Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    What I would say Dave, is work on that front arm. It is so important to your whole action. It's easy to get overly focused on your bowling arm and not bother with that front arm, but it is as important as the bowling arm. What you don't want to do is scour the internet for examples of bowlers who have a similar front arm to you. That is just finding exceptions to try and disprove the rule and ignore issues in your own action. I've done it myself and done it for the front arm too. My front arm pushes out to the legside rather than at the target. I saw that Bishoo did that too and thought "well, it can't be that big of a problem". But that's the wrong way to think about it. Bishoo is a pro legspinner. I'm not. It may not effect him that much but that doesn't mean I should not fix it in my action. Same with you and Chandrasekhar. These people are exceptions to the rule regarding the front arm. Bottom line is, the arm should really pull down hard and at the target. Simple as that. If you are able to produce top, top quality bowling without doing that, fair enough. If you can't, then you must get that front arm sorted.

    I've been down to the nets today and focused on keeping that front arm higher for a fraction longer and pulling it down hard towards the taregt. It really is such a crucial aspect of bowling. There's a clip of Warne/Zampa and you can see that Zampa's front arm actually pulls to the offside a bit. Warne's is straight at the target. That front arm of Zampa allows him to rotate to front on really quick and late. At the very last split second, Zampa's chest is pointing to square leg whereas Warne's is facing legslip. Also, the batter can see the back of Zampa's hand (as if he is bowling a googly). The back of Warne's hand is facing towards him. But Zampa is able to get to front on and produce a decent amount of sidespin with a very, very late twist to front on. In the long run, he won't always do that and will lose consistency of accuracy because the action is too rushed. Warne's is, as you might expect, much more rhythmical and smooth. For me, that arm pushing out to the legside gets me too open chested and makes rotation less dynamic. There's no doubt about it. I have to get that front arm pulling down hard at the target and you do too Dave. I bet you find that your follow through is far better once you get that front arm working for you as it should do.
     
  2. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    Just to clarify my previous answer: I think any momentum that is in the follow through should be down the wicket. I just don't think there should be too much of it especially for a spin bowler. I think a spin bowler should be able to bring the back foot around, plant it and then stand up.

    If you have momentum taking you to the side, I would think that indicates a flaw.
     
  3. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I am similar to what you just said boogiespinner. I bring the back foot over, it lands with my bowling shoulder facing the batsman, and then I get into a position ready for a return catch.
     
  4. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Been thinking about this and working out what I might do, so I'll try and give this a go tomorrow.
     
  5. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    This looks good and is useful and deals with a lot of the stuff you lot have been discussing here.
     
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  6. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That's what you want. Ready for a return catch. Your momentum should, ideally, leave you with that bowling shoulder facing the target and then you should be able to stop that momentum and get ready for any return catch.
     
  7. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    I am converted to the idea that spin bowlers should step inwards with the front foot. I was wondering why they all seem to do it, but the following came to me. Suppose you have to walk towards something and hit it as hard as possible with your shoulder. If you imagine that then automatically you will step inwards with the front foot!

    I was thinking about this because I'd realised that my best deliveries - the ones that had by far the most zip - were achieved when I managed to relax the arm a bit while the shoulder came through strongly, the arm then whipping through thanks to being stretched. So maybe it's best to drive the shoulder (or armpit) as hard as possible towards the batsman.
     
  8. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    Perfect!
     
  9. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    It's quite funny that you say that because I thought the exact same thing today at the nets. I was thinking about my front arm position (splaying out to the legside) and how that must have my shoulder pointed towards legstump or somewhere around there. I then thought about pushing the front shoulder at the target as well as the front arm - just to ensure that my momentum is pushing forwards and at the target. This is one little 1/2 speed clip of me doing that and pulling down hard with that front arm:



    I still don't fully know whether my issues with that hand position at release (putting too much topspin on the ball) is psychological or technical. Without getting that front arm pulling down hard at the target, I will struggle to rotate with energy and may well be short of front on position at the point of release. I only need to be short of it by a small amount to leave me releasing the ball before my arm/hand is in the required position/angle and the ball will be released before I have the chance to drag my fingers over the ball and impart the sidespin I want.

    I have found that when I really do pull down hard with that front arm I am able to get a fair amount of sidespin on the ball. Ultimately, I have to start using that front arm properly and see where that leaves me.
     
  10. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you're working with the same thing as me, have you started to try and do it with a run in? I found some advice that was on here 3 years ago that I blogged about by SLA. His advice was in the gather get your left elbow up so that your left hand is up around your right ear and then your set up to reach out and steer towards your target. I've been visualising it and doing it without a ball in my hand, but I'm gagging now to get out there on a field somewhere and try and get it incorporated into my bowling and practice it and see if it makes any significant difference.

    I also figured out that I can do a frame by frame viewing of the videos in windows movie maker and therefore able to see all my action in sequences and yeah it's not pretty. There's a lot of work to do, but with this step at a time approach I do feel in the longer term I'm going to reap the benefits next season.
     
  11. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    About 3 weeks ago or so, when I first tried the longer run in, I also incorporated that front arm change of pulling down hard at the target. That's when I first started to get the legspinners coming out again. For some reason, I got preoccupied with other things and forgot to carry on pulling down hard with that front arm. The last time I did it was a couple of weeks ago when the club captain remarked on the amount of loop I was getting. Also, what I found was that my arm/shoulder was a bit stiff for a day or two (just like when you bowl for the first time in months), which indicated that my whole action was a lot more energetic. Whether that was down to the new run in, the work of the front arm or both, I don't know (I suspect a bit of both). As I say, for some reason I haven't been thinking about really using that front arm in the last couple of weeks.

    I suppose you want to know how it felt to use that front arm with a full run in? Actually, it wasn't too bad. It did feel a little more awkward than doing it in a stand start and step start, but not too bad. I just thought about keeping the arm higher for a little longer. Doing that sort of naturally led into me then pulling the arm down hard and at the target. I think it will take a few weeks before you start doing it naturally and it may well be that you always have to remind yourself to pull down hard with that front arm. That's ok. Most bowlers will have one or two things that they repeat to themselves. As we know, Warne would think "think high, spin up". Many, many batters simply say to themselves "watch the ball, watch the ball". I just tend to think "pull hard at offstump".

    Once you get it all synced up nicely, you will find it hugely helpful.
     
  12. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    I've just videoed myself trying to produce the bowing action without a ball and it's very interesting. I'm going to try and take that onto the field this afternoon against my son and see how it goes, more to come this evening with vids and pictures. It's all very interesting...

    This is a locked video so I think you can only access it via a link that I share. But I though this looked very promising in the context of the re-construction of my bowling action.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
  13. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Then this afternoon it came together like this
     
  14. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    Dave the ball at 31-35 seconds - AWESOME.

    and you are bracing / pivoting quite nicely on the next ball as well.

    I don't know what you were working on but man I could hardly believe what I was seeing with those two!

    Also the very last ball.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    someblokecalleddave likes this.
  15. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm not working on the pivot yet, but I threw a few in there to see if I could still hold the whole thing together. I'm still working with the leading arm, it feels a lot more organised as though I know what I'm doing with it, but I'm now wondering whether the arm should be extended and reaching forwards? We've had the clubs funday today and I've been bowling against the under 15's and youth players and a couple of adults and they've all noticed the significant difference. At one point someone (frank Farrington) said - don't bowl the darts, toss it up more, so I'm obviously getting more speed. Cheers for the positive comment, I do feel like there's been some significant improvements, I just need the weather to hold out all the way through the rest of September and hopefully all of October so that I can carry on working with this. One thing happened today - When I'm bowling against a batsman I obviously put more effort into the bowling as I was called No-Ball a few times, so I've had to extend the run up another 2'.
     
  16. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That looks ten times better. It all just looks so much more energetic and rhythmical.
     
  17. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    All sounds very promising. That bowling in the second video is a lot better than what you were doing just last week. The energy is much better and the momentum is much more towards the target. I was going to say something about your front arm but you already got in there and said it yourself. It does tend to fold in quite quickly. I would say that you could keep it up for a bit longer than you are. Someone like Pravin Tambe would have that front arm still out at the target at the point that the bowling arm is at shoulder height (so that both arms are at shoulder height) and then as the bowling arm rises, the front arm comes down, almost like a see-saw. Most bowlers drop the front arm a little earlier than that but your arm is already tucked in before your bowling arm has got above head height. We're talking small margins here by the way. That first video (with you not releasing the ball), your front arm does come down a little later. If you look at my video, it is similar. In your second video, it comes down a bit earlier.

    It might be worth trying to hold it up for a little bit longer and see how it feels. There's still some balls that are a little off target and maybe holding that front arm up a little bit longer may help with that. You certainly seem to be using that front arm much more and that is showing in more energy on the ball. But maybe delaying the use of that front arm just a little bit will help with balance and then consistency?

    As a guide, I would suggest that your front arm should be tucking in just as your bowling hand is getting to its highest point. At the moment it is tucking in as your bowling had is behind you and at about head height.
     
  18. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    Had my last game of the season today and it wasn't great. The pitch, if you can call it a pitch, was a horrible pudding of a pitch. I didn't know whether to bring my bat or a spoon and a pot of custard! You could definitely push your finger into the pitch quite easily. Absolutely no pace and no bounce. Tracks like that just give lesser batters all the time in the world and it encourages slogging. You either bowl it quicker and with lots of overspin or you bowl it slower and fuller and force the batter to take the initiative. It was so slow that the option of bowling it quicker and with overspin wasn't really on because even then the batter is able to adjust when he is beaten. None of it really helped my bowling action and the problems I've been having. I wanted to bowl off a short run up and focus on getting a series of legspinners out. In the end, I had to bowl off the full run up and try to rip the ball to get some loop. It was just too awkward. It was just like putting a set of stumps in the middle of a field and bowling to them.

    I bowled 5 overs and suggested to the captain that he should make a bowling change and try and get a wicket that way. No idea what my figures were at that point (probably something like 0 for 25 from 5). I did bowl some decent balls and beat the bat a number of times. But it was annoying bowling to a fairly poor bat who was able to get on the back foot and slog anything that was marginally short on account of it being so horribly slow. I came back on for one more over when they needed about 8 or 9 runs and they got them off that over. Our home pitch is a proper pitch (still probably nowhere near as hard as pro pitch) and I'm getting sick of going to these smaller clubs and playing on their slow pudding pitches that just give weak batters that little bit more time to play.

    Ahh well, that's the season finished anyway and now I can focus squarely on getting my action sorted. Next season, I won't be playing on any of these horrible pitches. I'll either play in the competitive teams or play only home games.

    I remember one game in North Wales when we had the club captain and first team captain both batting for us. The pitch was terrible. Not as slow as many others, but uneven bounce and lots of turn. They both said that pitches like that almost require slogging for you to get runs. Batting properly often goes unrewarded on such poor pitches. Many club sides play on these pitches and slog because of it. It's just a different game when you play on these non-cricket wickets. Everything you've learned to do is almost thrown out of the window in favour of bowling pies and slogging!
     
  19. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    When they're dry though, they tend to turn okay, we've got this kind of scenario next year as we only won one game this season and we've got to drop down a league. I'm looking forward to it personally, as I reckon it'll be a wicket-fest.
     
  20. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Glad you made all the points that you did and that you recognise there's been a significant improvement. I'm especially pleased about the small margins comment with regards the leading arm. I may just carry on as I am and not think about it too much and just see how it 'Beds in'. What I want to happen is that this becomes 'Grooved' as it is and that I don't have to give it any thought along with the new run-up. Once I'm kind of there I can then start to look at the next tweak, which may be the fine tuning of the arm or getting up on the toes consistently.
     
Put it out there