Leg Spin Horror - Some Disasters And How (maybe) To Avoid Them (i)

[Cleanprophet]

The feeling I get especially when I first start to bowl is a feeling that the ball is not fizzing out but sliding out.

I naturally bowl with an open hand/wrist with the ball sliding out. You may have a similar problem. I concentrate on keeping the wrist cocked and getting over the ball. For me, it feels like I am getting into a position to bowl a top spinner, but the ball comes out as a good leg spinner. It might be an idea for you to focus on getting over the ball and putting lots of over spin on the ball.

 

[Cleanprophet]

It's when you have a degree of control over your deliveries, that you're able to implement the psychology aspects with confidence.

Confidence is vital. There are two types of confidence. One type is the arrogant type that Jim2109 possibly had. Bluff and bluster can certainly help when you come on to start a bowling spell. The problem with that arrogant type of confidence is that it can fall apart quite easily and quite quickly. The best type of confidence and, really, the only worthy type of confidence is the type that is built up from scratch and developed over time. It might appear to some that Warne was arrogant about his bowling. In fact, his confidence was founded on the hard work he had done in developing his technique and the knowledge he had about how good his technique was and how reliable it was. That type of confidence is durable and solid enough to support you out in the middle.

Topspin is good, sidespin is good, pace is good. Line and length is essential. Variations are useful.

The best ball any spinner can bowl is one at a good pace, with topspin and sidespin, leading to drift, dip, turn and bounce.

Bowling faster is only a problem if it means bowling flatter. It doesn't have to. Quite often that extra arm speed generates extra torque on the ball. Most amateur bowlers actually bowl too slowly and leave no room for a slower ball.

My belief about drift and dip is that you have to get the ball through the air with pace. There are people who get dip and drift with balls bowled about 40mph-45mph. Those deliveries will still cause some players problems. But decent batters will have plenty of time to adjust to a changing line and length. Getting it through at 50mph-55mph (effectievly, 10mph quicker) but maintaining that dip and drift will concern any batter. I'm not the best batter in the world, but I've faced a reasonable leg spinner who bowled 40mph-45mph with a bit of dip and drift. I was able to adjust and move my feet quite well. It has to be 50mph-55mph as a stock speed. The word that I think best sums up leg spin is "fizz". It really is about fizzing that ball out and to do that you need that arm speed. It's a very good point SLA made about that slower ball. If you are consistently in the 50mph-55mph range, then a slower side-spinner at 45mph can be very effective. If you are bowling 40mph-45mph, you leave no room for that delivery. Equally, with that arm speed and stock pace of 50mph-55mph, you can have a very effective slider. Many leg spinners in T20 (Tambe, most notably in the recent Champions League T20) have very, very effective sliders. That good arm speed coupled with the ball sliding out means you can get the ball through at 55mph-60mph and it will still have a bit of spin on it (unlike those finger spinners when they dart it through at that speed and end up bowling nothing more than slow-medium seamers).

 

[SLA]

My belief about drift and dip is that you have to get the ball through the air with pace. There are people who get dip and drift with balls bowled about 40mph-45mph. Those deliveries will still cause some players problems. But decent batters will have plenty of time to adjust to a changing line and length. Getting it through at 50mph-55mph (effectievly, 10mph quicker) but maintaining that dip and drift will concern any batter. I'm not the best batter in the world, but I've faced a reasonable leg spinner who bowled 40mph-45mph with a bit of dip and drift. I was able to adjust and move my feet quite well. It has to be 50mph-55mph as a stock speed. The word that I think best sums up leg spin is "fizz". It really is about fizzing that ball out and to do that you need that arm speed. It's a very good point SLA made about that slower ball. If you are consistently in the 50mph-55mph range, then a slower side-spinner at 45mph can be very effective. If you are bowling 40mph-45mph, you leave no room for that delivery. Equally, with that arm speed and stock pace of 50mph-55mph, you can have a very effective slider. Many leg spinners in T20 (Tambe, most notably in the recent Champions League T20) have very, very effective sliders. That good arm speed coupled with the ball sliding out means you can get the ball through at 55mph-60mph and it will still have a bit of spin on it (unlike those finger spinners when they dart it through at that speed and end up bowling nothing more than slow-medium seamers).

I think the confusion comes because a lot of spinning advice is aimed at semi-professional players who have had some success bowling in the 55-65 range, and are being told: slow down, get the ball above the eyeline - because for *most* spinners, 50-55mph with a healthy dose of topspin is the optimum speed to bowl at.

Then a low or mid level amateur reads this advice and goes "ah right, I need to slow down to be more successful". But he is already bowling at 40-45mph. Slow down anymore and he might as well bowl underarm. Other than the fact that most batsman will simply either step down the pitch or wait on the back foot and whack you, it is also very difficult to generate much torque with such a slow arm action.

There are plenty of examples of successful spinners at higher speeds: eg Afridi, Underwood, Kumble, and to some extent even Sydney Barnes, but I can't think of a single successful spinner who consistently bowled a stock ball much slower than 50mph.


A note on flight. I read a lot that "getting the ball above the eyeline" is crucial to beating batsmen in the flight, as if all you have to do is just bowl the same ball but bowl a bit slower and lob it up a bit more.

Frankly, this is complete nonsense. Simply bowling slower and loopier is not going to fool anyone over the age of 12. The key to beating people in the flight is topspin. Batsmen are brought up on a steady diet of backspin: fast bowlers, medium pacers, bowling machines, throwdowns: all backspin. Anticipating the path of a ball with backspin becomes second nature. Suddenly switch to topspin and everything changes: even experienced batsmen can start to struggle to predict where the ball is going to pitch.

 

[Darryn]

I naturally bowl with an open hand/wrist with the ball sliding out. You may have a similar problem. I concentrate on keeping the wrist cocked and getting over the ball. For me, it feels like I am getting into a position to bowl a top spinner, but the ball comes out as a good leg spinner. It might be an idea for you to focus on getting over the ball and putting lots of over spin on the ball.

Hi clean prophet, this is great advice as I have often felt that my hand is coming around and facing the batsmen like that of a slider in order to get maximum side spin. This felt like the ball is coming out from the front of the hand and not off the third finger. My thoughts are that this is hindering my consistency along with what Dave suggested in that my grip is way to tight. I bowled today and loosened my grip and I clearly had more control with the more relaxed approach. Less inconsistent with only a few disastrous deliveries.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I think the confusion comes because a lot of spinning advice is aimed at semi-professional players who have had some success bowling in the 55-65 range, and are being told: slow down, get the ball above the eyeline. Then a low or mid level amateur reads this advice and goes "ah right, I need to slow down to be more successful". But he is already bowling at 40-45mph.

A note on flight. I read a lot that "getting the ball above the eyeline" is crucial to beating batsmen in the flight, as if all you have to do is just bowl the same ball but bowl a bit slower and lob it up a bit more.

Frankly, this is complete nonsense.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more. If bowlers get the chance to watch a professional spinner in the nets they will be struck by the pace they ball as a stock pace. I was one of those leg spinners who bowled in the 40mph-45mph range, although I knew I had to get it through quicker - which I am now doing. Consequently, the slower ball and the quicker slider are far more effective. More than that, the stock leg spinner delivery at 50mph-55mph often finds the batter getting onto the front foot but not getting to the pitch of the ball (mainly due to the dip on the ball, but also because the batter has less time to adjust once he knows he is beaten). If I bowled at 40mph-45mph, the batter would be able to to shift onto his back foot and adjust once he knows he won't be able to get to the pitch of the ball.

I saw an interview with Eoin Morgan where he actually said that when he plays spin he likes to get low in his position and under the ball. This runs completely counter to age old advice that you have to get the ball above the batter's eyeline. It also proves exactly what SLA is saying that what causes the batter problems is the dip on the ball and not getting the ball above the eyeline. Of course, if the aim is simply to spin the ball up and, as a result, above the batter's eyeline, then that's fine because you do need to spin the ball up into the air and maximise the dip on the ball. But it is the dip and not the height of the ball that troubles the batter. As mentioned above, most of the time that I induce an error from the batter it is because of the dip. Working with some decent but young and improving batters, I have to tell them to expect the ball to land a good yard short of where they think it will because they get very frustrated at stepping forward, not getting to the ball and then watching it spin past the bat.

Incidently, I get decent drift most of the time. But I find that dip comes more naturally than drift. Given the choice, I would take dip over drift any day of the week. I find batters (decent batters) can adjust to drift more so than dip. There's something about that loop that really does confound judgement.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Hi clean prophet, this is great advice as I have often felt that my hand is coming around and facing the batsmen like that of a slider in order to get maximum side spin. This felt like the ball is coming out from the front of the hand and not off the third finger. My thoughts are that this is hindering my consistency along with what Dave suggested in that my grip is way to tight. I bowled today and loosened my grip and I clearly had more control with the more relaxed approach. Less inconsistent with only a few disastrous deliveries.

I also had quite a loose grip for some time before I changed that. I'd see interviews with Shane Warne where he would talk about having a loose grip and how it gives him leverage. I happened to have a loose grip and so thought I'd stick with it. The thing is, when Warne talks about a loose grip, it is only very, very slightly looser than other leggies. When you watch slow motion of his action, you will see the ball sitting quite deep in his hand with his fingers comfortably over the seam. I just pushed the ball back in my hand a touch (maybe half and inch or so) and it gave me more control. It took a little while to adjust to that change (not long - maybe a few weeks), but it was well worth it.

For those leggies who naturally bowl side spinners (I've seen some who naturally bowl wrong uns), you really do have to focus on getting over the ball and bowling lots of over spin. For me, I have to focus on doing that with every ball or I will slip back to bowling with too much side spin.

 

[SLA]

I saw an interview with Eoin Morgan where he actually said that when he plays spin he likes to get low in his position and under the ball. This runs completely counter to age old advice that you have to get the ball above the batter's eyeline. It also proves exactly what SLA is saying that what causes the batter problems is the dip on the ball and not getting the ball above the eyeline. Of course, if the aim is simply to spin the ball up and, as a result, above the batter's eyeline, then that's fine because you do need to spin the ball up into the air and maximise the dip on the ball. But it is the dip and not the height of the ball that troubles the batter. As mentioned above, most of the time that I induce an error from the batter it is because of the dip. Working with some decent but young and improving batters, I have to tell them to expect the ball to land a good yard short of where they think it will because they get very frustrated at stepping forward, not getting to the ball and then watching it spin past the bat.

Incidently, I get decent drift most of the time. But I find that dip comes more naturally than drift. Given the choice, I would take dip over drift any day of the week. I find batters (decent batters) can adjust to drift more so than dip. There's something about that loop that really does confound judgement.

I work with a couple of batsmen who struggle against spin, and I've found in both cases that their trouble originates in difficulty in reading the flight- particularly the dip.

Frequently they drive at a fullish delivery, the ball beats the bat and they get bowled and they look confused at how they missed it. "You need to get right to the pitch" I say, and they reply "I thought I did get right to the pitch, didn't I?". When I ask them to point out where the ball bounced compared to where their bat was, they point about 6 inches in front of it, which is probably where it would have landed had it been bowled with backspin. But in reality the ball bounced at least 2 foot further away than that.

As Bill Clinton frequently said in the runup to the 1992 American Presidential election, its the topspin, stupid.

 

[SLA]

I'd much rather bat against a bowler who exclusively bowled big drifting and turning sidespinners than a bowler who exclusively bowled dipping bouncing topspinners at a decent pace. Playing sideways movement is easy as long as you have good footwork and don't get yourself stuck in no-man's land.

Sidespin fo' sho', topspin fo' a pro'

 

[Cleanprophet]

I'd much rather bat against a bowler who exclusively bowled big drifting and turning sidespinners than a bowler who exclusively bowled dipping bouncing topspinners at a decent pace. Playing sideways movement is easy as long as you have good footwork and don't get yourself stuck in no-man's land.

Sidespin fo' sho', topspin fo' a pro'

lol, that is actually true and funny. You will hear people who have just started bowling leg spin talk about "how much turn" and even "how much drift" they get or want. It's true that many people get carried away with the drift and turn, thinking that this is the aim of leg spin. But of course, the aim of leg spin is to take wickets and win the game for his team. All a leggie needs to do is spend some time in nets bowling at batters and they will discover (as SLA has done and I have done) that it is the dip that causes most trouble. The aim is to pull the batter foward and get him driving at the ball and this is why dip is more important and useful than drift. A changing line is easier to read and adjust to (when facing a spinner - obviously, far less so when facing a quicker swing bowler). A changing length is much tougher. Possibly because batters have less time facing dip. You get sideways movement, whether you call it drift or swing, from spinners and seamers alike. It is only spinners and spinners who give it a good rip with plenty of over spin who get that dip. In other words, batters don't get to face a dipping ball very often. They just don't have the know-how to cope with it unless they drag a leggie down to the nets many, many times and get him to bowl to him.

My experience is exactly the same as SLA's when bowling to batters. When the ball drifts into the legs, the batter will sometimes fall to the off-side a little bit and maybe play slightly down the wrong line, but they can adjust or get away with it most of the time. Get that over spin and dip and they struggle much, much more. They just can't get to the pitch of the ball and are totally bemused as to why. In their mind, they have read the length and have got into position. In fact, they missed the pitch of the ball by quite a distance.

Drift is good and very useful, but only in conjunction with dip. That's when you know you are bowling well, when you get the ball to drift and dip. You can angle the ball into middle and leg. So if you don't get drift, it's not a problem - as long as you get that dip. However, if you can get a little bit of drift and a decent bit of dip, the batter will struggle with judgement of line and length.

 

[SLA]

lol, that is actually true and funny. You will hear people who have just started bowling leg spin talk about "how much turn" and even "how much drift" they get or want. It's true that many people get carried away with the drift and turn, thinking that this is the aim of leg spin. But of course, the aim of leg spin is to take wickets and win the game for his team.

When I was a young spinner ~11 or 12, I used to deliberately bowl short and slow so the ball was able to turn before the batsman intercepted it. I was so interested in showing off what huge turn I could get that I forgot that the point of bowling is to get wickets and prevent runs by any means necessary. Nothing annoyed me more than when a batsman played forward - how was I meant to know how much the ball would have turned?

Of course, I got smacked around. I figured it was because I wasn't turning the ball enough, and tried to bowl even slower and shorter.

 

[Cleanprophet]

When I was a young spinner ~11 or 12, I used to deliberately bowl short and slow so the ball was able to turn before the batsman intercepted it. I was so interested in showing off what huge turn I could get that I forgot that the point of bowling is to get wickets and prevent runs by any means necessary. Nothing annoyed me more than when a batsman played forward - how was I meant to know how much the ball would have turned?

Of course, I got smacked around. I figured it was because I wasn't turning the ball enough, and tried to bowl even slower and shorter.

It is easy to get carried away with big spin or, as was the case with me, focus too much on the technique of the bowling and not on the business of taking wickets. The topic is "some disasters and how to avoid them" and that is one disaster you can have. Focusing too much on technique and trying to make technical adjustments in a match. I remember playing in a friendly match a few months ago when someone relatively new to cricket was bowling. He was struggling a little bit and some older bloke was trying to give technical advice and suggesting going around the wicket. I took the bowler to one side and told him "forget everything he just told you. Do what you have been doing in the nets in the last few weeks. Anything technical can be worked on next time you are in the nets. That's what the nets are there for. In matches, keep it simple". I learned that the hard way.

 

[SLA]

It is easy to get carried away with big spin or, as was the case with me, focus too much on the technique of the bowling and not on the business of taking wickets. The topic is "some disasters and how to avoid them" and that is one disaster you can have. Focusing too much on technique and trying to make technical adjustments in a match. I remember playing in a friendly match a few months ago when someone relatively new to cricket was bowling. He was struggling a little bit and some older bloke was trying to give technical advice and suggesting going around the wicket. I took the bowler to one side and told him "forget everything he just told you. Do what you have been doing in the nets in the last few weeks. Anything technical can be worked on next time you are in the nets. That's what the nets are there for. In matches, keep it simple". I learned that the hard way.

So many people post videos of their actions and ask us to "fix it" on this website. Its like posting a photo of your car and asking us to make it drive better. Would you trust a mechanic that tells you what work you need doing from a photo? Well then why would you trust a coach who tells you how to fix your action from just watching a video?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

So many people post videos of their actions and ask us to "fix it" on this website. Its like posting a photo of your car and asking us to make it drive better. Would you trust a mechanic that tells you what work you need doing from a photo? Well then why would you trust a coach who tells you how to fix your action from just watching a video?

SLA, there's so little out there in the way of support for wrist spinners, just being able to post the video and get some feedback helps a lot of people out I reckon, I know what you mean from your comment, but when you're thrashing about out there on your own trying to work things out and not knowing why things are not coming together, just the fact that there is a community of people who are willing to say a few supportive words is helpful. I think in time as you progress you get a sense of how useful it is or isn't, but just knowing someone is there to offer a little advice is a good thing?

 

[leftie600]

I'm with Dave on this, there's ************ all useful stuff out there for legspin and even less with regard to coaches who know what they are talking about. Everything I have is self taught with some of the refining done by thinking about a few of the thoughts that have been posted on sites like this. I remember being coached through a winter by a guy that was a then FC coach and is now part of the NZ side's setup, he contributed nothing to my game as he knew nothing about legspin (probably explains why NZ is crap against spin).

Where I am with SLA is when people post videos and say 'what's wrong with my action'? You wouldn't do that with the coach of your team/club at a practice, you'd ask for help with something specific that you're having issues with which is what the posters need to be doing here. With kids under 15 I am wary of giving detailed advice over the net, often they just need to go away and learn how to bowl or get help from a local coach in person.

 

[Darryn]

I naturally bowl with an open hand/wrist with the ball sliding out. You may have a similar problem. I concentrate on keeping the wrist cocked and getting over the ball. For me, it feels like I am getting into a position to bowl a top spinner, but the ball comes out as a good leg spinner. It might be an idea for you to focus on getting over the ball and putting lots of over spin on the ball.

Hi Cleanprophet,
so far so good. I clearly have become more consistent by using an over exaggerated loose grip. This has been a big step forward. When concentrating on bowling over spin or topspin, occasionally the ball flies out high (have to collect it on top of the nets!) It feels like their is little fizz on it when it happens. I have also read a post where concentrating on keeping the wrist cocked and 3rd and 4th finger's down may aid in consistent length and direction as well as fizz. I have found this if i concentrate on not letting them lift during the release of the ball. Any thoughts would be appreciated?
Darryn

 

[SLA]

SLA, there's so little out there in the way of support for wrist spinners, just being able to post the video and get some feedback helps a lot of people out I reckon, I know what you mean from your comment, but when you're thrashing about out there on your own trying to work things out and not knowing why things are not coming together, just the fact that there is a community of people who are willing to say a few supportive words is helpful. I think in time as you progress you get a sense of how useful it is or isn't, but just knowing someone is there to offer a little advice is a good thing?

Yes ok Dave, what I meant was that just like you'd probably tell you garage what the actual problem WAS with your car before taking it in, any video of an action should probably be preceded with a detailed dialogue about what exactly the problem is in games and an attempt to fix it tactically first.

Anyone asking would actually probably get better feedback by posting a video showing a batsman batting against their bowling than the action itself, because that gives us more information about what the problem is. Most problems can be fixed without having to really alter the action.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Hi Cleanprophet,
so far so good. I clearly have become more consistent by using an over exaggerated loose grip. This has been a big step forward. When concentrating on bowling over spin or topspin, occasionally the ball flies out high (have to collect it on top of the nets!) It feels like their is little fizz on it when it happens. I have also read a post where concentrating on keeping the wrist cocked and 3rd and 4th finger's down may aid in consistent length and direction as well as fizz. I have found this if i concentrate on not letting them lift during the release of the ball. Any thoughts would be appreciated?
Darryn

Most likely the reason the ball does fly out high is because the wrist isn't cocked enough and the ball is just slipping out. As you say, your 3rd and 4th fingers are not on top of the ball, but sliding down the side of the ball. Getting over the ball and getting that over spin will help, but you will also need to focus hard on keeping that wrist cocked. I remember speaking about this with Dave. It will feel like your wrist is cocked too much when you do this. It won't be. It will just feel like that. One thing I try to do is focus on keeping the palm of my hand facing downwards rather than thinking about cocking the wrist. To be exact, I don't aim to have the palm facing completely towards the floor. I aim to have it facing down, but slightly angled away from me.

Trust me, it is tricky to get over the ball and keep the wrist cocked. Even now, I can easily slip into opening the wrist and the ball slides out with side spin with the seam spinning on its side rather than upright. I use a two-coloured ball so that I can always spot when that happens. Without that ball, I probably wouldn't realise I was doing it. I suspect I may never be able to bowl as I want to naturally and will always have to focus on getting over the ball and cocking the wrist.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Anyone asking would actually probably get better feedback by posting a video showing a batsman batting against their bowling than the action itself, because that gives us more information about what the problem is. Most problems can be fixed without having to really alter the action.

Really, you would have to post a reasonably long video (probably a good 5mins+) including the good, the bad and the ugly. I'm sure most people will film themselves, pick out the decent deliveries and ask for advice. When you bowl a good ball, you don't need advice. It's when things don't go well that you could do with some advice.

For sure, footage of you bowling to someone will be better and a longer video better still. I do agree with Dave that there is so little out there that people just want another opinion - even if it is along the lines of "looks good, keep it up".

 

[Darryn]

Most likely the reason the ball does fly out high is because the wrist isn't cocked enough and the ball is just slipping out. As you say, your 3rd and 4th fingers are not on top of the ball, but sliding down the side of the ball. Getting over the ball and getting that over spin will help, but you will also need to focus hard on keeping that wrist cocked. I remember speaking about this with Dave. It will feel like your wrist is cocked too much when you do this. It won't be. It will just feel like that. One thing I try to do is focus on keeping the palm of my hand facing downwards rather than thinking about cocking the wrist. To be exact, I don't aim to have the palm facing completely towards the floor. I aim to have it facing down, but slightly angled away from me.

Trust me, it is tricky to get over the ball and keep the wrist cocked. Even now, I can easily slip into opening the wrist and the ball slides out with side spin with the seam spinning on its side rather than upright. I use a two-coloured ball so that I can always spot when that happens. Without that ball, I probably wouldn't realise I was doing it. I suspect I may never be able to bowl as I want to naturally and will always have to focus on getting over the ball and cocking the wrist.

Great advice. I have just bought a 2 coloured ball. What should I look for when bowling with this?

 

[SLA]

Great advice. I have just bought a 2 coloured ball. What should I look for when bowling with this?

See if you can make it do whatever you want it to do. Topspin, sidespin, backspin, a mixture of both. Presented seam, scrambled seam. Watching the ball is an intermediate feedback mechanism that helps mentally link your efforts and your ultimate results.