Australian talent

[eddiesmith]

Re: Australian talent

Well Ferguson is out for atleast 12 months and Hussey will be retired by the time Ferguson gets back to International level, so no problems there

Also should be able to push Hussey out of the test side quite quickly

Then there is the issue of the Australia T20 Captain and Vice Captain in the other forms who has a dodgy back that will never go away

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

As long as everything runs it's due course, and although the selectors generally don't forget too easily, the public do.

Too many players are forgotten too quickly if they perform badly in a couple of games, or if they cost the ACB money by having bad form during a major event, like Gillespie and Kasper in the '05 Ashes, both came back very strong as soon as they went home, but the money was already lost so young players came through whether they earn't their spot or not.

I want players to earn their spots and prove they are better then someone, not ride on a wave of public support when they unjustfully not let a player possibly better them in after being injured. Normally the selectors don't do this, but there are exceptions.

 

[Thumbs up]

Re: Australian talent

As long as everything runs it's due course, and although the selectors generally don't forget too easily, the public do.

Too many players are forgotten too quickly if they perform badly in a couple of games, or if they cost the ACB money by having bad form during a major event, like Gillespie and Kasper in the '05 Ashes, both came back very strong as soon as they went home, but the money was already lost so young players came through whether they earn't their spot or not.

I want players to earn their spots and prove they are better then someone, not ride on a wave of public support when they unjustfully not let a player possibly better them in after being injured. Normally the selectors don't do this, but there are exceptions.

The problem with this is that while one player is injured another steps up and performs, so in this world of being fair who has to be dropped?

It can at times be unfortunate but the incumbant holds all the cards. It is harder to get back in to the team generally than to hold your spot. Hussey is a strong example of this but there have been exceptions and these are usually but not always made for only the great players.

Sadly the people you no longer seem willing to name, but continue to refer to are on the outer and not in that category of exceptional talent. It will be hard but not impossible for them to return.

Your comments about the money issue are farsical and about as crazy as the staged moon landing theory. Be careful what you say as you are hurting your credability here. I thought it was us Victorians who owned the rights for crazy conspiracy theories

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian talent

Eddie is the king of conspiracy theories, you used to think up some weird and wonderful stories. Every now and then we'd get a bit of restbite when the paper run called but apart from that we had everything, from the Australian selectors trying to sabotage the vics run at glory or Ponting being pissed at Hodge because Hodgie took the last piece of cheescake at lunch at the SCG test in 2006.

 

[a for effort]

Re: Australian talent

restbite

What is this word?

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

The problem with this is that while one player is injured another steps up and performs, so in this world of being fair who has to be dropped?

It can at times be unfortunate but the incumbant holds all the cards. It is harder to get back in to the team generally than to hold your spot. Hussey is a strong example of this but there have been exceptions and these are usually but not always made for only the great players.

Sadly the people you no longer seem willing to name, but continue to refer to are on the outer and not in that category of exceptional talent. It will be hard but not impossible for them to return.

Your comments about the money issue are farsical and about as crazy as the staged moon landing theory. Be careful what you say as you are hurting your credability here. I thought it was us Victorians who owned the rights for crazy conspiracy theories

What I'm saying, is that what is wrong with letting an injured player back in after his rehabilitation, if they were doing well before they were injured?

For example if Hussey got injured now, well he is gone. Fair enough, hasn't got the evidence to back him.

But if there is a team member (that Australia doesn't fully have currently, with the exception of Ponting) that has a good record, let's use Langer as an example, then he gets injured and Jaques replaces him, like he did. Jaques scored 99 and 70 in two matches, then Langer was fit. Langer came back and scored a couple of twenties, a duck and a fifty, he was out of form. But the selectors knew that he would come back and be better then Jaques could have been, and he did, he was a major part in the next series against India if my memory serves me right. That is called faith and playing the selections smart. That is what I am talking about.

Earn your place, don't take it. There is no harm in dropping the fill in player if they were doing well, as harsh as it is, and having them as back up. It's better than having no definite back up. If Ponting was injured a year or two ago, Hodge would take his place. We know he would do well. Its better then having a complete unknown debutant come in at number 3 and trying to make his way in the middle of an important series.

And with the money, I was kinda making that up, but really I can't see it happening otherwise. If a player looses a big series for you, they are losing money. If a player loses money for the ACB then they will most likely not like you. Like Symonds, he lost the ACB money and got booted out of the team while still performing. Conspiracy theory, yes, but there's no harm in speculating. Besides the public probably wouldn't be too happy with that player once that happens.

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Australian talent

There is some exceptions though, like when a player who was rubbish before getting injured and played in a couple of losing series then misses more than 6 months whilst their replacement wins Australia a series then no, they shouldnt expect to be welcomed back with open arms and dump the better, younger player

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

There is some exceptions though, like when a player who was rubbish before getting injured and played in a couple of losing series then misses more than 6 months whilst their replacement wins Australia a series then no, they shouldnt expect to be welcomed back with open arms and dump the better, younger player

Well I'm not going to get hooked on this argument again because I know that only four games before all that this theoretical player was playing that when he was actually fit, he had just come off being the best Australian bowler in over a year after maturing greatly under the wisdom of one of the theoretical best bowlers ever and has now come back to being that bowler.

But anyway that example you just provided there in theory without my added information makes sense. It's just like my Hussey statement. If he were to get injured now, it's bye bye Hussey. If Siddle gets more injured than he is now then it might be a few months before he comes back, but he will be back.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Australian talent

... Perhaps. Perhaps not. If another aspiring pacemen - for agument's sake let's say Burt Cockley (sorry, I can't help myself!) - comes in and impresses enough whilst Siddle went through the motions at Shield level, then Siddle would likely have to bide his time. Bad luck for him. Luck & timing play a big part in selection & reputation ... we've argued this type of thing ad nauseum here.

With the player you & Eddie are speaking about who shall not be named, by the time you go back to when he was a fantastic player, or analyse the periods over which he was in form, you're starting to draw on some quite historical information. He may be in the mix, but Boris the poor returns seem to outweigh the good ones in recent memory.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

Luck and timing do have huge parts to do with selection, for sure. Martin Love should have been playing for Australia since he was four years old, but timing just ruled that out. There are so many cases of bad timing, but they aren't due to selectors with long term memory loss, which there are few. I think the best way to look at a team that has been selected is look back in the history of each player... because even if you hate the team the selectors have to look at the history of a player and if you do that you will see why they are selected.

That is why this theoretical player is not getting back in the side easily, because his history outweighs the present. He was put in the team to not worry about his average, but just scare people. He wouldn't have been in the side if it weren't for the theoretical unnamed legends around him. But when those legends started to cool off and slow down until their retirement, he rose up as a different bowler completely. The selectors are treating him like he is a bowler who has played only a few Tests, the same as another theoretical player whose name sounds just like Siddle. He is a completely different bowler now, and as a result doesn't have a history to fall back on. He can't show the selectors anything in the past, because he didn't spearhead it then. What has to be done is look at the that two or three seasons and decide from there.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian talent

Well I'm not going to get hooked on this argument again because I know that only four games before all that this theoretical player was playing that when he was actually fit, he had just come off being the best Australian bowler in over a year after maturing greatly under the wisdom of one of the theoretical best bowlers ever and has now come back to being that bowler.

But anyway that example you just provided there in theory without my added information makes sense. It's just like my Hussey statement. If he were to get injured now, it's bye bye Hussey. If Siddle gets more injured than he is now then it might be a few months before he comes back, but he will be back.

Yes but that has more to do with age then skill.

Hussey is going to play until, at the latest, the 2011 WC then he'll retire if he is still playing by then.

If he were to get injured now then yes, if the injury was mid to long term, then his career would probably be over.

But at the moment there is no-one at Shield level that is crying out to replace him in the middle order. Brad Hodge is one candidate, but his just as old as Hussey. Watson might be able to go to the middle order, but his yet to have that truly breakthrough innings with the bat in the test arena.

He often gets to 50 or 60 but that isn't good enough.

Hussey in form is the perfect middle order batsmen, the selectors are going to, and rightly so, give him every chance to show them his still got it.

Especially because if he does still have it, then his one of the best batsmen in the world.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

Yes but that has more to do with age then skill.

Hussey is going to play until, at the latest, the 2011 WC then he'll retire if he is still playing by then.

If he were to get injured now then yes, if the injury was mid to long term, then his career would probably be over.

But at the moment there is no-one at Shield level that is crying out to replace him in the middle order. Brad Hodge is one candidate, but his just as old as Hussey. Watson might be able to go to the middle order, but his yet to have that truly breakthrough innings with the bat in the test arena.

He often gets to 50 or 60 but that isn't good enough.

Hussey in form is the perfect middle order batsmen, the selectors are going to, and rightly so, give him every chance to show them his still got it.

Especially because if he does still have it, then his one of the best batsmen in the world.

I agree with you about the Hussey thing, but not 100% with the age.

I really don't understand a lot of the age argument. If a guy is 35 but the best batsman Shield cricket has seen for a long time and there is an opening, select him. Even if he only plays two seasons, that is two seasons of him averaging 60 odd and winning you games.

Yes select young players to play 100+ games for the future, but don't go overboard. You don't need 11 players under 30. You only need around 4 if the rest of your team is settled. Age shouldn't be a barrier to selection unless there are two of the same player fighting for the one spot.

Just take the McGain argument. Say he came out and got a five for on his debut. Say he is the greatest legspinner since Warne (not hard). Yes he's 38, but that is still two years he can play for. That is still 120 wickets if he is good enough, 60 at the very least. By the end of that two years, who knows, another great spinner may have made his way domestically. Obviously Hauritz has done more than enough and I wouldn't have McGain in the team, but just looking for a relevant example.

There is no need to fill a team with young players for the future, because in the future they will all get old at the same time. Then you will have 8 players over 33 in your team. Stagger the ages. If Hussey died tomorrow (harsh I know) then replace him with Hodge. Don't go sending in someone who just might be the future, because there are already 6 others in or around the team doing just that.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian talent

Look i'd like to think that if a crucial spot opened up in the middle order from now until the ashes, whether thats through loss of form, injury or whatever then Brad Hodge would fill that vacancy. I am almost certain of that.

But thats the most the likes of Hussey, Hodge and co will have until their cards are stamped.

If a place opens up in the middle order, then Hodge is in.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian talent

Look i'd like to think that if a crucial spot opened up in the middle order from now until the ashes, whether thats through loss of form, injury or whatever then Brad Hodge would fill that vacancy. I am almost certain of that.

But thats the most the likes of Hussey, Hodge and co will have until their cards are stamped.

If a place opens up in the middle order, then Hodge is in.

I agree. Some say put in someone young and hopeful to grow into a good player, but when you look at the side there are already 3 young players in the top 6. Say if Hussey was to go, replace him with someone just as experienced, and you don't get much more experienced with only playing a couple of games than a double century scoring Hodge.