Clarrie Grimmett

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Without reading the other two books which I'm saving and having read Ashley Mallets biog, the impression I have at the minute is that he didn't have a backspinner of any type in 1930. The slider isn't mentioned at all. From the descriptions in the Taking Wickets it sounds as though he's discovered the technique for the flippers but hasn't taken them to the full 22yards.
 
you have to turn to page 50 of 'grimmett on cricket' to find mention of his backspinners.

he says that backspin was a rare variation and as a rule he was always looking to topspin or overspin to gain pace.

he describes 2 backspinners on page 50, one is the benaud, warne type flipper. he says it is similar to his mystery ball but upside down. this is more evidence , along with plate 14, that grimmetts main "flipper" was the overspinner. he invented the backspinning flipper, but hardly bowled it. only later on in his life when he saw dooland and benaud succeed with his flipper did he see it's full potential.

the other backspinner he describes thus... "this is done by pulling the top of the ball back with the fingers"....this could be a seamer/backspinner made to look like a legbreak, which he and just about every other legspinner discovers or is taught.

or it could be a rough description of the slider backspinner couldn't it ?
 
I've got it here, I'll have to have a look, I've left the Slider section for the moment because I'm still experimenting with this idea that a slightly angled towards the off-side back-spinner may be a variation if bowled with loads of flight that will turn massively? There's loads of conflicting information out there, so I'm sifting through it and playing around with different balls back-spinning them with different amounts of seam presentation with a view to video-ing them once I get the high speed camera to demo the results. This new update on the blog is going to be epic, it's basically a book!
 
macca said:
you have to turn to page 50 of 'grimmett on cricket' to find mention of his backspinners.

he says that backspin was a rare variation and as a rule he was always looking to topspin or overspin to gain pace.

he describes 2 backspinners on page 50, one is the benaud, warne type flipper. he says it is similar to his mystery ball but upside down. this is more evidence , along with plate 14, that grimmetts main "flipper" was the overspinner. he invented the backspinning flipper, but hardly bowled it. only later on in his life when he saw dooland and benaud succeed with his flipper did he see it's full potential.

the other backspinner he describes thus... "this is done by pulling the top of the ball back with the fingers"....this could be a seamer/backspinner made to look like a legbreak, which he and just about every other legspinner discovers or is taught.

or it could be a rough description of the slider backspinner couldn't it ?
Click to expand...

that sounds like a Slider to me, definitely not a Zooter. Benaud alledgedly had a Zooter, but the descriptions ive read sound more like a Slider, dragging fingers down the back of the ball. i think Philpott may be the first person to claim the Zooter as a delivery (although he called it a Slider i think, just to confuse things), but he may have acquired it from someone else to begin with. Warne is the first person to coin the phrase "Zooter" i think, and thats how everyone should now name it for clarity. calling the true backspinner a Slider implies that it is in the same bracket as the other Sliders, whereas it is a much harder delivery to bowl. literally any leggie can bowl a Slider (scrambled seam leg break, or dragging fingers behind the ball), bowling the Zooter is a lot more skilled.

this is the best video I have of my Zooter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqZu5a69i0&feature=fvw
 
the other backspinner he describes thus... "this is done by pulling the top of the ball back with the fingers"....this could be a seamer/backspinner made to look like a legbreak, which he and just about every other legspinner discovers or is taught.

This is the other Slider - the one I call the Mickey Mouse slider. The Zooter is like an arm ball, it's bowled with little or no spin - pushed out of the front of the hand.
 
Jim2109 said:
that sounds like a Slider to me, definitely not a Zooter. Benaud alledgedly had a Zooter, but the descriptions ive read sound more like a Slider, dragging fingers down the back of the ball. i think Philpott may be the first person to claim the Zooter as a delivery (although he called it a Slider i think, just to confuse things), but he may have acquired it from someone else to begin with. Warne is the first person to coin the phrase "Zooter" i think, and thats how everyone should now name it for clarity. calling the true backspinner a Slider implies that it is in the same bracket as the other Sliders, whereas it is a much harder delivery to bowl. literally any leggie can bowl a Slider (scrambled seam leg break, or dragging fingers behind the ball), bowling the Zooter is a lot more skilled.

this is the best video I have of my Zooter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqZu5a69i0&feature=fvw
Click to expand...

yeah there is a lot of confusion with what is a slider, zooter etc.

you could say there is 'a' slider and there is 'the' slider.

doug ring was the 1st to really master the backspun legbreak. ring showed benaud on a train in England ( he learnt the flipper in England as well on the next tour) with a green apple in '54 how if he turnt his wrist past the biggest legbreak and the back of his hand faced mid wicket and his thumb faced the bowler, backspin was produced. ring called this ball his 'skidder'.

philpott reckons benaud was the master of this backspinner and bowled it a lot , sometimes half his deliveries !

bob simpson showed warne how to bowl this backspinner. this was after warne learnt the flipper and simmo was surprised no-one had shown warne the other backspinner. simpson said that this ball was basically the ball warne later called his zooter.

slider is confusing term now. i notice ian healy in commentary refers to a slider as an arm ball that looks like a legbreak but slides in to the batsman. he reckons it is a good ball to bowl across lefthanders.

i like backspinner as a term to describe the backspun legbreak and flipper for the finger clicked backspinner.

zooter might catch on as a term for the backspun legbreak, but there is still confusion over zooter, because some people say the zooter is a palm ball with no spin.
 
Yeah that sounds about right to me. The 'Other Back-spinner' that Warne didn't know is that the 'Drag the fingers down the back of the ball' cross seam' one?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
The Zooter is like an arm ball, it's bowled with little or no spin - pushed out of the front of the hand.
Click to expand...

not at all!! the Zooter is THE backspinner, it is spun as hard as a leg break (possibly harder in my case) with a perfect seam. if it lands with a little side spin on it by mistake then it becomes a massive turning leg break that stays low.

when im struggling to get my leg break turning the Zooter is my go to ball. i bowl one purposely with some side spin and it almost always rips. when you land it with backspin it is similar to the flipper, except that it doesnt skid through, it grips the pitch a lot more. which results in a sharp up and down bounce whilst still staying low, and it loses a lot of pace off the pitch.
 
you find a lot of legspinners bowled the backspinner. Bob Holland, Terry Jenner, Stu macgill and Jim Higgs all bowled the backspinner but none of those 4 mastered the flipper.

Benaud, according to Philpott, bowled it frequently but so did warne i reckon.

remember bob simpson reckons he showed warne the backspinner. Simpson also said that all warnes "mystery balls" including the zooter were just slight variations of the doug ring right round the loop backspinner that simmo showed warne when he first joined the test team.
 
The slider according to warne is the leg break with a scrambled seam and possibly less revs than the normal leg break. Warne's zooter as Jim said is the backspinner going around the loop futher from the biggest intentional leg break.

Confusion has set in as Jenner in his BBC video calls the backspinner going round the loop as the slider.

As regards that video by you Jim, the one you called a Zooter looked more like a scrambled seam leg break ie a slider, but obviously if you can see the seam when bowling you can say more than me. From the hand it looked like warnes slider from the nicholas video.
 
If Jim's flicking the ball inwards off his third finger, using the wrist action having gone round the loop creating back-spin anyhwere between the 90 degree Leg Break and the perfect straight down the wicket seamed 'Back-spinner' despite the fact that he may want to call it a 'Zooter' it is in fact a proper 'Slider'.

Types of back-spinners

1. The Flipper - no need for an explanation finger and thumb - no argument.
2. The Slider - Using the round the loop approach, flicked inwards towards the body using both the wrist and fingers (Extremely difficult).
3. The Zooter - akin to the Offies arm ball, a straight ball out of the front of the hand with little or no spin on it,
4. The Duffers Slider - not sure if this one has a name, I call it the Mickey Mouse Slider. You hold the ball like a Leg Break, but instead of flicking the wrist in the delivery, you keep the wrist straight and you run the fingers down the back of the ball like a seam bowler would but it's a cross seamed delivery.

How many people vote they're the correct descriptions?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
If Jim's flicking the ball inwards off his third finger, using the wrist action having gone round the loop creating back-spin anyhwere between the 90 degree Leg Break and the perfect straight down the wicket seamed 'Back-spinner' despite the fact that he may want to call it a 'Zooter' it is in fact a proper 'Slider'.

Types of back-spinners

1. The Flipper - no need for an explanation finger and thumb - no argument.
2. The Slider - Using the round the loop approach, flicked inwards towards the body using both the wrist and fingers (Extremely difficult).
3. The Zooter - akin to the Offies arm ball, a straight ball out of the front of the hand with little or no spin on it,
4. The Duffers Slider - not sure if this one has a name, I call it the Mickey Mouse Slider. You hold the ball like a Leg Break, but instead of flicking the wrist in the delivery, you keep the wrist straight and you run the fingers down the back of the ball like a seam bowler would but it's a cross seamed delivery.

How many people vote they're the correct descriptions?
Click to expand...

1. The flipper agreed
2. The round the loop is a ZOOTER not a slider
3. Non spinning leg break with scrambled seam and no great wrist flick= SLIDER
4. I think that is a seamer not a slider or could be called a slower ball by the seamers
 
Grimmett bowled 73,987 balls in 1st class cricket. Warne bolwed 74,830. very close. Grimmett took 1,424 wickets average 22.28. SR 51.9. Econ 2.57 . Warne took 1,319 wickets average 26.11 SR 56.7. Econ 2.76

grimmett took 5 wk 127 times 10 wk 33 times ! Warne took 5 wk 69 times and 10 wk 12 times.

Warnes strike rate in sheffield cricket was 73.6 his average 35.39, high for one of the greatest bowlers ever. Grimmett had a strike rate of 55.4 in shield cricket and his average 25.29

Grimmetts 1st class career spanned 30 summers. He was the first bowler and still the fastest to reach 200 test wickets. On the night of Grimmetts passing, Bradman told a reporter who knocked on his door late that evening that " Clarrie Grimmett was the greatest legspinner the world has seen and we will probably never see his equal again". Most old timers still agree.
 
My favourite quote from Grimmett is this......Attack and keep on attacking. Dont give the batsman any respite. Worry him. Make him play your game...from Grimmett on Cricket Chapter 4.
 
can anyone who has a copy of tricking the batsman please scan it and post the pages on photo bucket or something similar? i realise this might be a slightly laborious task but i'm desperate to have a look at it and the nearest copy to me resides in the British Library in London which i won't be able to get to for some time.
 
I've just been reading Amol Rajans 'The Twirlymen' he seems to be under the impression that Grimmetts mystery ball was the Off-spinning variant rather than the Top-Spinning Flipper Pages 185, 186 and 187. In fact this whole section in the book is somewhat confused as far as I can see and then he goes on to try and claim the Off-spinning Flipper as his own! Unfortunately it's described on youtube almost 2 years before the book!

Is it the case that in Tricking the Batsman he states that the Off-spinning flipper is 'The Mystery Ball'?

http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2011/11/amol-rajan-twirlymen-flippers.html
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I've just been reading Amol Rajans 'The Twirlymen' he seems to be under the impression that Grimmetts mystery ball was the Off-spinning variant rather than the Top-Spinning Flipper Pages 185, 186 and 187. In fact this whole section in the book is somewhat confused as far as I can see and then he goes on to try and claim the Off-spinning Flipper as his own! Unfortunately it's described on youtube almost 2 years before the book!

Is it the case that in Tricking the Batsman he states that the Off-spinning flipper is 'The Mystery Ball'?

http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2011/11/amol-rajan-twirlymen-flippers.html
Click to expand...

I haven't read twirleymen so i am not sure how much he knows but Grimmett did use what was known as his off break flipper.

Grimmett saw hayward in nz. but only from the boundary as a teenaged spectator. He had no idea or clue as to how simson hayward was getting what grimmett described as the most spin he had seen till then.

Grimmett was a genius that discovered finger click spin himself. He even came up with the iverson delivery 20 years before iverson but dropped it for flippers.

His former captain and teammate vic richardson wrote how grimmett was working on his "flipper offbreak" in 1938. He first used it in a brisbane shield game 1938. I found an old newspaper article where grimmett tells everyone he will debut the ball in that match sa v qld.

The truth is grimmett had several mystery balls, all of them flippers.

It was the topspinner he shows in the 1948 photo and description "my mystery ball" he describes how to bowl it as an overspinner. He wrote this was his most successful "dodge" as he called his mystery balls.

He did bowl an offspinning flipper. As did Cec Pepper, and it was just one of grimmetts mystery balls.

The backspinner he debuted in jan 1941 at scg and caused a sensation. But he didn't see its full potential until benaud picked it up off another grimmett student, dooland in the late 50,s.
 
It's worth a read Macca, loads of interesting stuff in there. I get very little time to read these books, I've still yet to read Tricking the Batsman and Grimmett on Cricket, so I might be missing out on some of the info. I need to re-read Malletts book as well. I've got Jury service at the minute and there's going to be a lot of sitting around it seems waiting hence I got time today to read a few chapter of the Twirlymen. Tricking the Batsmen next I reckon.
 
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