WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

[CowCorner]

WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

Released today via an email to Clubs. There is NO SUCH thing as Barclay or Money Reserve ANYMORE.

It will be:

BS
MS
A Grade
B Grade
C ...... so on so on

Effectively your second team could be playing in D Grade in years to come if they get relegated.

Any thoughts, especially the fact the changed this, and as far as I know there was no vote or even discussion.

Will it be good or bad?

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

........nothing on the DVCA website

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

I have not changed a word.....

When looking at the attached form you will notice a difference in how teams will be graded this season. At our post season review meeting the DVCA Executive discussed, at length, the current grades and their merits and pitfalls. It was unanimously agreed that the current set up of having Barclay Reserve and Money Reserve was serving no useful purpose and was being used as a "dumping ground". There was not incentive to win a grand final because no promotion or relegation applied to these two grades. As a consequence we felt that we did not have the best 44 players at each club playing in the 4 top grades.
To that end the Executive will grade differently for this season replacing the current grades as follows:
Barclay Shield
Money Shield
A Grade
B Grade
C Grade
D Grade
E Grade
F Grade
G Grade
H Grade

There will be promotion/relegation available across all grades and each of the top 8 grades will be limited to 12 teams. G & H Grades may have to be a little flexible to cope with the demand of team entries. The decision to have a consistent number of teams in each grade will help to provide uniformity and assist in fixturing and ground allocation. The extension of the promotion/relegation system will give clubs more incentive to ensure that their best players are playing at their appropriate levels. We also believe that it might contribute to a reduction in forfeits (yet to be proven).
This all fits within the current DVCA Rule S5 but requires a small change in the wording.

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

and I am in no way saying I do not agree, there could be merit, I would have thought that this was a major change and would have to be send to Clubs to vote?

 

[THE ICEMAN]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

and I am in no way saying I do not agree, there could be merit, I would have thought that this was a major change and would have to be send to Clubs to vote?

JOKE ruined a good thing. The DVCA is slowly but sure turning to shite and who no matter what grade they are playing dont play for flags. This is a major change and should have at the very least been put to a vote.

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

JOKE ruined a good thing. The DVCA is slowly but sure turning to shite and who no matter what grade they are playing dont play for flags. This is a major change and should have at the very least been put to a vote.

Dunno if I was joking.....trying to be impartial.....

But what I see as serious is there is NO clear defined policy.

Oh and as I have earlier said I would have liked to have this up as a RCP for the CLUBS to vote on.

 

[sam_j_adams]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

I have not changed a word.....

=================
Quote:
When looking at the attached form you will notice a difference in how teams will be graded this season. At our post season review meeting the DVCA Executive discussed, at length, the current grades and their merits and pitfalls. It was unanimously agreed that the current set up of having Barclay Reserve and Money Reserve was serving no useful purpose and was being used as a "dumping ground". There was not incentive to win a grand final because no promotion or relegation applied to these two grades. As a consequence we felt that we did not have the best 44 players at each club playing in the 4 top grades.
To that end the Executive will grade differently for this season replacing the current grades as follows:
Barclay Shield
Money Shield
A Grade
B Grade
C Grade
D Grade
E Grade
F Grade
G Grade
H Grade

There will be promotion/relegation available across all grades and each of the top 8 grades will be limited to 12 teams. G & H Grades may have to be a little flexible to cope with the demand of team entries. The decision to have a consistent number of teams in each grade will help to provide uniformity and assist in fixturing and ground allocation. The extension of the promotion/relegation system will give clubs more incentive to ensure that their best players are playing at their appropriate levels. We also believe that it might contribute to a reduction in forfeits (yet to be proven).
This all fits within the current DVCA Rule S5 but requires a small change in the wording.
=======
Totally agree that this should have been submitted for club approval before becoming law.
But more disturbing is the fact that the letter states that "each of the top 8 grades will be limited to 12 teams". This appears to include Barclay and Money Shield ? So, how does it effect the teams that finished 13th (Mill Park) and 14th (Whittlesea) last season? Are they relegated, without any recourse, to A Grade ? Or will they find themselves at the mercy of the Executive and put in an even lower grade.
Usually when changes like this are to come into effect there is usually a 'change over' season so that clubs/teams know where they stand going into a season.
This is really change by stealth ! Ray Money would be turning in his grave !

 

[The Wizz]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

=================
Quote:
When looking at the attached form you will notice a difference in how teams will be graded this season. At our post season review meeting the DVCA Executive discussed, at length, the current grades and their merits and pitfalls. It was unanimously agreed that the current set up of having Barclay Reserve and Money Reserve was serving no useful purpose and was being used as a "dumping ground". There was not incentive to win a grand final because no promotion or relegation applied to these two grades. As a consequence we felt that we did not have the best 44 players at each club playing in the 4 top grades.
To that end the Executive will grade differently for this season replacing the current grades as follows:
Barclay Shield
Money Shield
A Grade
B Grade
C Grade
D Grade
E Grade
F Grade
G Grade
H Grade

There will be promotion/relegation available across all grades and each of the top 8 grades will be limited to 12 teams. G & H Grades may have to be a little flexible to cope with the demand of team entries. The decision to have a consistent number of teams in each grade will help to provide uniformity and assist in fixturing and ground allocation. The extension of the promotion/relegation system will give clubs more incentive to ensure that their best players are playing at their appropriate levels. We also believe that it might contribute to a reduction in forfeits (yet to be proven).
This all fits within the current DVCA Rule S5 but requires a small change in the wording.
=======
Totally agree that this should have been submitted for club approval before becoming law.
But more disturbing is the fact that the letter states that "each of the top 8 grades will be limited to 12 teams". This appears to include Barclay and Money Shield ? So, how does it effect the teams that finished 13th (Mill Park) and 14th (Whittlesea) last season? Are they relegated, without any recourse, to A Grade ? Or will they find themselves at the mercy of the Executive and put in an even lower grade.
Usually when changes like this are to come into effect there is usually a 'change over' season so that clubs/teams know where they stand going into a season.
This is really change by stealth ! Ray Money would be turning in his grave !

With College gone it leaves 1 team to many. That is a good point if they want 12 per grade what happens to number 13? I do agree Mill Park and Whittlesea have been holding up the ladder the past few seasons.
I cant see mill Park or Whittlesea being very happy playing C grade. If they go into A grade which 1 of the Barclay teams drop down? I think the way the 2 top grade were run worked! IMO.
I still think having 3 grades with 8 sides per grade would have been alot stronger. It will be good to see what happens in the coming weeks.

 

[TGAT]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

I don't have a problem with the concept, in fact, I think it's quite a good idea in principle. However, I do have a few issues:
1. Why call, what is effectively the first reserve side, "A" Grade? In my eyes, "A" Grade is "A" Grade! "A" Grade at any club should be the Premier side that everyone aspires to play for. With this new system "A" Grade is actually "B" Grade. They should rename the grades:
Barclay Shield
Money Shield
B Grade
C Grade
etc
2. A "Relegation" and "Promotion" system only works when there is genuine promotion and relegation at all levels. This all fine and well, but that leads to another problem......
3. If there is promotion and relegation between all grades, does that mean, in the future, that you could have two sides from the same club in the same grade? In fact, if you have promotion and relegation in all grades, after a number of seasons, you could conceivably have 4 sides from the same club in the same grade! The only way around this is to prevent sides being promoted if they already have a side in the grade above. If this is the case, then it goes against the DVCA's statement that they want sides to have an incentive to win Premierships.
4. Having played in a competition in the past where clubs have mulitple sides in the same grade, I can say from experience, that this is not a desirable situation. It is not fun to play against your mates, and it causes rifts within the club.
In conclusion, I think there are some points that have merit, but there is not enough information here that covers my concerns

 

[Ex-Prez]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

I don't have a problem with the concept, in fact, I think it's quite a good idea in principle. However, I do have a few issues:
1. Why call, what is effectively the first reserve side, "A" Grade? In my eyes, "A" Grade is "A" Grade! "A" Grade at any club should be the Premier side that everyone aspires to play for. With this new system "A" Grade is actually "B" Grade. They should rename the grades:
Barclay Shield
Money Shield
B Grade
C Grade
etc
2. A "Relegation" and "Promotion" system only works when there is genuine promotion and relegation at all levels. This all fine and well, but that leads to another problem......
3. If there is promotion and relegation between all grades, does that mean, in the future, that you could have two sides from the same club in the same grade? In fact, if you have promotion and relegation in all grades, after a number of seasons, you could conceivably have 4 sides from the same club in the same grade! The only way around this is to prevent sides being promoted if they already have a side in the grade above. If this is the case, then it goes against the DVCA's statement that they want sides to have an incentive to win Premierships.
4. Having played in a competition in the past where clubs have mulitple sides in the same grade, I can say from experience, that this is not a desirable situation. It is not fun to play against your mates, and it causes rifts within the club.
In conclusion, I think there are some points that have merit, but there is not enough information here that covers my concerns

DVCA rules state maximum one team per grade in top grades. (top 8 I think)
Also states somewhere that they have the power to structure the comp as they see fit. Doesnt mean I agree it shouldn't have gone to a vote, but they have the right under the current rules.
Looks to me they are following the Jika structure in a way.
Following a comp we have sh!t canned for the last decade or more... yet they refuse to follow the same comp in regards to junior gradings - re under 17 etc...

I can only assume in these cases, either no promo-relation if premier team has a team in grade above or the runners up go up.

Has the Research/College merger been made official yet? Have heard both clubs voted for but nothing since officially from DVCA anyway.
Has Whittlesea volunteered to go down to A/B grade or will this be enforced by the executive?

Best news from the changes is that all grades return to 12 sides again. Fixture was a shambles last year...some teams played 9 games whilst other played 13.

 

[Thumbs up]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

I can only assume in these cases, either no promo-relation if premier team has a team in grade above or the runners up go up.

Would have to be runners up go up to maintain 12 sides per grade

 

[sam_j_adams]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

DVCA rules state maximum one team per grade in top grades. (top 8 I think)
Also states somewhere that they have the power to structure the comp as they see fit. Doesnt mean I agree it shouldn't have gone to a vote, but they have the right under the current rules.
Looks to me they are following the Jika structure in a way.
Following a comp we have sh!t canned for the last decade or more... yet they refuse to follow the same comp in regards to junior gradings - re under 17 etc...

I can only assume in these cases, either no promo-relation if premier team has a team in grade above or the runners up go up.

Has the Research/College merger been made official yet? Have heard both clubs voted for but nothing since officially from DVCA anyway.
Has Whittlesea volunteered to go down to A/B grade or will this be enforced by the executive?

Best news from the changes is that all grades return to 12 sides again. Fixture was a shambles last year...some teams played 9 games whilst other played 13.

It would appear that there are more questions than answers with this change. It would have been much better if the administration had laid all their cards on the table with regards to the changes. Their silence must indicate that they really haven't thought these changes thru with all scenarios.
On the point of promotion/relegation, I would like to suggest that it be two up and two down. That way it gives greater change to each grade for the new season. And yes, if one or both of the promoted already has a team in the higher grade then it is one or none promoted. And in some seasons a club might be lucky in not having their team relegated, but in the end, the cream WILL rise to the top. The amateur football league has a two-up/two-down system and their grand finals are certainly not devalued because both teams know that they are being promoted.

 

[Ex-Prez]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

It would appear that there are more questions than answers with this change. It would have been much better if the administration had laid all their cards on the table with regards to the changes. Their silence must indicate that they really haven't thought these changes thru with all scenarios.
On the point of promotion/relegation, I would like to suggest that it be two up and two down. That way it gives greater change to each grade for the new season. And yes, if one or both of the promoted already has a team in the higher grade then it is one or none promoted. And in some seasons a club might be lucky in not having their team relegated, but in the end, the cream WILL rise to the top. The amateur football league has a two-up/two-down system and their grand finals are certainly not devalued because both teams know that they are being promoted.

The Jika(northern) used to have this - not sure if still in place.
Don't like the idea as it puts all the pressure onto the Semi rather than the GF. Also, semis can be decided by the weather, which is a little unfair when you miss promotion due to this (although rare).
Premiers only go up for me.

 

[NEWCC (L)]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

DVCA rules state maximum one team per grade in top grades. (top 8 I think)
Also states somewhere that they have the power to structure the comp as they see fit. Doesnt mean I agree it shouldn't have gone to a vote, but they have the right under the current rules.
Looks to me they are following the Jika structure in a way.
Following a comp we have sh!t canned for the last decade or more... yet they refuse to follow the same comp in regards to junior gradings - re under 17 etc...

I can only assume in these cases, either no promo-relation if premier team has a team in grade above or the runners up go up.

Has the Research/College merger been made official yet? Have heard both clubs voted for but nothing since officially from DVCA anyway.
Has Whittlesea volunteered to go down to A/B grade or will this be enforced by the executive?

Best news from the changes is that all grades return to 12 sides again. Fixture was a shambles last year...some teams played 9 games whilst other played 13.

This concept is hard to get my around. But I can see the rationale of the DVCA in doing this, obviously one that is aimed at evening out the entire competition and not having teams like Whittlesea etc just making up numbers because they can't relegated.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but BR will now be A Grade, and MR to become B Grade?
So if a side's MR wins the flag next season, they will go up into A Grade and play Barclay Reserve sides from last season correct?

Very strange concept, especially introduced so abruptly, but it could work...and as someone stated before I don't think Whittlesea/Mill Park will like to play against a club's 2nds!

 

[NEWCC (L)]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

This concept is hard to get my around. But I can see the rationale of the DVCA in doing this, obviously one that is aimed at evening out the entire competition and not having teams like Whittlesea etc just making up numbers because they can't relegated.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but BR will now be A Grade, and MR to become B Grade?
So if a side's MR wins the flag next season, they will go up into A Grade and play Barclay Reserve sides from last season correct?

Very strange concept, especially introduced so abruptly, but it could work...and as someone stated before I don't think Whittlesea/Mill Park will like to play against a club's 2nds!

In saying this it will be good to tell outsiders that you play "A" Grade, when really its the magoos...lol

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

What if you have a BS team and a A Grade, side. Your A Grade win the GF, by their reasoning you will have a BS AND MS side. Now lets talk the silly (but possible) what of then your MS side won the GF.....by the promotion and relegation reasoning you will have a BS and BS side. Now they can say they won't let that happening but by doing it this way, they sorta have to do it otherwise the purpose of it is useless.

The same can be said for relegation, if you have some shockers......do you get relegated into a comp with a side that did ok and came mid-field, or do they get demoted as well when they probably got promoted the year before for winning the GF......

Conundrum. Again I really am open for it but am amazed that they have made the decision without the Clubs, smacks of a bit of arrogance to me. And saying that they are their to run the comp is stupid, they are their to administer the comp with and on behalf of Clubs.

 

[five80]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

Hang on. What if you end up having a BS and a MS team. Then what if the BS team gets relegated and the MS team wins the GF. Or even worse, what if the MS team loses the GF, do they get relegated to A grade because the BS is coming down to MS? Does any of this make sense? They're going to need a legal team to sort out the wording for these rules.

 

[Ex-Prez]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

Hang on. What if you end up having a BS and a MS team. Then what if the BS team gets relegated and the MS team wins the GF. Or even worse, what if the MS team loses the GF, do they get relegated to A grade because the BS is coming down to MS? Does any of this make sense? They're going to need a legal team to sort out the wording for these rules.

Yes that would seem would be the case - providing the MS premier has a vacancy (ie no team in BS) then yes that would occur.
I think it would be unlikely that a team that is the worst in BS, would be best (or 2nd) in MS.

Realistically the stronger clubs will prevail under this system. Clubs that have 4,5 or 6+ teams will be ok.
The smaller clubs - eg Whittlesea, Panton Hill, Bundoora United etc.. who only have say 3 teams and not the player talent depth, could realistically find their 1's say in MS, but their 2's in maybe C or D grade within a year or 2 if not competitive.
This creates all sorts of selection issues as you will have maybe 3-4 grades between your 1's & 2's if not careful.
Then - no matter how well you recruit or how successful you are in the lower grades - it can take 3-4 seasons to even up the grades again.

 

[CowCorner]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

Yes that would seem would be the case - providing the MS premier has a vacancy (ie no team in BS) then yes that would occur.
I think it would be unlikely that a team that is the worst in BS, would be best (or 2nd) in MS.

Agreed.

Realistically the stronger clubs will prevail under this system. Clubs that have 4,5 or 6+ teams will be ok.
The smaller clubs - eg Whittlesea, Panton Hill, Bundoora United etc.. who only have say 3 teams and not the player talent depth, could realistically find their 1's say in MS, but their 2's in maybe C or D grade within a year or 2 if not competitive.
This creates all sorts of selection issues as you will have maybe 3-4 grades between your 1's & 2's if not careful.
Then - no matter how well you recruit or how successful you are in the lower grades - it can take 3-4 seasons to even up the grades again.

Also agree, so what is the end result? A competition of 'bigger, stronger' clubs which is what could potentially happen. Possibly resulting in more Wattle Glens who fold and are not heard of again, is that really what we want.

For me the answer to that is no, one thing I like about the DVCA is the amount of Clubs we have, travelling around and having a game and a beer with new blokes.

 

[HollywoodHills]

Re: WTF? DVCA change the rules, who knew!!!

The best rule change the DVCA has introduced in living memory. Having played a fair bit of seconds and thirds cricket I have to say the grading of the reserve and lower grades has been pretty ordinary. Last season a number of teams (probably 3-4) in BR should have been playing MR, and visa-versa. The standard in C grade last year was also pretty ordinary, the top 4 sides would have been able to match it with the mid-table MR teams, and the bottom 4 sides were of about an F-grade or lower standard. Personally I'd like to see;

• BS or MS to be made-up of every club's 1st XI. I don't want to see 2nd XI's in these two grades, or 1st XI's in the reserve grades unless there is a good reason.
• BS and MS to have 1-up 1-down relegation, but the lower grades to have 2-up 2-down. The lower grades are a lot more variable than the shield grades, and really would benefit from this.
• A club's 2XI to be no more than 3 grades below the 1XI. So the lowest grade for a 2XI of a BS club would be B-grade, and the lowest for a MS club would be C-grade. 2XI's really need to be playing 80-over cricket and I'd imagine that this will still only extend done to C-grade.
• I'm not sure on the naming conventions. Personally I see BS as A-grade and MS as B-grade. Perhaps the lower/reserve grades should start at C instead of A.
• A one-day comp on Sunday with two grades. Every other comp has one, so why don't we?