Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cotton Eye Joe;344418 said:
Could it be that the ground I'm using to bowl on isn't exactly level? I have to go out to a park, find a tree, mark off the distance to the bowling crease and bowl at the tree, since you can't get a wicket in America... :(

... Or could it be that I've taught myself to bowl a flipper instead of the leg break?
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Yes, it could quite possibly be that the ground is uneven or sloped. Three feet is a massive amount of turn(unless your pitching it yards short of course). I played quite a few backyard style games in a carpark(using a tennis ball) that sloped away to the left. The turn the leg-break got was ridiculous. Probably about three feet off a length(and this when I had a rather lousy action with only a half-pivot).The most I've ever gotten off an even surface(although I strongly suspect that it is spin friendly) in the nets is two feet off a length.

It is very easy to tell if you are bowling a flipper. The flipper is the delivery with the clicking of the fingers motion at release.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah he's good - he's our top wicket taker. He doesn't turn it much and says that himself and if he does get it to turn it's generally off spin into a RH bat. What he does do that's good and it's something you might have noticed that I myself have been getting excited about is bowl a delivery which falls out of the sky like a stone (Dip) and this is his off-spinner so it's his LH version of the leg break. But at the same time he does tend to bowl towards the end of the match and get all the Bunnies thus he has the club record for the most wickets in a year. But he's a good bowler - very accurate and fast with that dip and he knows what he's doing as he's been at it for nearly 20 years I think so he looks for the batsman weaknesses and recognises them and then bowls accordingly.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cotton Eye Joe;344401 said:
:eek: I've got a problem... I have come to the conclusion that I can bowl a better wrong 'un than leg break. That doesn't seem right. My leg break is almost straight, and low... Almost like a flipper. My wrong 'un moves more than three feet. Is there anything seriously wrong with me, or can I just not bowl a leg break?
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Cotton Eye Joes problem ,as Dave said , sounds like a bad case of wrongun syndrome, the other ball you have got might be some sort of accidental "slider". It doesn't sound like a leg break.
You must be releasing the ball with the back of your hand facing the batsman with ball coming over the palm of your hand, it sounds like you are getting good offspin though, so you must be getting some things right. A well spun wrongun will even drift towards off before spinning back in.
As you probably know we are big on Philpotts coaching methods here and as sadspinner was saying a good place to start learning a legspinner is underarm and the difference with a wrongun becomes immediately apparent.
It is far easier to demonstrate than describe but if you hold the ball so the back of your hand is facing the ground with your wrist cocked and your fingers facing your stomach , the hand is pointing to the left for the righthander and is on the inside of the arm. As you flick your wrist away from your body, frisbee like, the third finger goes from pointing to you and ends up pointing away,having imparted spin, the ball should travel up and spin clockwise. If you turn your wrist ,anti-clockwise, until the ball is leaving the outside of your arm with your hand pointing right, that is the wrongun.
As you look down at this underarm position you are seeing the delivery as the batsman would see it and when you get the hang of it try roundarm, now the legbreak comes from "underneath" the arm with the back of the hand facing the sky and the wrongun from "above", with the back of the hand facing the ground.
When you get the hang of roundarm move on to overarm, but dont worry about the wrongun too much at first, try and get the legbreak happenning. At release the back of your hand should face you and your palm face the batsman. The wrist moves right to left, the third finger should impart anti-clockwise spin from the bowlers viewpoint.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Had a great net session today. Worked on getting the front arm into the delivery more. It was superb; the pace was so much better and there were a far smaller number of short balls.

There were a couple of other people there at the nets for a short while, so I got to have a short bowl at a batsmen. Did quite well, although the batsmen made it kind of easy by charging me half the time. Stumpings galore.

sadspinner said:
Yes where I practice is concrete so the bounce gets high and misses the stump height.
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Yeah, I have similar situation. The local nets are a matting-concrete surface, so my length leg-breaks tend to bounce half a foot to a foot over the stumps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;344433 said:
What do you do normally? I'd imagine what with it being a game where you're looking to make runs with every ball virtually - the batsman has got to be aggressive and look to dominate you? That to me sounds like you should be in for some wickets - how soon to the they play you normally?

I've just looked at who's on line and there's 5 people 4 of whom are wrist spinners that contribute to this thread!

NZ and India are on-line at the minute with Vettori bowling, it could be a long night as it 00.08hrs here in the UK!
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I normally put it on about middle-off and fairly full, turning it to slips, But I get smashed alot so I don't know if thats good for T20.

I normally start bowling about half way threw the game.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i have a question, i can spin hard spun legbreaks hand to hand with the third finger but i get a sore elbow, Why? And i can spin hardspun legbreaks round arm ( As Phillpott suggests) But for some reason i can't do it underarm? Also when i bowl normally the ball still spins even though i haven't spun it as hardest as i can, So how can i spin the ball hard just like i do hand to hand and experiencing the burn of friction in the third finger.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Not sure of the exact type. I currently have three: one was a Christmas present a couple of years ago, I think it was a two-piece. One I found lying about at the nets.

The other was given to me by a coach who was at my local nets watching one of his players. He saw me bowling and was rather impressed(this really had me rather concerned about the quality of club spinners :)), told me to get organised and join a team, then gave me a cricket ball. So I really have no idea what type the last two balls are(they were both a bit worn at the time I got them so the text that says the type of ball was worn off).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ripping-LegBreak;344461 said:
i have a question, i can spin hard spun legbreaks hand to hand with the third finger but i get a sore elbow, Why?
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How long have you had the sore elbow? Does it hurt to throw? have you thrown your arm out? Could be golfers/tennis elbow, can be caused by throwing. If it lasts more than a fortnight and doesn't heal through rest you might have to see a quack.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Unspinable;344450 said:
I normally put it on about middle-off and fairly full, turning it to slips, But I get smashed alot so I don't know if thats good for T20.
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Middle-off line sounds O.K, fairly full length is better than short, but you mustn't overpitch. Length varies according to lots of things but somewhere Grimmett says a good length ball for a legspinner is roughly about 4 yards in front of the stumps. Which seems too short.
You mostly have to try and bring the batsman forward but it has to be short enough so he cant get to you on the half volley or full easily, but not so short he can get on the backfoot and punish you, it depends on the batsmans strengths, it helps if you know if he favours front-foot or back-foot play before you even bowl to him.
Watch the batsmans footwork and if he is a frontfoot player he may start edging towards you before you even deliver the ball and a backfoot player may begin moving his backfoot back and across early in the delivery. If he is predominantly a backfoot player keep the ball up, and if he favours the backfoot, pitch it up a bit further. If he is good both ways , then it gets harder.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So the surface is concrete with a mat thing on top and that's giving too much bounce? Try cheap rubbish balls like the Davidson ones that you find on-line, they're made of rubbish literally and have no give in them e.g. no bounce, so if you're using quality balls you might find the Davidson balls a lot less bouncy?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

the elbow is not sore it only hurts when i spin the ball really hard from hand to hand and i hear a crack in my elbow then it doesent hurt anymore basically i think i use my wrist too much and thats what causes the unneccesary pain in the elbow joint, I do not use my fingers very often so that might be the case , if i use my fingers i tend to drag it down. What do you think?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Gundalf, was seeing your avatar. That is the identical grip i use!! I then try the Iverson/gleeson picture as per my avatar to try to keep the ball straighter by flicking the middle finger, but this is still in the embryonic phase. Then use the classic 2 up 2 down to bowl the googly. To bowl the flipper, I use a grip similar to the one in a picture of kaneria i had posted some time ago.

Do you manage to bowl the googly or the big leg break with that grip? Will be interesting to know.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ripping-LegBreak;344492 said:
the elbow is not sore it only hurts when i spin the ball really hard from hand to hand and i hear a crack in my elbow then it doesent hurt anymore basically i think i use my wrist too much and thats what causes the unneccesary pain in the elbow joint, I do not use my fingers very often so that might be the case , if i use my fingers i tend to drag it down. What do you think?
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lol i know what ur doing.... your tensing the muscles around ur elbow and ur all stiff and tight, what you need to do is relax the power of ur delivery comes from many elements and your trying to force it, just relax ur elbow and have a loose grip on the ball and flick the wrist and let it roll of your 3rd finger, hope this solves your problem. The more your wrist is relaxed the more of a flick you can give the ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Concrete pitches and net set-ups are everywhere around here, there would be 10 almost within walking distance of our house. The best thing is they all face different directions , so I like to look for a headwind mostly to get ideal conditions for drop. Kids grow up playing on concrete and when they graduate to turf pitches defects with their bowling become apparent. Even in one of Grimmetts books he talks about this problem and he says it was peculiar to Australia. He says lots of youngsters have to learn their bowling all over again.
If a kid is bowling his leg spin properly, and doing most things right he won't get many clean bowled wickets on concrete, because of the bounce.
It's a good idea if you can get to have a bowl on a turf pitch or nets every so often just to see what bounce you are really achieving without the effect of the concrete. Using balls that dont bounce as much every so often to check is a good idea, but some of the cheaper balls are hard on willow bats so bowling to no batsman is better. It helps if you know a curator. At the end of the season is a good time to get a go on grass.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

leggielaw;344501 said:
lol i know what ur doing.... your tensing the muscles around ur elbow and ur all stiff and tight, what you need to do is relax the power of ur delivery comes from many elements and your trying to force it, just relax ur elbow and have a loose grip on the ball and flick the wrist and let it roll of your 3rd finger, hope this solves your problem. The more your wrist is relaxed the more of a flick you can give the ball.
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Yes that could be the problem and the answer. This is what Benaud says "...the wrist should be cocked, but DEFINITELY NOT (his emphasis) stiffly cocked, which would prevent flexibility and , in delivery, would give you the feeling the ball was simply falling out of your fingers." Which is what leggielaw is saying , I think.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You are right macca. But due to dry weather here and the massive unpopularity of cricket in my country there are no turf pitches here. Before i used to pravtice on a football ground with a rather sandy surface, the bounce was much lower and you had to pitch it fuller or it would bounce twice before reaching the stumps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ripping-LegBreak;344461 said:
And i can spin hardspun legbreaks round arm ( As Phillpott suggests) But for some reason i can't do it underarm?
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I bet you already can. It is the opposite of roundarm, and it feels funny at first because everything is upside down and reversed. With your palm facing up, and the back of the hand facing the ground, you are flicking it left to right rather than right to left. Start off over a short distance, against a wall is good, or to another legspinner is ideal.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;344473 said:
. If he is predominantly a backfoot player keep the ball up, and if he favours the backfoot, pitch it up a bit further.
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That should read " if he is predominantly a backfoot player pitch the ball up, and if he favours the frontfoot, try pitching it a bit shorter "
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Back in Sept/Oct when I still couldn't get any of my balls other than the Flipper and Gipper to turn towards off and I was still searching for my Leg Break. But a really important step in getting it right was the inclusion of lifting the leg over and through in the pivot action (I think this was a point made in the Beau Casson video) and then someone else said that it helps if that action is so exaggerated that you end up kicking your arse as the leg comes through - which may have been Macca. So focusing on the pivot using those bits of advice lead to me re-discovering my Leg Break in part.

I think my better Leg Breaks happen when it feels as though I've been suspended longer on the pivot foot, which I suppose also means the shoulder must fully come over each other in the their rotation too - so this suggest you hang on to the ball longer and it comes off that crucial 3rd finger much later and therefore gets more revs?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah sadspinner I bowl the topspinner, googly and leg break all with the same grip most of the time(googly occasionally has my thumb on the ball). Flipper though is more of an orthodox leg break grip though with thumb underneath. I can bowl a big googly and a big leg break, though it doesn't seem to turn as much as my normal leg breaks, though i'm guessing that is surface dependant.

As for the high bouncing leg breaks, you'll have to use a low bouncing ball or just get used to practicing with the ball going over the stumps though you know on a proper turf wicket it will hit. Its just an experience thing I guess to get used to bowling on turf or concrete but as long as your bowling the right length for the pitch you'll be playing on your alright, though it helps to practice changing your length anyway for when you need to do it in a game situation e.g. if someone is taking guard outside the crease.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

leggielaw;344501 said:
lol i know what ur doing.... your tensing the muscles around ur elbow and ur all stiff and tight, what you need to do is relax the power of ur delivery comes from many elements and your trying to force it, just relax ur elbow and have a loose grip on the ball and flick the wrist and let it roll of your 3rd finger, hope this solves your problem. The more your wrist is relaxed the more of a flick you can give the ball.
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Yeah I'm in agreement with the comment here, you're using one lever rather than all the levers and the finger as far as I'm concerned is essential, you've just got to persevere with the fact that if you bring the finger into your action you drag it down - you've just got to learn not to drag it down - maybe the idea that you push the ball forward might help?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes that is what I mean , when i release later as you say the turn seems to be better.
Gundalf, I do not manage to turn my wrist so much with that grip somehow, probably an age factor. I wonder whether any decent leg spinner bowled with this grip in the past. I read that Kumble bowls one of his googlies with his thumb and forefinger only.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah, i don't know of any leggies that primarilly used that grip, the closest is gleeson. The grip itself the only disadvantages when compared to the normal are it seems to be slightly harder to keep the seam straight(if the thumb isn't on the ball) and it maybe comes out a touch slower than with the orthodox grip. Its hard to know really if anyone has used this before as the grips were so closely guarded by the spinners of old and every spinner has their own slight variations from the norm.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, I think whether predominantely a front or backfoot player, jenner says the aim is to make the batsman drive. So as you say the length should be a drivable one. Though at our level it is one thing to say it and fantasy to carry it out.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My grips seem to be changing at the moment, I'm still searching for the grip that gives me the best results with the leg break. The differences seem very subtle but seem to result in a big difference with the amount of turn I get off the wicket. But I might be mistaken in thinking it's the grip that's making the difference - it could well be that my general action on some days is so much better without me realising it and then I attribute the improvement to the grip? It's not easy is it this Wrist Spin lark!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave he used to practice with a stump and a golf ball. Though I doubt whether this would be the main reason of his success. I am sure many of his generation practiced in some similar way. The truth is he was a great athlete, with great hand eye co-ordination, and great reflexes allied to his light bat that allowed him an array of shots ( i think it weighed 2lbs2oz). I may try a size 6 bat , i will be pleased with an average of 50. So thinking that the next batsman averaged 35 runs less means that this man was from another planet, could he be an extraterrestrial. By the way his wrist spin seemed to be very good if you have seen his averages.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah its amazing the difference with the action on the turn and the speed the ball comes out. When I manage to get side on now I get much more turn and better accuracy compared to if i'm slightly front on. The difference in speed is also amazing, from a standing start my action is about 40mph, stock ball with most of the run up is more like 45-47 and if I get the rhythm right and spin it quite hard its low 50's
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you guys tend to pitch too full or too short. Macca showed us how grimmett would have erred towards pitching fuller. I have a tendency to pitch shorter, about 5 yards from the batsman's crease despite the energy i put in run up etc. I think it might be that I get predominantely topspin. The only full delivery being the flipper that is usually nearly a yorker with a bit of swing inwards.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm pretty happy with my grip a the moment. It is nice and loose; with the the two fingers up and the two fingers down as far apart as I can get them. The two fingers that are up are close together and the thumb resting on the ball almost parallel to the seam.

I changed it a little while back so to was looser; it seamed to improve the spin I got, but I was also working front arm and pivot at the same time, so it's a bit hard to tell. I think it must of had some effect. My pervious grip was really tight; the ball seem to sort of stick in my hand a bit.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Should there be a gap between the hand and fingers when gripping the ball, because i hold it in the hand, with no gap, But i can still get my third finger involved. I just cant seem to hold it in my fingers because then it has no support. I seen the Shane Warne video where he talks about there being a gap in the grip but it doesen't seem right to me, Could this be reducing the revs i can get on the ball?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;344528 said:
Do you guys tend to pitch too full or too short. Macca showed us how grimmett would have erred towards pitching fuller. I have a tendency to pitch shorter, about 5 yards from the batsman's crease despite the energy i put in run up etc. I think it might be that I get predominantely topspin. The only full delivery being the flipper that is usually nearly a yorker with a bit of swing inwards.
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We're always told by our captain who bowls Chinaman himself to pitch it up fuller, but with Top Spin shorter might work because it rushes on and comes up into the face, although personally I'd go a bit fuller than 5 yards from the crease.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well I'm no expert, but it would make sense that you would get less revs, as the ball would be in contact lower down on the third finger, which would decrease the amount of leverage given by the fingers.

In my experience it is very much correct; I used to have a grip that had no gap(it was a some months ago) and changing it to one that did have a gap really helped.

I did seem to get more revs and the ball came out much better, with no gap it seemed to sort of stick in the hand(kinda of like when my grip was a bit tight only worse). Bowling with a gap does feel a bit weird at first, almost like the ball going to slip out of your hand, but you get used to it; eventually it just feels normal. You overcome the illusion that the ball will slip out of your hand.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes where I practice is concrete so the bounce gets high and misses the stump height. I still have not managed to develop a straight ball consistently as even the topspinners have a small element of sidespin.
 
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