave him!), used to bowl that ball on plate 14 as part of his bag of tricks as an offspinner, and he copied it from the book.

I can't get " Art of Wristspin" from my local library anymore, but doesn't Philpott talk about some of that stuff, and talk about some oldendays offspinners that used their thumb as the spinning "finger".

Years after seeing the great English underarm bowler Simpson Hayward bowl in New Zealand, and having worked out the " flipper", Grimmett figured Hayward was using this same method, and accounted for the English bowlers incredible spin. So maybe the flipper is , God forgive me for saying this, a pommy invention after all! rather than by a Kiwi living in Oz.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca can you e mail the plates if you can to ebellia@maltanet.net

Thank you

And what do you mean he did not get pace off the ground with the backspinner. It definitely, skids off the ground faster than a topspinner or leg break. Even philpott stated that every good aussie leg spinner had a good backspinner to be really successful, and also the technique was as guarded as a state secret.

Saddo are you trying this as well? I think this refers to his process of learning the Flipper, he wasn't happy with the fact that the backspin stalls the ball, hence he turns it around for this forward spinning flipper?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca or Dave do you think you could upload the plates by grimmett on this site and eventually on the leg spin site for public consumption.

Besides the clicking action for the flipper, do you use your wrist to add back spin.I can do it over a short distance, but over the full 22yards am bowling it too full and outside off stump, and suspect i might be throwing it/straightening the arm a bit to get some power.

Oh and dave thank you for the you tube video on the flipper. You get very good baqckspin there without much effort.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In terms of speed, its crucial to push the ball out of the hand with the whole face of the ball facing towards the batsmen, using a wrist flick whilst pushing the ball out the hand it shud catch the 3rd finger and spin rapidly at a flatter trajectory, although still spins up thanks to the 3rd finger.

i bowl my leg breaks at around 40-45mph and googly at 35-40mph although as gundalf said these club speed guns are not accurate and i could be faster or slower lol.

Man that's fast!!!!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I know i might have asked this before, but how much in percentage do you reckon you get spin by the following

Fingers
Wrist flick
shoulder and forearm
Pivot

I think I get most of mine from my fingers in fact it seems to go too high above the eyeline (who said a pie) and too slowly.Even though the spin would be less than half warnies

 

[leggielaw]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

lol thanks

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I know i might have asked this before, but how much in percentage do you reckon you get spin by the following

Fingers
Wrist flick
shoulder and forearm
Pivot

I think I get most of mine from my fingers in fact it seems to go too high above the eyeline (who said a pie) and too slowly.Even though the spin would be less than half warnies

I think it would be a bit hard to put a figure on it. They all work together to produce the spin. You can certainly say that if you make a horrible mistake with your wrist position or wrist flick you won't get any. I've done this quite a few times., both in terms of wrist position(I bowl a ball that is mostly over-spin) and wrist flick(the ball floats up with hardly any revs and goes straight on after pitching). So I would say that an adequate wrist flick and wrist position are absolutely required.

However, the other factors are extremely important as well. There have been two instances of a great increase in the amount of turn I get: one was improving the use of my shoulders and front arm. The other was using a full pivot. Improving both those things just about doubled the amount of turn I get.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In terms of speed,

One thing about speed and legspinners is history shows the taller the legspinner the faster he bowls. I reckon every legspinner if he is using his fingers, wrist ,hips and shoulders fully, always appears faster in the middle facing him than from the boundary.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes that front arm is very important and neglected eow.I have to make a concious effort to keep it close to my ribs when i have lowered it from the up position. Also the pivot really helps generate spin. Despite the warne video you had posted i still find difficulty in knowing when to release the ball. Is there a way of slowing or freezing the slow motion sequences on you tube to pick the exact place where he releases the ball?

 

[leggielaw]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

im small, around 5ft 9 so i guess its easier for me to get flight with faster delieveries.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This article is interesting in that two leg spinners were playing together, in the same game, and yet they bowled a completely different line. Warne around or outside leg stump due to his leg break,MacGill at or outside offstump as I presume he used his googly frequently. So two leg spinner, different strengths and different lines. Though I believe philpott advices middle or middle and off stump line for mere mortals. Cricinfo - A masterclass in legspin bowling

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

im small, around 5ft 9 so i guess its easier for me to get flight with faster delieveries.

That makes since, Grimmett made use of the same thing, even though he generally falls in the short/slow catergory he was by all accounts deceptively faster than what he appeared. Also he made the ball spin fast which is often different from making it turn a long way.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca or Dave do you think you could upload the plates by grimmett on this site

If you want sadspinner I could send you a paper copy or scans of the book. The book has no copyright notice anywhere on it so it would br O.K. If you like, send me a private message of where to send it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mention of the wrong wrong one at the end here. Wisden - 1999 - The history of mystery



Received plates macca thanks again

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

% spinning, that's a difficult one. Top spinner - I use all the levers with that one, but that's very wristys and fingery. Flipper - primarily fingers and thumb, then a bit of backwards wrist I reckon. Leg Break - third finger only - my leg break is more like a leg cutter. Wrong Un - massively wristy with a bit of finger and all the other levers too. I don't think I could decribe any of them realistically in terms of % because I don't really understand how the shoulder for instance is helping with each indiviudal delivery.


On the Warne at 55mph subject I'm wondering did he still get the ball to dip at that speed - because if he did that's incredible or was the fast ball the flipper and the slider?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This article is interesting in that two leg spinners were playing together, in the same game, and yet they bowled a completely different line. Warne around or outside leg stump due to his leg break,MacGill at or outside offstump as I presume he used his googly frequently. So two leg spinner, different strengths and different lines. Though I believe philpott advices middle or middle and off stump line for mere mortals. Cricinfo - A masterclass in legspin bowling

The biggest problem with young spinners is they try to bowl Warnes line. Big, big mistake.The very occassional ball down there is ok especially if the batsman is a bit sus. I reckon just as you should err on the side of full length over short, so should kids err in favour of offside over leg. And have a traditional legspinners field to bowl to.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If you want sadspinner I could send you a paper copy or scans of the book. The book has no copyright notice anywhere on it so it would br O.K. If you like, send me a private message of where to send it.

Without knowing the copyright laws in Australia that's a bit dodgey. I noted that there's a really good picture of Grimmett that I obtained from the National Library/archive or something some weeks back - but it was copyrighted despite the fact that the image is more than 50 years old. Here in the UK if the image is over 50 years old and no-one claims the copyright, the copyright expires. I'm sure there must be trustees of Clarrie Grimmetts images and they look after the 'Rights to use'. I noted that some of his images are managed by Getty Images and they hold the copyright seemingly and they're very precious about copyright, so that's a bit of an iffy area.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mention of the wrong wrong one at the end here. Wisden - 1999 - The history of mystery



Received plates macca thanks again

Maybe I should go back to using it, I've left it a bit this year because of it's lack of speed and the fact that it's obvious if you know me -what I'm about to bowl. Maybe I should drop calling it the Gipper and give it it's proper name?

While I'm at it I just want to note that my thumb is suffering at the 1st joint down from the nail through bowling all the Flipper variations, I've been going at it so much with the Backward flipper and the Grimmett flipper I'm over-doing it physically, so I'll have to ease up.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This article is interesting in that two leg spinners were playing together, in the same game, and yet they bowled a completely different line. Warne around or outside leg stump due to his leg break,MacGill at or outside offstump as I presume he used his googly frequently. So two leg spinner, different strengths and different lines. Though I believe philpott advices middle or middle and off stump line for mere mortals. Cricinfo - A masterclass in legspin bowling

Yeah that makes sense to me. I'd only ever bowl at wide of leg if I knew the bloke was useless down his legside, in most cases anyone with a few years of cricket under their belts are pretty good down the legside against weak legspin. That's a tactic well beyond me for a few years I reckon if bowling against good players.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you agree that the grimmett plates show the following without being privvy to the actual text

plate 10: leg break/doosra
plate 11: offspinner
plate 12: topspinner
plate 13: backspinner
plate 14: topspinner quite similar to plate 12

They all seem to be with a leg break grip, funnily enough contrary to warne/jenner with an important input from the thumb. I do not seem to see any flippers reverse or normal here if you look closely.

What are your ideas, and I was pleased to see that he practiced them for twelve years to perfect them. So till I am 50 I should suss them as someone says on this site.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Exactly, Its kind of like a full circle for me , because when Warne started bowling his flippers and everyone who didn't know how to bowl one was trying to work it out, I remembered the Grimmett book and how my oldest brother, who is 13 years older than me and became an offspinner ( dad never forgave him!), used to bowl that ball on plate 14 as part of his bag of tricks as an offspinner, and he copied it from the book.

I can't get " Art of Wristspin" from my local library anymore, but doesn't Philpott talk about some of that stuff, and talk about some oldendays offspinners that used their thumb as the spinning "finger".

Years after seeing the great English underarm bowler Simpson Hayward bowl in New Zealand, and having worked out the " flipper", Grimmett figured Hayward was using this same method, and accounted for the English bowlers incredible spin. So maybe the flipper is , God forgive me for saying this, a pommy invention after all! rather than by a Kiwi living in Oz.

No I don't think he does directly, I think he suggests that the same 'Around the circle' approach can be applied to the Flipper, but he doesn't really go on about the flipper that much at all and seems to refer to Grimmett, Benaud and Warne primarily as if he can't bowl it himself? He makes the point that if you're a serious wrist spinner you've got to have a back-spinning ball and he comes down on the side of taking 'The Biggun' round the circle that step further so that it is spinning backwards and comes out of the back of the hand. I think once you start looking at all of these balls in terms of going around the circle you start to appreciate that if you're a wrist spinner you are in it for the long haul if you want to be able to do it really well and Grimmet talking about experimenting with variations for 10 - 12 years starts to ring true.

Plate 14 (Shall I upload it to my blog I wonder)? I'm assuming is the Warnesque/Benuad Flipper upside down so as you've said does the reverse and thus - it goes on? It's not something I've tried, but I've tried the flipper with the hand turned clockwise 45 degrees which should technically make it spin like off-spin ball. In theory if you worked at it and was able to bowl your bog standard warnesque flipper it does seems as though it should be relatively easy to suss it out and may only take several hours to get it. I have had a go and over short distances it does work, but it feels totally alien and as though if you could do it it might cause problems with your Warnesque Flipper - it has that 'Learning the wrong un feeling' about it - which as we know leads to the Googly syndrome. At 48 and just a club cricketer who still doesn't possess a good leg break it's way down my list of priorities, but definitely interesting.

I wonder what Philpott would make of our conversations here? Do any of the other forums go into the subject to the extent that we do?

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well I had a pretty poor net practice yesterday. Sprayed them everywhere.

Pitched most balls a yard or two short. Mistimed the release and pivot both ways, sending some way outside off-stump and others way down leg-side.

Still it ended on a high note. The last ball I bowled was a beautiful drifting, vicious spinning leg-break that turned about two feet(at the stumps) off a length. Quite possibly the best ball I've ever bowled.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca or Dave do you think you could upload the plates by grimmett on this site and eventually on the leg spin site for public consumption.

Besides the clicking action for the flipper, do you use your wrist to add back spin.I can do it over a short distance, but over the full 22yards am bowling it too full and outside off stump, and suspect i might be throwing it/straightening the arm a bit to get some power.

Oh and dave thank you for the you tube video on the flipper. You get very good baqckspin there without much effort.

I've never though that much about the role the wrist plays in the Flipper but you could be right in suggesting that it does and just clicking my fingers here sitting at my desk suggests that I may well do so and it might be a big part of it and I was completely unaware. I'm going to have a look at the video clip on youtube and see what I do in that!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you agree that the grimmett plates show the following

plate 10: gipper
plate 11: _ _ipper
plate 12: _ _ipper
plate 13: flipper
plate 14: topspinner quite similar to plate 12

I think that's right ! I will try and get you the text.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The slowest I can remember Warne bowling as measured by the speed gun was the high 70's in kilometres per hour, so that range sounds about right.

I'm not sure what effect the speed of a delivery has on actual dip. The delivery will tend to be flatter, so it will dip form a lower height, but I'm not sure how actual movement that is caused by the over-spin is effected.

In my experience it doesn't seem to be much different; of course I don't bowl any where near 50 mph(at least I'm pretty sure I don't ), but the quicker balls that I've bowled have dipped quite well. And you've got to remember Warne put a lot of revs on the ball, and was stronger, so he would be able to bowl a quicker ball in a higher arc than we would.

EOW I think you make a good point about Warne's strength. He's quite a stocky bloke probably a bit over-weight at times during his career, but he's got big forearms and I would imagine big upper arms and shoulders. If you've ever watched those bloke that do those crap programs like 'The strongest bloke on the planet' where they do things like single handedly drag the statue of liberty 50 yards or something equally ridiculous, they're never Arnold schwarznegger or Rambo looking strong blokes they're always big old fat biffers that look as though they need to ease up on the pies as we say here in the UK. So Warne kind of looks as though he's of that Ilk, if he wasn't playing cricket he may have ended up in scrap yard with a shaved bald head lifting engine out of cars on his own with his bare hands? One of our spinners albeit a finger spinner gets massive offspin at high speed and he's the same - a big old boy, so that has obviously got something to do with it I reckon?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Maybe I should go back to using it, I've left it a bit this year because of it's lack of speed and the fact that it's obvious if you know me -what I'm about to bowl. Maybe I should drop calling it the Gipper and give it it's proper name ?

I prefer gipper. I reckon under Bowlers Union laws if you discover a delivery by your own experimentation you can call it what you want. Some of those deliveries Warne got his hands around, like zooters and hooters....hang on hooters wasn't a delivery, but he certainly got his hands aruond some!.. anyway they were nothing new.
Grimmett, Bedser, Philpott, all say bowlers should invent and try and come up with their own solutions. But there is nothing new under the sun, and in the 1800's blokes were bowling all sorts of stuff, probably doosras and flippers and everything else.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

On the Warne at 55mph subject I'm wondering did he still get the ball to dip at that speed - because if he did that's incredible or was the fast ball the flipper and the slider?

No, he definitely got it to dip in that speed range. His stock ball was in the 80s in terms of kph, which is exactly in that range. I can remember watching many dipping over-spun leg-breaks.

Watch at the very end of the ball of the century's flight.

YouTube - shane warne

There is a considerable amount of dip.

Is there a way of slowing or freezing the slow motion sequences on you tube to pick the exact place where he releases the ball?

Not that I know of I'm afraid.

 

[Virendersingh.berthwal]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Today i went for net practice after more than one week.
Had difficulty for the first few balls but after bowling 4-5 deliveries;i was in the rhythm and bowled superbly to the batsmen troubling them and struck gold by bowling my captain from around the wicket ball pitched on leg stump and bowled his off stump out---similar the kind of delivery mike gatting got bowled to shane warne...that was the sight to be seen...superb having be doing it on a regular basis now...i enjoy the look on the batsmen's face after that....

Enjoyed bowling and avoid batting for the same.

Unfortunately i will be out of town for work so will miss the net tomorrow and then on "Good Friday" will attend the nets.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm gutted I never got to see him in real life, I had several opportunities and never bothered. The camera angles don't really let you see what happens properly, but if that ball leaves the hand parrellel to the pitch at 55mph it shouldn't really hit the deck till way past the stumps and yet it dips and lands in front of the stumps! The amount of spin that he's putting on it to do that must be amazing.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

plate 10: gipper
plate 11: _ _ipper
plate 12: _ _ipper
plate 13: flipper
plate 14: topspinner quite similar to plate 12

I think that's right ! I will try and get you the text.

Blimey that's an ask - Plate 10 looks like the backward Flipper - the same ball as plate 14.

Plate 11, is interesting and is potentially bowled with the thumb nearest the face and the little finger the bat and then flicked with the thumb potentially? Looks very interesting.

Plate 12 looks like 11 from a different angle?

Plate 13 is the same technique as 11 & 12 but with the arm/wrist rotated 180 degrees? So would back spin?

All of these rely primarily with flicking the ball using the thumb in the Iverson Gleeson/Carumb ball way by the looks of it. Which is hell of a difficult thing to do compared with the Flipper thumb click.

Plate 14 is the backward flipper - the hand is simply turned 180 degrees so that the ball spins over itself as a top spinner and breaks like an off-break.

That's what I reckon anyway!

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm gutted I never got to see him in real life, I had several opportunities and never bothered. The camera angles don't really let you see what happens properly, but if that ball leaves the hand parrellel to the pitch at 55mph it shouldn't really hit the deck till way past the stumps and yet it dips and lands in front of the stumps! The amount of spin that he's putting on it to do that must be amazing.

Well I never actually saw him in the real life either. It was on the TV.

It would be possible to pull it down wouldn't it? I mean sure if you aimed and released at the same point for a 30 mph delivery as a 55 mph delivery, the 55 mph delivery should travel farther; but you could aim and release it to land shorter.

Okay, I just looked up the magnus effect on wikipedia , Magnus effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and it seems the velocity of the ball affects how much force is applied to the ball to produce drift. This means that by bowling faster it would increase the downwards force on the ball.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'd love to be able to do that! I might do it with a wrong un, but with a leg break - no chance for the moment although I did it today with a plastic ball against a kid - pitched miles wide of leg stump came across the front of him and hit the off stump bail - but I reckon it was more a lump than a spin!!!

Virender who's that spin bowler who plays for India at the moment who rotates his arm twice in his delivery, I've been doing that today and it works quite well, a mate of mine here in the UK another Indian Bloke Nakul he does that as well and he's very accurate.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No I don't think he does directly, I think he suggests that the same 'Around the circle' approach can be applied to the Flipper, but he doesn't really go on about the flipper that much at all and seems to refer to Grimmett, Benaud and Warne primarily as if he can't bowl it himself?

It was over 30 years ago, but I am pretty sure I saw him demo the flipper hand to hand, then tell everyone not to worry about it, as it was "post-graduate" stuff and not in the leg-break family. But he called it a "flipper". I dont know if he bowled it during his career, he was probably shown it by Benaud. Philpott made his First class debut for NSW aged 15!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

plate 10: leg break/doosra
plate 11: offspinner
plate 12: topspinner
plate 13: backspinner
plate 14: topspinner quite similar to plate 12

They all seem to be with a leg break grip, funnily enough contrary to warne/jenner with an important input from the thumb. I do not seem to see any flippers reverse or normal here if you look closely.

That is if that is what the batsman sees. If we cannot make head or tails of what they are, poor batsman yhat had to face him.

By the way Macca, Ashley Mallett wrote a biography about grimmett. It seems to be out of stock from amazon. Do you think it is any good?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My 11 year old bowled a great flipper on Sunday morning, but I have had to stop him bowling it. We might just spend only 20 minutes a fortnight doing some exercises with a smaller softer ball and come back to it in a few years. I think I know now why they advise against it ,because it starts to hurt too much and it can't be that good for their hands.

But that's O.K because he only wanted something to bowl every so often that didn't bounce so much. I think we will go for the slider that Philpott calls the back-spinning top-spinner. He can already bowl it against the wall so we are on the way. I can teach him the full loop then.

Grimmett doesn't go that far around the loop, he stops at the side spun leg-break at 90 degrees to the topspinner and says that is the max break. He didn't like back-spin except as a rare variation as he thought he couldn't gain pace off the wicket with it.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's what I reckon anyway!

Yeah I got it wrong a bit, but it all depends the way you look at it I suppose. Grimmett used the grips to demonstrate the 4 basic different types of spin available, usually with a sqash ball on a table in his home, to anyone that was interested. The first time he played Bradman in a S.A v NSW Shield game he invited the young batsman ,amongst others, to his house after play one evening to give him a demo of spin on his table, maybe to try and plant a few doubts in his mind?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Even though I said I wouldn't I found I had 15 minutes of doing nothing and tried that forward spinning Flipper as in Plate 14 and it's not that difficult and I'm going to say that it doesn't feel as though it would affect my other Flipper variations. But it's an interesting variation especially as it acts like wrong un but would look nothing like a wrong un and could potentially catch a better batsman out. I've been bowling it on and off all day since first trying it this morning. I video'd myself bowling it this morning, there's no accuracy there as yet needless to say but the spin is there - forward and offy. So I might pursue it a bit more.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

By the way Macca, Ashley Mallett wrote a biography about grimmett. It seems to be out of stock from amazon. Do you think it is any good?

Yes , it is called " Scarlet" one of grimmetts many nicknames was scarl or scarlet after the scarlet pimpernell. It is an update of Malletts earlier bio called "Grimmett, the Bradman of Spin".
I am trying to get my library to get it at the moment.