Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi i understood thanx to edge of willow how to bowl with a karate action
but i saw terry jenner and shane warne videos on youtube they tell that when u bowl with the thumb pointing towards the batsman like the karate action u bowl an overspinner and u can bowl legbreak only when the back of your hand is facing u

i didnt wat does spinning back to u mean

This is what spinning the ball back means - YouTube - Wrist spin - round the loop - slider & big Leg Break practice technique

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I for one find it very difficult to wrench my shoulder round to bowl a googly, I find it really jars my shoulder. To overcome it as Jim says slow motion helps, but i think what macca says about bowling to a wall, and noticing the seam helps in teaching you what to do.

About slow mo software jim, I have an old Panasonic DCR TRV340E camcorder. On moving houses 5 years ago i lost the cd with drivers and other software. Do you know of any way to get them. I tried over the net but the model is about 10 years old. And what software do you use to slow it down, something like Pixela? By the way I am semi illiterate when it comes to software and gizmos unfortunately. I know it is a bit off topic, but with you and dave, I may be able to put it to better use.

You need to have a camera that records digital files wmv's or mpeg's are the most common. I don't know much about the technical stuff, if you've got a camera that records DV tape it's possible to convert the DV tape into wmv, avi's or mpeg files with the right software, but I've always had the impression the software was expensive and required a powerful computer? What you need is a camera that records in the same way that many mobile phones do these days. If you can get one of those you can then use this slo mo program which is free

Get VirtualDub. Welcome to virtualdub.org! - virtualdub.org

Instructions......

Open your video file in virtualdub. Click on audio. Click no audio (this is needed, since if the video plays in slow motion, the duration of the audio won’t match). Then click video. Click direct stream copy (so the conversion is lossless). Then click video. Click frame rate. Under 'source rate adjustment' select the 'change to [blank] frames per second' bullet and type in a frame rate (smaller than the one on the line above it, obviously). Then click file, save as avi, and you’re done.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Thank you. The problem is I lost the drivers, so the computer does not communicate with the camera. I tried downloading the drivers from the sony website for the camera and for the windows vista but still no luck. But thanks for the virtual dub, if i manage to get over this technical hitch, I will try the software. It records on hi8 tape.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I for one find it very difficult to wrench my shoulder round to bowl a googly, I find it really jars my shoulder. To overcome it as Jim says slow motion helps, but i think what macca says about bowling to a wall, and noticing the seam helps in teaching you what to do.

About slow mo software jim, I have an old Panasonic DCR TRV340E camcorder. On moving houses 5 years ago i lost the cd with drivers and other software. Do you know of any way to get them. I tried over the net but the model is about 10 years old. And what software do you use to slow it down, something like Pixela? By the way I am semi illiterate when it comes to software and gizmos unfortunately. I know it is a bit off topic, but with you and dave, I may be able to put it to better use.

thats a Sony camcorder model in the UK. maybe Panasonic and Sony shared some camcorder models in different countries and used the same model number. but in the UK thats definitely a Sony camcorder.

heres the USB driver so that you can connect to it from your computer.
Digital Imaging*|* DCR-TRV340E*|*Sony Support Europe

i cant find specific software for it, but you can capture the video using Windows Movie Maker. simply open Movie Maker, click "capture from video device" at the top left, and it takes care of the rest for you. so long as youve got that driver installed you should be fine.

i use Sony Vegas software for my video editing. purely for the reason that my camcorder records in AVCHD format which is a Sony/Panasonic developed technology, which slowly the other manufacturers are adopting, but most of them used their own HD format originally. which means that much of the editing softwares (particularly the cheap/free ones) dont support AVCHD, and as soon as you convert it to another format you lose quality. whereas importing it directly into Vegas means i can edit it at 100% quality, and then export it in AVCHD format for YouTube with no loss of quality anywhere along the line

if youre using an older Sony/Panasonic tape camcorder then youve got more options. it will probably record in MPEG format, which means you can use a piece of software called "Virtual Dub". its completely free to download, and not too hard to use really. you simply import your video off your camera onto your computer using the camera software. open up Virtual Dub, open up the video you want to edit. then you click "Video" at the top, "Frame Rate", "Change frame rate to (fps):" and then enter a new value in the box and click ok. the standard frame rate will be 24 or 25fps normally (unless you have NTSC in which case its 30fps), if you want to run it at quarter speed like my slow motion capture does then just use 6fps. youll lose some detail but its still watchable. the cool thing about my slow motion camcorder is that it records at 240fps (which equates to 100fps in PAL, 120fps in NTSC), so i can slow it down to 1/16 speed and it still looks smooth!!

my YouTube videos are all at 1/4 speed to start with, then some of them have the same footage at 1/16 speed after that. to give you a reference.

edit: Dave beat me to the software advice whilst i was typing lol. and youve already tried the Sony driver, so i guess back to the drawing board!! have you tried just plugging the camcorder in and using Windows Movie Maker? my old Sony didnt even need the driver, i just used to plug it in, and then windows movie maker captured the video itself directly off the tape (it took as long to capture the video as it took to play the tape, it just captured it in real time whilst playing the tape).

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

thats a Sony camcorder model in the UK. maybe Panasonic and Sony shared some camcorder models in different countries and used the same model number. but in the UK thats definitely a Sony camcorder.

heres the USB driver so that you can connect to it from your computer.
Digital Imaging*|* DCR-TRV340E*|*Sony Support Europe

i cant find specific software for it, but you can capture the video using Windows Movie Maker. simply open Movie Maker, click "capture from video device" at the top left, and it takes care of the rest for you. so long as youve got that driver installed you should be fine.

i use Sony Vegas software for my video editing. purely for the reason that my camcorder records in AVCHD format which is a Sony/Panasonic developed technology, which slowly the other manufacturers are adopting, but most of them used their own HD format originally. which means that much of the editing softwares (particularly the cheap/free ones) dont support AVCHD, and as soon as you convert it to another format you lose quality. whereas importing it directly into Vegas means i can edit it at 100% quality, and then export it in AVCHD format for YouTube with no loss of quality anywhere along the line

if youre using an older Sony/Panasonic tape camcorder then youve got more options. it will probably record in MPEG format, which means you can use a piece of software called "Virtual Dub". its completely free to download, and not too hard to use really. you simply import your video off your camera onto your computer using the camera software. open up Virtual Dub, open up the video you want to edit. then you click "Video" at the top, "Frame Rate", "Change frame rate to (fps):" and then enter a new value in the box and click ok. the standard frame rate will be 24 or 25fps normally (unless you have NTSC in which case its 30fps), if you want to run it at quarter speed like my slow motion capture does then just use 6fps. youll lose some detail but its still watchable. the cool thing about my slow motion camcorder is that it records at 240fps (which equates to 100fps in PAL, 120fps in NTSC), so i can slow it down to 1/16 speed and it still looks smooth!!

my YouTube videos are all at 1/4 speed to start with, then some of them have the same footage at 1/16 speed after that. to give you a reference.

edit: Dave beat me to the software advice whilst i was typing lol. and youve already tried the Sony driver, so i guess back to the drawing board!! have you tried just plugging the camcorder in and using Windows Movie Maker? my old Sony didnt even need the driver, i just used to plug it in, and then windows movie maker captured the video itself directly off the tape (it took as long to capture the video as it took to play the tape, it just captured it in real time whilst playing the tape).

Yes you are right it is a sony camcorder. Had downloaded the drivers for vista from the website, but it somehow still does not recognise the camera. Will try to solve it when I am quiet at home. Thank you for your help.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Will try the windows movie maker. Cheers.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Thank you. The problem is I lost the drivers, so the computer does not communicate with the camera. I tried downloading the drivers from the sony website for the camera and for the windows vista but still no luck. But thanks for the virtual dub, if i manage to get over this technical hitch, I will try the software. It records on hi8 tape.

I think with the speed of technology now Hi8 is Old Skool. I'm not aware of any systems that record from Hi8 to mpeg, AVI or MVI's - but there maybe something out there - the trick is knowing someone that works with that stuff otherwise it'll cost you money. Oh there you go - Jim's got the solutions.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi i understood thanx to edge of willow how to bowl with a karate action
but i saw terry jenner and shane warne videos on youtube they tell that when u bowl with the thumb pointing towards the batsman like the karate action u bowl an overspinner and u can bowl legbreak only when the back of your hand is facing u

i didnt wat does spinning back to u mean

Ugh, I am hypocritical aren't I. My bad for not explaining it properly.

Dave has already posted a video(watch it) but I will give an explanation as well. Basically, it is what suggests, spinning the ball back towards yourself. The easiest way to understand it is to get a ball and hold it up at about the highest point of your action with the leg-break grip(palm of the hand should be facing downwards). Now I expect your hand will be pointing roughly straight ahead(if it is not, turn so the front of your hand points straight ahead) and if you look up I would expect you to be looking directly at the line of your thumb(or where your thumb would sit if you had it on the ball). To spin the ball back towards yourself, you rotate wrist slightly up in a clockwise direction(assuming a right handed bowler), so instead of seeing the thumb line(or imaginary thumb line), you see the palm of your hand when you look up at your bowling arm. Then you just flick your wrist normally, and because your wrist is turned upwards and to the left, the wrist flick will feel as though you are spinning the ball back towards yourself: like you are attempting to make the ball pitch and turn straight back towards you the bowler. Depending on the position that your wrist, you will either get a leg-break with a lot of side spin(and possibly some back-spin) or a slider(a back-spinner bowled with the same wrist flick as the leg-break).

They are correct. The "karate chop" used by Dave refers to the finishing position of the hand after the wrist flick. It does not refer to the orientation of that "karate chop." What Jenner and Warne would be referring to is "karate chop" that points more or less directly upwards(and faces the wrong way; the chopping side of the hand, the one with the little finger, is facing behind you rather towards what you are about to chop) after flicking a top-spinner. For the leg-break, the hand still gets in the "karate chop" position as described by Dave, it is just pointing in a different direction.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Here is Jenner answering some questions at cricinfo Terry Jenner: 'Dot-ball cricket is hurting spin' | Page 2 | Cricinfo.com

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Ugh, I am hypocritical aren't I. My bad for not explaining it properly.

Dave has already posted a video(watch it) but I will give an explanation as well. Basically, it is what suggests, spinning the ball back towards yourself. The easiest way to understand it is to get a ball and hold it up at about the highest point of your action with the leg-break grip(palm of the hand should be facing downwards). Now I expect your hand will be pointing roughly straight ahead(if it is not, turn so the front of your hand points straight ahead) and if you look up I would expect you to be looking directly at the line of your thumb(or where your thumb would sit if you had it on the ball). To spin the ball back towards yourself, you rotate wrist slightly up in a clockwise direction(assuming a right handed bowler), so instead of seeing the thumb line(or imaginary thumb line), you see the palm of your hand when you look up at your bowling arm. Then you just flick your wrist normally, and because your wrist is turned upwards and to the left, the wrist flick will feel as though you are spinning the ball back towards yourself: like you are attempting to make the ball pitch and turn straight back towards you the bowler. Depending on the position that your wrist, you will either get a leg-break with a lot of side spin(and possibly some back-spin) or a slider(a back-spinner bowled with the same wrist flick as the leg-break).

They are correct. The "karate chop" used by Dave refers to the finishing position of the hand after the wrist flick. It does not refer to the orientation of that "karate chop." What Jenner and Warne would be referring to is "karate chop" that points more or less directly upwards(and faces the wrong way; the chopping side of the hand, the one with the little finger, is facing behind you rather towards what you are about to chop) after flicking a top-spinner. For the leg-break, the hand still gets in the "karate chop" position as described by Dave, it is just pointing in a different direction.

When I first started bowling leg spin I was told to stick my thumb out with a flat palm, so very much like the karate chop you describe. I was told it was a good method for connecting in your mind the direction of spin and the position of the wrist as if you're bowling in the orthodox fashion like me the thumb will point in the direction of spin. I should point out this was a learning technique not how it was suggested I should bowl if that makes any sense.

This isn't a technique I would advise in game situation as it makes your variations easier to pick but if you're just starting out it can help in gaining muscle memory.
After about a month of this I had the muscle memory to know which wrist position would produce which ball and placed my thumb on the ball which is more natural for me. I only used this for leg breaks and top spinners to begin with as I left the wrong'un and slider until much later in life but I found it helpful for those deliveries.
it also helped me get rid of the dreaded googly syndrome which I had for about a month after first learning that delivery.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

When I first started bowling leg spin I was told to stick my thumb out with a flat palm, so very much like the karate chop you describe. I was told it was a good method for connecting in your mind the direction of spin and the position of the wrist as if you're bowling in the orthodox fashion like me the thumb will point in the direction of spin. I should point out this was a learning technique not how it was suggested I should bowl if that makes any sense.

This isn't a technique I would advise in game situation as it makes your variations easier to pick but if you're just starting out it can help in gaining muscle memory.
After about a month of this I had the muscle memory to know which wrist position would produce which ball and placed my thumb on the ball which is more natural for me. I only used this for leg breaks and top spinners to begin with as I left the wrong'un and slider until much later in life but I found it helpful for those deliveries.
it also helped me get rid of the dreaded googly syndrome which I had for about a month after first learning that delivery.

See - muscle memory and the googly, once learned so difficult to un-learn. I still have to think 'Karate Chop' or my Leg Breaks go wrong. All this will be resolved once I get that slow mo camera and examine what it is that my hand and wrist does when I bowl.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

So, are you a LH wrist spinner AKA a Chinaman?
Yeah you want to rest that shoulder I reckon maybe in the short term stop flicking the ball for a week or two and see if it eases up? What happened to your shoulder?

Just checked your blog out so it sounds like you've got some stuff to work out there? It sounds like it's not just your shoulder and that it's like my foot situation in that the pain is a result of more deep rooted problems e.g. a badly twisted ankle back in 1979 and a severe achilles tear in 2002. Both these older problems have meant that more of my weight distribution is taken by my right foot/leg and as a result the left leg is weak with tight muscles and then when it comes to it bieng stressed e.g. juming off a wall 2 years ago the weak leg couldn't do it's job and the result is this plantis faciitis which I'm suffering from. I'm considering doing the physio thing as well and seeing what the real deal is. £45 doesn't sound too bad. Let's hop you recover in time for the season?

I'm right-handed but the pain seems to come from the joint rather than the muscles so any movement of the upper left arm is slightly painful. Thankfully it seems to be mending now and it's unlikely it'll stop me playing. I batted in the nets a bit on Sunday and it seemed reasonably OK. I don't think I've got any long-standing issues with my shoulders, they've just got accustomed to bad posture and it's incredible how two one-hour sessions have transformed my posture. The shoulder thing I think comes from jarring as I made a sharp movement, but can't remember when it happened.

One piece of news is that the club I'm joining has a handful of leg-spinners in it, one of whom bowled at me in the nets and had me in knots throughout - even though he was taking it easy on me! Not sure if it's good or bad to be surrounded by more leggies...

I was wondering if anyone had any views on whether large or small wrists were best for a leg-spinner? My wrists are remarkably small for an adult so I was wondering about it. Perhaps it could be an advantage in flexibility and a disadvantage in power which would cancel itself out? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear everyone's take on that.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I was wondering if anyone had any views on whether large or small wrists were best for a leg-spinner? My wrists are remarkably small for an adult so I was wondering about it. Perhaps it could be an advantage in flexibility and a disadvantage in power which would cancel itself out? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear everyone's take on that.

You would think the bigger the better but I have seen kids and small guys with small wrists spin the ball as big as you need to. Maybe it is suppleness of the wrists.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Many types of bowling here, but wrist spin is right at the bottom. He looks like a good leggie wih queensland? Queensland Cricket - First Innings - Beyond Basic Bowling

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

wrists arent as important as hands. big hands are advantageous, more leverage. wrists arent about size, more strength and suppleness. you can make up for any physical deficiency with technique though. theres no reason why someone of any physical build cant bowl leg spin well. physique plays a small part, technique plays a much bigger part.

i had another club net session tonight. what a complete waste of time, i wish i hadnt bothered. i bowled about 3 balls all evening that were even remotely ok, nothing turned whatsoever (well, not by the standards i set myself), i wasnt spraying it around as much, i wasnt even getting it out of my fingers!!! i bowled more drag downs than i did good balls. then to top it all off i batted for 10 mins at the end, was utterly attrocious at that as well, and took a hit on my right wrist for my troubles and it hurts like hell and has a giant swollen bulge in the middle of it. excellent!

next week im sticking myself in the end net that nobody bats in, and im not leaving it until im ripping the ball 3 feet+. the problem with bowling at batsmen is that they are a distraction, and when your technique is in desperate need of work there is just no way to adjust it. youre bowling in a queue with maybe 4-6 other bowlers, so you get a ball every 2-3 mins. its just not focussed enough training to make any kind of progress. and now im incredibly frustrated and annoyed because ive wasted 2 valuable weeks and ive gone backwards in that time.

im having MASSIVE issues with spinning the ball. the problem i think is that im judging myself by ridiculous standards. i watch my videos on youtube, which were my best bowling on some of my best days, at the end of a summer where i spent many hours every week practicing. my instant thoughts are that i should be bowling better than that now, having made some improvements from my practices after i shot the videos, and figured out the direction i needed to move in.

the problem is that im out of touch, out of shape, and just not finding any rhythm. and im probably spinning the ball harder than i ever have before, but it just doesnt feel like it because im over-estimating the standards i was playing at before. it sucks, and i cant seem to get my head around it. i can sit here now and everything is clear, but when im bowling i just see red mist all the time because i cant get anything right.

the most annoying thing of all this evening was that i couldnt get the ball turning. i tried a variety of balls, old and brand new, cheap and expensive. nothing was happening, maybe they were deviating slightly, but not by much (i say that, but in comparison to all but one other spinner there tonight i was ripping it huge. enough to find edges if i could get my length consistent, but i was trying to bowl with maximum turn). so i decided it had to be the pitch, i was turning it more than anyone else. then the other leggie rolls up (hes a pace bowler primarily, and he had been bowling pace prior to that), and hes got it turning and bouncing like shane bloody warne!! and hes using the exact same ball that im using, only his is a few net sessions older. so i dont even have any excuses.

the only positives are a few deliveries that stuck in my mind. 2 were to a good left hander, i got loads of bounce and some good turn across a 5-6 ball spell. i got a few coming off his gloves, the rest getting him in the pads, very few were met with bat, and he was struggling big time. lefties are normally an issue for me, but tonight i was on top of them. and i bowled a couple of decent deliveries that i pitched right up under right handers noses and found edges. but nothing else good. when i didnt drag down my line and length were as good as theyve ever been. but no turn or drift. and my technique was shocking, i dont think i managed to bowl with the same action twice.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

wrists arent as important as hands. big hands are advantageous, more leverage. wrists arent about size, more strength and suppleness. you can make up for any physical deficiency with technique though. theres no reason why someone of any physical build cant bowl leg spin well. physique plays a small part, technique plays a much bigger part.

i had another club net session tonight. what a complete waste of time, i wish i hadnt bothered. i bowled about 3 balls all evening that were even remotely ok, nothing turned whatsoever (well, not by the standards i set myself), i wasnt spraying it around as much, i wasnt even getting it out of my fingers!!! i bowled more drag downs than i did good balls. then to top it all off i batted for 10 mins at the end, was utterly attrocious at that as well, and took a hit on my right wrist for my troubles and it hurts like hell and has a giant swollen bulge in the middle of it. excellent!

next week im sticking myself in the end net that nobody bats in, and im not leaving it until im ripping the ball 3 feet+. the problem with bowling at batsmen is that they are a distraction, and when your technique is in desperate need of work there is just no way to adjust it. youre bowling in a queue with maybe 4-6 other bowlers, so you get a ball every 2-3 mins. its just not focussed enough training to make any kind of progress. and now im incredibly frustrated and annoyed because ive wasted 2 valuable weeks and ive gone backwards in that time.

im having MASSIVE issues with spinning the ball. the problem i think is that im judging myself by ridiculous standards. i watch my videos on youtube, which were my best bowling on some of my best days, at the end of a summer where i spent many hours every week practicing. my instant thoughts are that i should be bowling better than that now, having made some improvements from my practices after i shot the videos, and figured out the direction i needed to move in.

the problem is that im out of touch, out of shape, and just not finding any rhythm. and im probably spinning the ball harder than i ever have before, but it just doesnt feel like it because im over-estimating the standards i was playing at before. it sucks, and i cant seem to get my head around it. i can sit here now and everything is clear, but when im bowling i just see red mist all the time because i cant get anything right.

the most annoying thing of all this evening was that i couldnt get the ball turning. i tried a variety of balls, old and brand new, cheap and expensive. nothing was happening, maybe they were deviating slightly, but not by much (i say that, but in comparison to all but one other spinner there tonight i was ripping it huge. enough to find edges if i could get my length consistent, but i was trying to bowl with maximum turn). so i decided it had to be the pitch, i was turning it more than anyone else. then the other leggie rolls up (hes a pace bowler primarily, and he had been bowling pace prior to that), and hes got it turning and bouncing like shane bloody warne!! and hes using the exact same ball that im using, only his is a few net sessions older. so i dont even have any excuses.

the only positives are a few deliveries that stuck in my mind. 2 were to a good left hander, i got loads of bounce and some good turn across a 5-6 ball spell. i got a few coming off his gloves, the rest getting him in the pads, very few were met with bat, and he was struggling big time. lefties are normally an issue for me, but tonight i was on top of them. and i bowled a couple of decent deliveries that i pitched right up under right handers noses and found edges. but nothing else good. when i didnt drag down my line and length were as good as theyve ever been. but no turn or drift. and my technique was shocking, i dont think i managed to bowl with the same action twice.

Yeah somedays if you cant find a rhythm you cant achieve much. But next time if it all falls into place you may surprise yourself how good you can bowl.

Bowling in a line-up is all set up for the batsmans benefit and it is hard to settle into your work. If you can find the time before the net session begins to bowl without the line-up, and perhaps without the batsman to interfere, may help you find some form?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I had a similar net session myself - Wrist Spin Bowling: Net Session No.4

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

what a complete waste of time, i wish i hadnt bothered.

If you're going to have a patch of bad form pre-season's the best time to have it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Many types of bowling here, but wrist spin is right at the bottom. He looks like a good leggie wih queensland? Queensland Cricket - First Innings - Beyond Basic Bowling

Only had a quick look but this looks good.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I had a similar net session myself - Wrist Spin Bowling: Net Session No.4

You blokes haven't been bowling enough over the winter, that's your problem. Not your fault, I know, but you are going to have to put in some long hours come spring.