All old post but that is my experience of the backspinner completely. Ive been practicing it a bit lately as a way of combatting good back foot players.
Back-Spinning Deliveries
- Thread starter someblokecalleddave
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All old post but that is my experience of the backspinner completely. Ive been practicing it a bit lately as a way of combatting good back foot players.
That video definitely cleared it up for me. Whenever I have seen Warne bowl a slider it has been a nothing ball rather than an orthodox back spinner. Some people have claimed that it comes out between the second and third finger but this isnt accurate, it is basically just pushed out of the palm of the hand. I cant remember Warne ever getting a wicket with an orthodox back spinner. Jenner could obviously bowl it but I dont know that Warne could.
The Australian spinner Bob Holland bowled the same delivery through his career, but he called it a flipper.
So the orthodox back spinner is the karate chop ball as demonstrated by Jenner, and the slider is the nothing ball as bowled by Warne. And the scrambled seam skiddy leg break is just that?
The Australian spinner Bob Holland bowled the same delivery through his career, but he called it a flipper.
So the orthodox back spinner is the karate chop ball as demonstrated by Jenner, and the slider is the nothing ball as bowled by Warne. And the scrambled seam skiddy leg break is just that?
macca
Active Member
Old dutchy Holland was playing in an over 60,s carnival here a few weeks back. I couldn't get to the game but someone i know , knows him well so i had a few questions to ask him and see if he could give my son some tips. He is a top bloke, I know that.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
If you can get your hands on the ECB spinning DVD (Generally only available to accredited coaches) Jenner demo's the 5 deliveries at the end of the section and bowls a beautiful Orthodox Back-Spinner but even in this video when he talks about the back-spinners he talks with derision of the notion that there is such a thing as slider or zooter. As far as Jenner is concerned there's a Flipper and then there's the back spinner 'Call it what you may slider/zooter'. Then he bowls it with real finesse and ease, it's a good bit of footage of an exceptionally difficult delivery. Like you I don't think Warne had the OBS sussed properly and he bowled a range of differing pseudo back-spinners as described by many different people (Coaches etc).
I havent seen that video but I watched the BBC one of Jenner bowling a back spinner at the end of this video which I think someone posted above:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/skills/7362779.stm
Bloody hard ball, harder than the flipper for sure. I always end up with a backspinning leg break whenever I attempt one. Other than Peter Philpott and Terry Jenner (and maybe Benaud) I dont know anyone who bowled one.
I do have a nothing ball like Warne's which I do my best to disguise as a leg break. Baseballers have a ball called an "Eephus pitch" which is a nothing pitch, it is just a moderately slow lob down the centre of the plate. It is meant to deceive through its very ordinariness. So I used to call my "slider" an Eephus ball.
Credit to Warne, he does do a good job of disguising the ball in that video.
Good to see someone knows Bob Holland, he was always a crowd favourite down in Sydney. I remember that if he was bowling well he could often get a bagful, he could really run through a side. I remember though he distinctly said in an interview that he could land the flipper bowling from one side of his loungeroom to the other but not over 22 yards. So he would push the ball out the front of his hand and called it a flipper. He said that this was the same as what Warne called a "zooter".
sadspinner
Member
Don't let Macca loose on that one! He might sort you out on that with a whole thread
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the ECB video is almost 'Top secret', I think if you're a coach and you order it, when it arrives it does so in a security van and 2 ECB officials in black suits and shades make you sign a non declaration contract in your own blood, swearing that you'll never ever copy it and distribute it. The consequences of breaching this contract are un-mentionable! (Saying that though, it does turn up on Ebay on the odd ocassion).
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
I think that "back spinner" that he is bowling in the video was the one that he called the zooter. There are similarities between that ball and the delivery described in this link http://www.2playcricket.com/bowling/zooter.html. I think the slider was just a scrambled seam leg break as Shane Warne demonstrates in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfZgFi9Q9gc&feature=related.
The "slider" that he demonstrates in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfZgFi9Q9gc looks like the genuine OBS. He calls it a slider and claims that it is pushed through but it has got genuine backspin on it like an OBS.
Thats a great video for sure, but the slider that he bowls is not an OBS. He is letting the ball come out of the side of the hand from around the second finger (I suppose there is some truth to the claim that the ball comes out between the second and third finger).
If it was an orthodox back spinner his hand would be in a karate chop position, and his thumb would be facing towards the camera and his palm facing towards point.
If it was an orthodox back spinner his hand would be in a karate chop position, and his thumb would be facing towards the camera and his palm facing towards point.
Spiderlounge
Member
Difficult? Really? I bowl it all the time, find it pretty easy to bowl and it's by far my best variation. As long as you don't send it down the leg side or excessively wide down off, I find it's either a dot ball if it's just outside off and the batsman tries to cut and goes over the top of it or he may play with a straight bat and drag it on if he's not very good, or if it's straight it's either prodded back or a wicket. I don't practise it much as it comes to me pretty naturally, I aim a bit shorter and out it comes. I use a slightly different grip from my leg-break, rotating the ball round just a tiny bit, but I don't understand how it could be described as harder than the flipper. Perhaps I'm underestimating myself...
i think the back spinner either comes naturally or it doesnt. some people find it really hard, i like you find it really easy. it is difficult to get it out with pure backspin though and a clean seam. youll find that most of the ones that go straight on will have a scrambled seam on them, because if you get it out with a clean seam the chances of pure backspin are slim, and even the slightest bit of side spin results in a massive leg break. if the seam scrambles a little then it tends not to turn, but still carries in the air and stays lower off the bounce.
I think there is probably more practicality to a scrambled seam backspinner though, the same as with a scrambled seam flipper. any delivery that hits the seam, regardless of spin angle, will have a tendancy to bounce higher (its the nature of the hard seam). and the backspinner with an upright seam will grip and lose pace as well as popping up. if you land it on a length then the batsman is going to end up with a delivery that bounces about the same as a leg break, but goes straight. if you scramble the seam then its more like the conventional idea of a flipper, as in it stays very low off the bounce. so low in fact that batsmen who get out to it will be furious that you are celebrating a clean bowled wicket from uneven bounce. as if the pitch was somehow to blame, rather than the bowler having a great variation and using his brain to outsmart them. I had that myself last season in a T20 game, and it was very satisfying
I think there is probably more practicality to a scrambled seam backspinner though, the same as with a scrambled seam flipper. any delivery that hits the seam, regardless of spin angle, will have a tendancy to bounce higher (its the nature of the hard seam). and the backspinner with an upright seam will grip and lose pace as well as popping up. if you land it on a length then the batsman is going to end up with a delivery that bounces about the same as a leg break, but goes straight. if you scramble the seam then its more like the conventional idea of a flipper, as in it stays very low off the bounce. so low in fact that batsmen who get out to it will be furious that you are celebrating a clean bowled wicket from uneven bounce. as if the pitch was somehow to blame, rather than the bowler having a great variation and using his brain to outsmart them. I had that myself last season in a T20 game, and it was very satisfying
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Definitely be looking at yor new videos now - let's get over to youtube!
i think the back spinner either comes naturally or it doesnt. some people find it really hard, i like you find it really easy. it is difficult to get it out with pure backspin though and a clean seam. youll find that most of the ones that go straight on will have a scrambled seam on them, because if you get it out with a clean seam the chances of pure backspin are slim, and even the slightest bit of side spin results in a massive leg break. if the seam scrambles a little then it tends not to turn, but still carries in the air and stays lower off the bounce.
I think there is probably more practicality to a scrambled seam backspinner though, the same as with a scrambled seam flipper. any delivery that hits the seam, regardless of spin angle, will have a tendancy to bounce higher (its the nature of the hard seam). and the backspinner with an upright seam will grip and lose pace as well as popping up. if you land it on a length then the batsman is going to end up with a delivery that bounces about the same as a leg break, but goes straight. if you scramble the seam then its more like the conventional idea of a flipper, as in it stays very low off the bounce. so low in fact that batsmen who get out to it will be furious that you are celebrating a clean bowled wicket from uneven bounce. as if the pitch was somehow to blame, rather than the bowler having a great variation and using his brain to outsmart them. I had that myself last season in a T20 game, and it was very satisfying
Thats pretty much what I have found jim. When it hits the seam it bounces up just the same as a leg break and sought of defeats the purpose of the delivery. Scrambled seam is good and so is a tilted seam so it lands just off the seam.
I try and bowl it a little bit faster too just to give them a little less time to react to the low bounce.
Ha Ha, you can't expect a batsman to think you got him out with a legitimate delivery, it had to be a bad bounce. To be fair how many batsman would even know about back spinning deliveries at the level we play at.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
None of them.
Since my last post I have tried bowling the backspinner a bit. Actually I do find it easier than when I last attempted it, although it still sometimes comes out as a backspinning leg break.
A couple of pointers that I find work for me: a higher action is best, the higher the better. Its almost impossible to bowl this ball with too much of a round-arm delivery.
Also, try to visualise the "karate chop" motion of the delivery when bowling this ball, make sure that the edge of your hand is facing down to the ground.
I tried a couple of these to a chap that was batting in the nets last weekend and he didnt really pick them at all. Like the posters above said, its not a well known delivery.
A couple of pointers that I find work for me: a higher action is best, the higher the better. Its almost impossible to bowl this ball with too much of a round-arm delivery.
Also, try to visualise the "karate chop" motion of the delivery when bowling this ball, make sure that the edge of your hand is facing down to the ground.
I tried a couple of these to a chap that was batting in the nets last weekend and he didnt really pick them at all. Like the posters above said, its not a well known delivery.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Wrist Spinning in general is a complete mystery to most cricket players and I'd go as far as to say to most 'Leggies'. My experience of people that call themselves 'Leggies' and 'Leg-Spinners' is that they are Leg Break bowlers and very little else. Having said that, some of them have been exceptionally good Leg Break bowlers because all their energy is focussed on only bowling the leg break and as we all know on here, the Leg Break is the ball you need to be able to bowl with accuracy and verve in order to be a wicket taker. Knowledge of all the variations is useful, but being able to bowl them all isn't necessary unless you want your life to only be about wrist spinning to the detriment of most other things. I think all of them are worth playing with as a long term plan, but always bowling your Leg Break 80-90% of the time and then trying 2 others alongside your Leg Break during each season. Over a period of 4 or 5 years with 2 variations extra per year, you'll get through looking at and trying most of the variations and I reckon each season you'll need a couple of variations on top of your Leg Break. If I regain fitness this season the variations I'll be using in the game will be Leg Break (And its sub-variations) a conventional, but unpredicatble Top-Spinner that comes out as a Wrong Un, which I'm okay with and the out the front of the hand Flipper which is supposed to be an Off-spinning delivery, but generally goes straight on, but has other attributes such as increased speed, drift and a ridiculous stalling as it hits the deck which suggest that despite my efforts to make it spin like an off-spinning flipper it must have a lot of back-spin on it?
I bowl mine like you too I think. I actually keep the wrist itself pretty stiff and do all the work with the fingers as flicking the wrist changes the direction of mine back to a leg break. There is some movement of the wrist involuntarily when the fingers flick but not much.
Are you alright to play the first games of the season?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
No, not really. I can bowl using the walk in technique I developed at the end of last season (The extension of the stand-start), but as for running around the field in the manner I have done for the last four or five years, that's not possible. As a teacher I've got 2 weeks off at the minute and getting out and about with the kids means a lot more activity and walking around and I seem to be feeling a lot better for doing some of that. For instance we've been for a bike ride this morning up and down hills for about 7 Km and I seem to be fine. This arvo we had a game of football as well and I couldn't get about in the way I would normally have done, but this evening sitting here, the knee feels okay, not any worse for all of todays activities. What I'm hoping is that with the increase in activity the thigh muscle is getting stronger and the stability of the knee with it? Liz has given me some stretches to do and I've been doing those. The thing that seems to set me back is walking up stairs (At work) so with the lack of stairs to climb the longer term prospect seems positive, but not enough to play by the end of April. It's a bit of a bummer as last year I had that bloody Plantar Fascitis giving me grief all season and I've cleared that up only to have this knee issue. The worse aspect is that I was so looking forward to be going forward with the new bowling action and having that ready to go and primed for the first game and now it's on the back burner because of the knee.
Ah thats very disappointing with the season just about to start. I find my knee gets sore when I have to work somewhere where there are lots of stairs or when I have to climb a ladder. Other than that its usually fine at low impact stuff or bowling.