Australian talent

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Re: Australian talent

courtjester;373581 said:
White is an interesting talent. He has been around for what seems like a long time, but he is still only 25 or 26 I think.

I know there is a lot of love for Ferguson around, but in my mind White is ahead of him as a batsman. White performed strongly in the Shield last year, something clicked in his batting. He matured as a player. And he's been captaining the Vics for a few years now. Another string to his bow is that he is an elite slips fieldsman and a very good fielder all over the ground.

I'd like to see White given the next opportunity in the test side, picked as a middle order batsman. And dont be surprised if he captains the Australian test team at some stage as well.
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As long as he really keeps his cool with his batting and ensures he is scoring runs in matches that matter. I found a lot in Sheffield Shield he was scoring his centuries in matches against weaker sides or when Hodge or someone has already scored 150 odd and they are well in the lead. May be just the games I have seen, only check up on that little state down there every so often.

I do think he still needs to bowl. Marcus North wouldn't be in the Test side if it weren't for his bowling, as irrelevant as it is. His spot is the only one I can see being relinquished.
 
Re: Australian talent

Let's just say Hussey is safe for now. He just scored a century in his last test and is averaging over 65 in these ODIs. I would like to think he has his mojo back. He would still have this series anyway before getting dropped, otherwise they would have to start the series without him.

North is the newest batsman, and although bloody good IMO, if it's anyone it has to be him. Which means White doesn't have a spot.
 
Re: Australian talent

Couldn't possibly drop North after his Ashes series. The only droppable player from that series was Hussey. If Huss was indeed dropped, North could move up to four and White could slot in at six.
 
Re: Australian talent

Hussey had a reasonable tour, but not a series. His century brought his average up, but if you included tour matches his average was 55 to my memory. Tour matches don't count though, and I'm hoping he gets his way back in this next series against a slightly lesser team.

I don't want another Bevan like drop really, I consider him the closest batsman to Bevan since his time, and he is performing in ODIs as Bevan did, but I do want him to succeed where Bevan didn't.
 
Re: Australian talent

Just goin back to the talent thing....
Anyone seen much of Tom Cooper from South Australia?
I've seen him in a couple of games and he seems to have a good array of shots and looks like one who could be seen in the baggy green in years to come?
 
Re: Australian talent

He is definitely a finely tuned cog in the South Australian batting juggernaut. :rolleyes:

He's only young (22), and there's probably about 20 batsmen in front of him at the moment, but in the future who knows? His first test will be cementing a spot in the Sheffield Shield team, in which he's only played 4 matches.

Still a good 5 years at least before being considered, I'd imagine.
 
Re: Australian talent

Boris;373979 said:
Hussey had a reasonable tour, but not a series. His century brought his average up, but if you included tour matches his average was 55 to my memory. Tour matches don't count though, and I'm hoping he gets his way back in this next series against a slightly lesser team.

I don't want another Bevan like drop really, I consider him the closest batsman to Bevan since his time, and he is performing in ODIs as Bevan did, but I do want him to succeed where Bevan didn't.
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Bevan had more obvious flaws in his technique than Hussey. Prolonging Bevan's career at test level wold have been criminal
 
Re: Australian talent

Boris;373053 said:
I have always thought of White as that 'nothing' player as I call them. Not saying he can do nothing, as he has demonstrated, but that is just my name for them.

He is a player that gives his everything and will be involved in anything. Whether it will be a long innings, a few super sixes, an unexpected wicket, a freakish catch or a great run out, White will be involved in one of them almost every game. Saying that though, you cannot have too many in one team due to consistency worries. For me Hopes is already in that position and is now a team member that cannot be dropped, and I would not want to be dropped.

Hopes and White are similar, not in that White is batting inclined and Hopes is the opposite, but the fact that they are players that aren't spectacular. They will both end up with average averages and not really a long standing memory, but they are both vital to the team.

In my mind White doesn't quite have a place.
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I'm confused, Boris. Freakish catches, big sixes and great run outs are, well, spectacular! Seriously, White and Hopes are very different players. Hopes is consisent and workmanlike. White is, as you say, good for this, that or the other.

Whatever, for a nothing player, White sure did a lot of "nothing" last night. I'm sure I've seen him do "nothing" like this before, though he will most likely continue to do nothing in the eyes of some who believe that others who did "something" in times gone by will rise again.
 
Re: Australian talent

Thumbs up;374075 said:
Bevan had more obvious flaws in his technique than Hussey. Prolonging Bevan's career at test level wold have been criminal
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Not arguing Bevan's dropping, just that I like to relate the two, but want Hussey to be even better if at all possible.

Sober Symonds;374088 said:
I'm confused, Boris. Freakish catches, big sixes and great run outs are, well, spectacular! Seriously, White and Hopes are very different players. Hopes is consisent and workmanlike. White is, as you say, good for this, that or the other.

Whatever, for a nothing player, White sure did a lot of "nothing" last night. I'm sure I've seen him do "nothing" like this before, though he will most likely continue to do nothing in the eyes of some who believe that others who did "something" in times gone by will rise again.
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As I said, the 'Nothing Player' is a term I personally use for these players. It DOES NOT mean they do nothing at all. It means that their position in the team isn't set, doesn't have a defined purpose. Hopes can come in to bat anywhere from opening to no.9, he can bowl first change or barely at all. He takes great catches or drops the easy ones. He makes great run outs or misses them completely. But he doesn't do all the negative things at once. If you set out players to receive points for runs scored, wickets taken, catches taken and run outs made, then scaled them judged on difficulty, Hopes would be right up there in the team. Does a bit of everything, but nothing in particular. And he does that nothing in particular very, very well. That's what he is in the side for.

Now that White has leaned his batting towards his aim he is more of a batsman, but only a year ago he used to be a more classic 'nothing player'. Didn't do everything to perfection consistently, but did something to perfection every game, whatever it was. Nothing players don't have to be the same, act the same, play the same, but do a bit of everything and do their bit well.

It is my terminology, if you don't like it then don't use it. I class them similar, with White slowly moving towards a pure batsman. Whether or not he is good enough for that still remains up for debate.

Not saying anything negative about either of them.
 
Re: Australian talent

Going by that definition, surely he is more of an 'everything' player than a 'nothing' player?

I still prefer the term "bits'n'pieces player"
 
Re: Australian talent

I mean 'nothing' as in 'nothing in particular'.

Just my terminology and the cricket slang we use around these parts. Wasn't sure if you used it wherever everyone may be.

Call him whatever you want, but that's what I mean. Gotta have a player like that in any ODI side.
 
Re: Australian talent

Well he did score most runs last series, and he's going alright this one. Very tactfully, you didn't really say anything negative. It's what you didn't say, and how you get around what you're trying to say without actually saying it that speaks loudest. If, as a limited overs batsman, you feel White's worthiness is still up for debate, then debate it we shall.

P.S: Spectacular: having to do with a display or sight which is unusual in a very exciting and impressive way. (kind of like big sixes and freakish catches!)
 
Re: Australian talent

Sober Symonds;374104 said:
Well he did score most runs last series, and he's going alright this one. Very tactfully, you didn't really say anything negative. It's what you didn't say, and how you get around what you're trying to say without actually saying it that speaks loudest. If, as a limited overs batsman, you feel White's worthiness is still up for debate, then debate it we shall.

P.S: Spectacular: having to do with a display or sight which is unusual in a very exciting and impressive way. (kind of like big sixes and freakish catches!)
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Well White has only played a handful of games that he has been any good in. It has only been since England has he started doing something of use. If he is going to continue to be as good, or even get better, then of course he is in the team! But if he is only having a rare spurt of form, or he is trying to steal a spot of someone who is injured, i.e. Clarke or Hopes, then good luck to him, because I am definitely not going to like him taking either of those spots if he is not going to bowl. He is a decent bowler, and his not wanting to bowl annoys me. Wouldn't mind him instead of Clarke, but we all know that's not going to happen.

No way is he touching Hopes's spot. Hopes has already proved time and time again he is Mr Fix It and, to put it simply, no.


And about the spectacular... I didn't notice what you were talking about until just now. Maybe I used the word in the wrong place, but what I meant is that these 'nothing' or 'everything' or 'bits'n'pieces' players usually don't have spectacular batting or bowling averages. They don't have a huge amount of runs or huge amount of wickets. In 20 years Hopes is probably going to be a forgotten cause because his stats aren't good, its just that nobody notices that he has been an essential part of the team. Their averages lie.
If someone, in 20 years time, did an 'All time Australian ODI' Draft like what happens with Tests on this site, most likely nobody will even consider Hopes.
 
Re: Australian talent

Your not doing hussey any favours with the comparison, especially as you seem incapable of not tenuously connecting odis to tests.

White is not trying to steal anyone’s spot, fact... I know this to be the complete, unabridged, gods honest, infallible, intractable, irrefutable, undeniable, incontrovertible truth for one reason... a position in an international team DOES NOT BELONG TO ANYONE!

Get injured at your peril.. but that's not fair is it... too bad that is life!
 
Re: Australian talent

WOW, amazing, so you mean Cameron White hasnt really done much when he was batting at no7 and no8 but now he is batting reguarly in the top 4-5 he is doing well? What an amazing coincidence...
 
Re: Australian talent

Thumbs up;374130 said:
Your not doing hussey any favours with the comparison, especially as you seem incapable of not tenuously connecting odis to tests.

White is not trying to steal anyone’s spot, fact... I know this to be the complete, unabridged, gods honest, infallible, intractable, irrefutable, undeniable, incontrovertible truth for one reason... a position in an international team DOES NOT BELONG TO ANYONE!

Get injured at your peril.. but that's not fair is it... too bad that is life!
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Yep, getting injured is a fact of life and it cannot be helped.

But why did the selectors persist with Watson? Because he is a bloody good player that always has showed potential. They stuck with him for the benefit of the TEAM. You are talking on a singular basis. Yep, Hopes getting injured and White coming in and making the most of it is great.... for White. Losing Hopes is a big blow to the team and has the record and experience that will outlast anything that White throws at it for a while. But if people get suckered in and follow things at random because of media interpretation and short memories then the team would be changing every week. Everyone remembers players by the last game they played, not the last series they played, except if they are looking through records trying to prove he is a crap player.

Selecting White in replace of Hopes is great, but when Hopes comes back he has to have his (or as you say, the) spot back but he will be under immense pressure. He has to perform. What do you think Jaques said when he filled Langer's position, scored 99, then got dropped two games later when Langer came back. What do you think MacGill said when he was dropped after a YEAR for Warne. What about Hodge after scoring a double century? These are all examples of it in the Test arena, and of great players, but the essence is the same. Things are done for the benefit of the team, not because someone looks 'hopeful' or is 'young'. Sometimes hopeful and young is the benefit, but when comparing Hopes and White, it doesn't matter IMO.

This only applies if White is vouching to take the place that Hopes is in.

eddiesmith;374147 said:
WOW, amazing, so you mean Cameron White hasnt really done much when he was batting at no7 and no8 but now he is batting reguarly in the top 4-5 he is doing well? What an amazing coincidence...
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I am also talking in his performance in state cricket, his wanting to become a pure batsman, his growing maturity and the way he is working on his game. If he does this, he gets moved up the order and does better. Therefore he plays better. Also means he is aiming at different spots in the team, instead of looking at the Symonds/Hopes position of the past, he is now looking for the Clarke/Hussey/Ferguson position because of his batting. And they all seem solid picks.

Let me reiterate, I am a fan of White! I'm just trying to think logically for the benefit of the team and forcing out players that make up the team that has won in the past and will in the future, while considering that they will not be around forever, so new players have to come in. White is the next batsman in line, can't kick out players because they are getting 'older' when they are performing.
 
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