Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim's right in what he says and I think this is the problem I've been having. Varying my length and knowing what length to bowl at seems to me to be the very essence of bowling at better batsmen. Last year at G&C with the captain being the best spinner ever at the club, I think he was easily able to suss out whether the bat was any good against spin and if there was any hint of a weakness he'd be telling you get it up under their noses. This year I seem to be bowling in exactly the same manner but with far more variation in speed and better turn, but I've been hit all over the park and it's looked as though I've been bowling the ball right where the batsmen have wanted it.

I've found recently that getting rid of the stumps helps me. If the stumps are there I bowl in order to hit the stumps and therefore there's less emphasis on bowling the ball to a particular length. So I've now taken to bowling onto a 12" x 12" rubber mat just looking to get the ball to turn off the mat or anywhere that's around it. The idea then being that I change the mat placing and land it on the mat irrespective of the length. This kind of negates the idea that there's a batsman there. I find because my target has been the stumps, when a batsman then takes his guard I'm bowling in a manner that would see the ball go on and hit the stumps and this seems to be on a length that hasn't been troubling the batsman? So the theory of bowling onto a small area and moving that area around seems to suggest that in doing this I'd be increasing my skills in being able to bowl the ball anywhere effectively? So if a batsman was taking me to task on what currently is my natural line and length I might in future be able to move that line and length and still maintian accuracy? What do you reckon?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

it sounds like you struggle in the same areas that i do. sometimes youll come up against a batsman who can just play you, seemingly no matter what you do. even if its just pinching singles. but sometimes they are smashing boundaries every ball, and you cant quite figure out how.

the key for me is length (assuming line is consistent, and not giving them width outside the stumps). too short and its easy pickings for any batsman. too full and youll cause a poor batsman problems, but a good batsman will thrive. to a poor batsman you can pitch it anywhere in a 4 yard spread and cause them issues. that range starts from about a foot in front of their batting crease. to a very good batsman though your range is more like 6"!! and that area is wherever you have to land the ball to get them front foot driving.

good batsmen will also punish you if you overpitch it! the leg spinners reflex is to err on the full side if you are being dispatched for boundaries. the problem ive found is that good players just find this even easier because they can take the pitch completely out of the equation. so then you drop it short, but how many of us can adjust our length by 6-12"? so short is then usually a couple of yards shorter, and then they smash that. and then you get into the mindset of thinking that whatever you do is going to get smashed, and its usually only an over or 2 before youre out of the attack. you basically miss the window in between where youll cause the batsman problems.

i find that i cant control my length well enough, so even though i know what is required now, actually implementing it is tough. so against a really good bat i might bowl him 10 deliveries. after 3 or 4 il realise what im up against and try to find my length. in the next 6 or 7 balls of trying i might find it twice. those deliveries will be the ones that he either defends on the front foot, or misses (or if you get lucky, youll get him out!!). however the captain will never see this, they only see the 2 or 3 big boundaries, and then youre off. so it just doesnt work for me.

my solution at present is to increase my pace and effort and look for a magical delivery. i figure its all or nothing. even if i manage a couple of dot balls, if they hit a couple of boundaries in between then im out of the attack anyway. i dont possess the ability to find that perfect length with enough regularity to back myself, so my only hope is to take their wicket. some days (most days!) it backfires, i go for 15 runs off the over, and thats my day finished (although with my fielding ever improving i still get in on the action there, so im not too disheartened when my bowling ends now). but if id tried to bowl line and length id probably have gone for the runs anyway.

on the days when it works, you bag yourself a magnificent wicket, and all of your team mates make comments like "youd be one hell of a bowler if you had some consistency". which for me is great, because ive only been playing for a year, so i can simply blame it on lack of practice and experience consistency is something i view as coming with time. Richie Benaud has written a short article in the News of the World today about Steve Smith, and he says that Bill O'Reilly gave him some advice over dinner at the start of his international career. then as he was walking out the door added "...and it will take you 4 years to get it right". bowling the occasional cherry now, should hopefully result in me being able to land them 90% of the time in a few years with enough practice and experience.

ultimately though the solution is to have the ability to land the ball within a 6" square, EVERY delivery. that square will move around depending on what shot you want the batsman to play, and how you set your plans. but you need to be able to land the ball on the money (and more than that, you need to be able to drift, dip, turn and bounce the ball as well, accuracy alone isnt enough). Shane Warne is (as always) the perfect example. how many batsmen ever dominated him? and of those who managed it for one match, how many ever managed to repeat it next game? Sachin Tendulkar is the only player i can think of who ever out-played Warne over the span of his career. and then youre talking about the greatest batsman of Warnes generation.

the key is being able to put the ball on the spot. if you cant do that, then a good batsman will find it easier to play you. ultimately we are talking about club players here though, so the very best players still have major flaws. but at the same time, we arent Shane Warne!!

so i think your accuracy practice will probably serve you well (but its equally as important that you dont sacrifice spin for accuracy). im definitely forming opinions against mindless practice without a batsman lately. it doesnt produce anything useful for match situations. all it is good for is technique development (which is important too). but you need probably an equal measure of both technique and match-craft. so i think for every hour you spend bowling at empty stumps, you need an hour or two with a decent batsman as well. did you ever organise any practice with that guy who you spoke with at your paddock the other week?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

You're right about the pace aspect and I think I've got that with this new out of the front of the hand Flipper (Alias the off-spinning flipper) YouTube - Flipper Variation No 3 The Off Spinning Flipper it's a ball that I wasn't fussed on at all when first explored, but then at the end of last summer I started to work with the top-spinning flipper and realised that had real potential as a faster ball and one that I could bowl very accurately. It then followed this year that with the mastery of the contorted wrist position to get the top-spinner working it wasn't that hard to turn the wrist a little to bowl out of the front of the hand. Whilst I acknowledge the fact that I'm blissfully unaware of whether the ball really does come out with the ball rotating to produce an off-spinner, the fact is whatever happens the ball is so much faster than my conventional wrist spin balls, more accurate and it drifts into the RH bat a lot and turns off the wicket mostly like a Leg-break, so I'm not complaining or analysing it too much as to how it leaves the hand. The thing is I'm causing problems with it and it's getting me wickets.

The asian bloke never came back but my captain from B&PCC joined me last Wednesday and is talking about doing so every other week and he's a wrist spinner and fair batsman, so will probably provide the challenge you've suggested and allow me to try any new approaches and theories. In addition B&PCC also have a net session on Wednesday night and they've said come down and have a bowl and I can do the same there?

I've watched the whole of Golden Eyes Richie Benuad stuff now and thought that the 4 year comment was pretty much spot on and the whole video is pretty spot with a few contentious points. But yeah - overall my biggest issue is knowing what length to bowl to what batsmen. Using Warne as a benchmark though I think is fairly pointless, 52mph balls that are flighted and still land 4.5 yards out from the stumps is a goal that I don't think I'd acheive in 40 years let alone 4 years!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the flipper might take wickets for its own reasons, but i dont think its necessarily a valid solution to good batsmen. its a variation, so if your stock ball is struggling and you switch to bowling flippers every ball then it might catch them off guard first ball, but after that theyll get used to it. if its faster and more consistent than your leg breaks then there is an argument for becoming a flipper bowler though. that would be quite unusual.

also in order for it to be faster it has to be a lot flatter in flight (the nature of the magnus effect) and most good batsmen pick up on that instantly. then they can just play it like a slow-medium pace yorker. the flipper gets its wickets through deception in length, as opposed to its pace. you bowl it flat to make the batsman think its a long hop drag down (which they will want to play off the back foot), but then it carries through full and skids off the pitch, leaving them all at sea for the LBW or bowled. so you have to give the impression that its not faster at all, the action has to remain as close to the leg break as possible, even though the flight differs.

the off spinning flipper works best when flighted a little more. personally i try to make it look as much like a leg break as i possibly can. then it turns the other way, and so its a substitute for a wrong'un. if you bowl it with mostly backspin then you can still use it like a flipper, fast and flat.

with regards pace, i bowled a flipper the other day that was amazingly quick. its hard to judge pace by eye, but i reckon it must have been in the low to mid 60's, compared to my stock delivery around 45mph or so. and it swang in from outside off stump, pitched on off, and smashed into middle stump halfway up (on a concrete pitch that normally bounces well over the stumps). if a batsman failed to pick up on that then theyd be in big trouble, but i think most decent batsmen would have picked it as being faster and played it on its merits.

the key to controlling good batsmen is simply to have control of your length. you want them coming forwards with a straight bat (although you dont mind them playing across the line on a good length, especially if youre pitching inline with the stumps), you dont want to give them any width, and you dont want them to be able to play you comfortably off the back foot. if you can control your length to 6" either side of "perfect" (12" total spread) then you can land the ball where you need to, and youll have reasonable control of any batsman. throw drift, dip, turn and bounce into the mix and thats where the wickets come from.

with regards Warnes pace, his stock deliveries hovered around 47-50mph. at a guess, your bowling is probably around 40-43mph from what ive seen of it. there are some decent county leg spinners that bowl around that pace and cause very good batsmen major problems. i dont think the lack of pace is necessarily a problem, however faster is always going to be harder to play. imagine if Shaun Tait could bowl 100mph leg spin with as much turn as Shane Warne, he would be completely unplayable its just about the reduction in reaction time. its hard enough to judge a leg spinners deliveries at 40mph, every extra mph just makes it that little bit tougher, plus added pace increases flight effects substantially. the key feature of Warnes bowling wasnt that it was faster, although in order for it to be that fast it had to dip hard, and thus was spun extremely hard to achieve that. but the key was that he had amazing control of his length (and overall accuracy, in both where it landed, and where it ended up), and superb tactics.

also, given the extra 10mph, Warne could naturally bowl slightly shorter than we can. the slower you bowl, the fuller it needs to be. so you have to target your length differently by probably a yard or so. i set my desired length by standing in the crease with my back foot 6" inside. then i take a big front stride and look where my bat would be if i was playing a drive. i then look to land the ball between that point, and a yard short of it. thats my "driving length". so the shortest i look to land it is 3 yards from the stumps. compare that to Warne and he tended to land the ball around 4-5 yards from the stumps, but he could do that because of his extra pace.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i played a T20 game yesterday. we had a 100% record this season until last week when we got comfortably beaten by one of our title rivals. we then lost again this week! both times ive been called up to bowl 1st or 2nd change with wickets required. as flattering as it is to be seen as the person to make the breakthrough (which i generally am), its left me with a dilemma both times.

do i absolutely go for it, trying to take the wicket, and with no regard for economy. or do i take some pace off the ball, keep things tight, and hope for a wicket for minimal runs, and play the team game?

idiot that i am, i decided both times to take pace off the ball and keep things tight. unfortunately the first game that didnt help because their batsmen were good and well set and went after me anyway. and the lack of pace and spin made a wicket unlikely, and i came away empty handed for about 19 runs off 2 overs.

then yesterday i did the same again, i kept it even tighter though, 2-0-13-0 of which 8 runs were off the only 2 bad balls i slipped in. our regular captain wasnt there, and one of the guys who plays club cricket for a decent side took on the job (for the first time). we also had a stand-in player who is meant to be a good wicket keeper, and he seemed alright. so i had a proper field setting, and a decent keeper. so i should have gone for it all guns blazing, but we batted poorly and they scored a lot of early runs, so i had no runs to play with at all. i leaked one poor boundary, and one average one, but aside from that bowled very tightly and had control. but the batsmen were decent again, and they never looked like getting out bowled or stumped, they were just measured and waiting for the bad ball knowing they had no pressure to score fast.

so ive come to the conclusion that the sole reason why i didnt take the wickets was because there wasnt enough pace on the ball. i was turning it fairly big yesterday on a very good length. a few deliveries got edged or hit the pads, the batsmen certainly werent able to play me on the good ones. but the lack of pace just meant they had too much time to think about it. i was probably bowling at about 38-40mph, as slow as i go really. in addition, ive learnt never to play a "team" game and try to contain runs again. im a leg spinner, i take wickets, economy is secondary, and trying to restrict scoring just spoils my natural game. and even when i bowl a containing spell, i still only get 2 overs, so i could just as well have gone for 40 runs but taken a wicket or 2 from my own perspective.

the extra 20% pace makes a hell of a difference to how difficult the ball is to play. if i could get myself upto 50mph with some consistency in line and length then i think most club players would have a hard time.

hopefully il get a game on Sunday this week with 5+ overs so i can have a proper go. yesterday was probably the best ive bowled without taking a wicket. it was a very similar performance to my 6-1-19-2 at the start of the season, and if id had 4 overs yesterday id have probably got a wicket. i only got 2 because the captain wanted to give some other guys a go, even though i bowled well enough to deserve 4. had i taken wickets i reckon id have continued because wickets would have given us a chance to win the match. we ended up losing it 3 overs later with 5 overs left!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

It's obviously worth having a go at trying the other approach and if you can produce your over-spun leg breaks there's the chance that you'll be getting some dip, so bowling faster does seem to be the logical conclusion. Whether in the short game format opting to completely ignore your average is wise I'm not so sure, it'll be fine I reckon if you accept that the following week you might not get to bowl if you leak runs badly wickets or no wickets, there's so many variables. It might be that you go for 20 or more off of 2 overs, but if you get the wicket of their best batsman, it may mean the bowlers that follow you return very low averages and a consistent stream of wickets and your 2-0-21-2 might be over-looked? I suppose it comes down to what goes on in the capatains head - I wonder if they have a train of thought along the lines of 'Jim's bowling - he's a wrist spinner I'll accept 7 an over with no wickets - other than that I'm going to have to consider his role in future matches'? I wonder if they set parameters of acceptability?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

It's obviously worth having a go at trying the other approach and if you can produce your over-spun leg breaks there's the chance that you'll be getting some dip, so bowling faster does seem to be the logical conclusion. Whether in the short game format opting to completely ignore your average is wise I'm not so sure, it'll be fine I reckon if you accept that the following week you might not get to bowl if you leak runs badly wickets or no wickets, there's so many variables. It might be that you go for 20 or more off of 2 overs, but if you get the wicket of their best batsman, it may mean the bowlers that follow you return very low averages and a consistent stream of wickets and your 2-0-21-2 might be over-looked? I suppose it comes down to what goes on in the capatains head - I wonder if they have a train of thought along the lines of 'Jim's bowling - he's a wrist spinner I'll accept 7 an over with no wickets - other than that I'm going to have to consider his role in future matches'? I wonder if they set parameters of acceptability?

aside from maybe 1 or 2 of the pace bowlers, nobody else has an economy any better than 6 or 7. going at 10 runs an over isnt really an issue if i take wickets, my economy is generally around 7-8.

the other week i had 3-0-30-1 and that was seen as a good performance, for example. so i can afford to be expensive and take wickets most of the time. if the game is tight enough that we cant afford to leak my runs and other bowlers are getting the job done, then generally i dont even get to bowl. although lately ive been taking so many wickets that they used me anyway. the last 2 weeks ive not taken any though (but neither has anyone else really) so i may get overlooked next week, but probably not. ive been up against good batsmen the last 2 weeks, with hardly any runs to defend, and needing wickets to keep us in the game. so ive let that dictate my style. next week il just revert to my natural game again and see what happens.

ive not had a call to play tomorrow, so looks like no cricket this weekend again. i havent played a sunday game in 3 weeks, and T20 gets boring after a while. i just want a 5+ over spell in a game to get some proper bowling in!

ive not even had any net practice against proper batsmen in months. my new club dont really train (the old club did pre-season, but nobody turns up mid-season), so the opportunity just isnt there. i need to find a batsman whos as keen to practice as i am.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

aside from maybe 1 or 2 of the pace bowlers, nobody else has an economy any better than 6 or 7. going at 10 runs an over isnt really an issue if i take wickets, my economy is generally around 7-8.

the other week i had 3-0-30-1 and that was seen as a good performance, for example. so i can afford to be expensive and take wickets most of the time. if the game is tight enough that we cant afford to leak my runs and other bowlers are getting the job done, then generally i dont even get to bowl. although lately ive been taking so many wickets that they used me anyway. the last 2 weeks ive not taken any though (but neither has anyone else really) so i may get overlooked next week, but probably not. ive been up against good batsmen the last 2 weeks, with hardly any runs to defend, and needing wickets to keep us in the game. so ive let that dictate my style. next week il just revert to my natural game again and see what happens.

ive not had a call to play tomorrow, so looks like no cricket this weekend again. i havent played a sunday game in 3 weeks, and T20 gets boring after a while. i just want a 5+ over spell in a game to get some proper bowling in!

ive not even had any net practice against proper batsmen in months. my new club dont really train (the old club did pre-season, but nobody turns up mid-season), so the opportunity just isnt there. i need to find a batsman whos as keen to practice as i am.

The way the game is developing ,from the top down, you would say that 6 or 7 an over is not bad a run rate if you get wickets at a good strike rate?

You just have to keep spinning hard and keeping the ball up for the batsman to drive, most of the time.

How hard do you spin it? My old man used to say "There is no use turning the handle this way or that way to spin a cricket ball, that wont open any doors. You have to twist it hard, like your'e opening a new jar of jam with the lid stuck on"

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i spin every delivery as hard as i can. the more effort i put into the delivery, the faster the pace and the harder its spun. so when i take pace off the ball to increase accuracy, it also takes spin off the ball.

the last few weeks ive altered my stock ball to a more sidespun delivery because im finding the seam with more consistency and thus turning it more frequently. i go through spells of having control of the full "loop" of seam angles and then losing it. im not bowling backspin very well at present, but ive got top spin around to side spin completely under control. it doesnt help that my action is constantly evolving. it might take me 2 or 3 years before im at a stage where i have a solid base action and dont need to mess with it.

it also doesnt help that weekend matches are hard to come by and i have no regular club net practice. whilst the weather is nice ive been trying to get down to the nets every evening i can, but colts teams play matches pretty much every day, and theres only one net lane, so when they are there the nets are in use, which means the nets are only free until about 5pm (and i cant really knock off work at 2pm every day lol). im going to have to start getting practice in first thing in the morning i think before i start work, if i get down there at 6am il get 2 or 3 hours in without any disturbances.

P.S. my strike rate is absolutely solid, it has fluctuated between 15 and 19 all season, but never moved outside of that range. my season figures so far are:

overall:
ave = 22.53
s/r = 19.53
economy = 6.92

40+ over:
ave = 54.67
s/r = 53.66
economy = 6.11

T20:
ave = 14.50
s/r = 11.00
economy = 7.91

so in T20 im doing absolutely fine. i generally need 2 overs to make a breakthrough, but if i get 3 overs then i tend to take 2 or 3 wickets, whereas when i only get 2 overs i often dont take any wickets. so the figures are a little skewed. i work best in 3-4 over spells in T20. it takes me a while to get going normally.

my Sunday cricket figures are pretty awful, but they are misleading due to 2 poor matches, and 1 unlucky one. the 2 poor matches i wound up bowling at one very good batsmen in each. one of them was a Saturday first XI player wanting some practice (and their first XI plays at a very high level), and the other was the one that i got into a sledging match with and i lost my head. i got dropped once in that game, and twice in the 3rd game. with the extra 3 wickets my figures would be substantially improved (both average and strike rate would then be around 27). ive only actually taken 3 wickets in 5 Sunday 40+ over matches this season!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i played another T20 game last night, the final league game of the season, there is just the cup final next week and then i think that will be all my T20 games for the season done.

i decided to bowl at full effort, or close to it. no containment this week, we were bowling first anyway so there was no specific need to be economical. my first over was pretty awful, i didnt really find my line and length, i bowled a couple of wayward balls, but was mostly just unlucky. i got hit for a 4 at fine leg off a full toss, but the fielder probably could have been faster and stopped it with a dive. i got hit for a 4 through cover and the fielder made a complete mess of it and it should never have gone for 4. and i got edged over the head of slip which on another day might have been at catching height. all in, the first over went for 14 runs. one of the batsmen hit 3 fours in a row off me and probably fancied his chances at that point.

2nd over however i found my rhythm from the outset. i bowled 5 perfect deliveries, and 1 that was too leg side but the batsman found the fielder instead of the boundary. they hit me for 2 singles, but the 4 that werent hit beat the bat comfortably and if it wasnt for ridiculous bounce off the pitch would have hit the stumps 3 out of 4 times. the other one missed off stump by inches. i was gutted not to have got a wicket with that over. but i got another for my troubles.

so my 3rd (and final) over was the same again. i started with 2 leg breaks, i was bowling overspun leg breaks to begin with, but because of the bounce i changed to sidespun in my 2nd over. the first beat the bat comfortably and narrowly missed off stump. the second was well outside leg but turned in big and hit the batsman on the pad, it was very close to bowling him behind his legs though!! he got a leg bye off it though. so then i tried a backspun leg break to try and negate the bounce, and it worked but missed the stumps again. i was beating the bat with literally every ball. so i tried it again, but i bowled a wide and they ran one. i finished the over with a flipper and an off spun flipper. the batsman only just got bat on the flipper, which turned in at him a little, and edged it, so i figured id end with an off spun flipper. i landed it well with a bit of extra flight, and again he just got bat on it to defend it. 2 runs off the over again though.

so i ended up 3-0-18-0, which is one of my best economy rates in T20. but its by far the best ive ever bowled without taking a wicket. in fact the last 2 overs may even be the best ive ever bowled, i was denied wickets by bounce and turn, both of which were unpredictable. its just a shame my first over was so loose, because after that the next 2 went for 4 runs!

definitely very encouraging signs. yesterday was extremely windy (gusty rather than predictable though) and the pitch had been soaked with heavy rain all day prior to the match. so not easy leg spin conditions at all. hopefully il get a game at the weekend and the weather will be nice because i might get a chance to take some wickets for the first time this month!! im on a 3 match drought now.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im just watching Steve Smith bowling for Australia against Pakistan in their test match on Sky.

hes bowling fairly well, his first spell in test cricket. Pakistan are 88-1 and Smith has the only wicket so far, caught at a sort of short mid-wicket position when the batsman tried to slog him and made a mess of it.

he certainly gives the ball a good rip. the commentators have just been talking about him needing to spin the ball harder to get more turn, but on the slow-mo shots you can see hes spinning it hard enough already, hes just not finding the seam, and his seam is usually slightly scrambled. its turning nicely enough, not huge but as much as it needs to. and hes getting lots of drift on occasion.

he looks a good prospect, hes got a really quirky action that looks quite awkward with all his arm movements in his approach. not as smooth and pleasing on the eye as Shane Warnes action. but it looks effective enough. as an Englishman im hoping he doesnt improve too much before the winter, because if he progresses a bit then he might play against England, and i could see him causing us problems.

Shane Warne has just come back on to the commentary for the first time since Smith started his spell, so it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Kaneria and Afridi have both bowled for Pakistan, and Kaneria is bowling the best ive ever seen from him. much better than the rubbish he bowls for Essex in T20 games!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im just watching Steve Smith bowling for Australia against Pakistan in their test match on Sky.

hes bowling fairly well, his first spell in test cricket. Pakistan are 88-1 and Smith has the only wicket so far, caught at a sort of short mid-wicket position when the batsman tried to slog him and made a mess of it.

he certainly gives the ball a good rip. the commentators have just been talking about him needing to spin the ball harder to get more turn, but on the slow-mo shots you can see hes spinning it hard enough already, hes just not finding the seam, and his seam is usually slightly scrambled. its turning nicely enough, not huge but as much as it needs to. and hes getting lots of drift on occasion.

he looks a good prospect, hes got a really quirky action that looks quite awkward with all his arm movements in his approach. not as smooth and pleasing on the eye as Shane Warnes action. but it looks effective enough. as an Englishman im hoping he doesnt improve too much before the winter, because if he progresses a bit then he might play against England, and i could see him causing us problems.

Shane Warne has just come back on to the commentary for the first time since Smith started his spell, so it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Kaneria and Afridi have both bowled for Pakistan, and Kaneria is bowling the best ive ever seen from him. much better than the rubbish he bowls for Essex in T20 games!!

I'm off there tomorrow to go and watch it with my lads, just watching the highlights on-line just to get a feel for the game and how it's poised.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

ive spent a lot of time thinking about the effect of pace on leg spin bowling over the last year, and its fairly clear when watching international standard leg spinners troubling batsmen that their added pace is basically the only difference between their bowling and mine (based on my best deliveries, rather than the poor ones i regularly bowl). i can spin the ball as hard as most, i can get as much drift and turn, yet batsmen will hit me more easily. obviously accuracy and consistency are my biggest weaknesses, i dont land the ball on the money every time, so the ones that arent perfect get hit for runs. but you cant help thinking that a stock Shane Warne delivery would trouble any club batsman, yet my best deliveries are usually defendable by a good batsman.

so i had some spare time yesterday evening to do some rather geeky maths on how the drag affects the speed of the ball over 17 yards or so before it bounces. ive worked out that it slows the ball down by about 2-3%, but any physicists feel free to check that for yourselves. i expected the figure to be a lot higher than that, but it seems i had also miscalculated my average speed in flight which i thought was 35mph, but in fact is more like 41-43mph.

i then looked back at my old videos and worked out the time it takes for the ball to travel from hand to pitch, based on the principle that the forward velocity doesnt change by anything other than basic drag. i factored in the 2-3% loss and my stock leg breaks from my most recent videos work out at about 42-44mph. which makes sense to me as my flight is very similar (maybe slightly more flighted) to the pros that i see on television and i spin the ball hard enough to get just as much dip as they do.

i reckon ive increased my pace slightly since my last videos earlier this year. so it stands to reason that my stock ball (in nets) should be somewhere around 45-47mph with an effort ball around 50mph. in match situations i take pace off the ball for some reason without intentionally doing so. i think its probably because it takes me a fair while in the nets to find my line and length at full effort, whereas i dont have that time in matches so im forced to ease off a little. i reckon in matches its more like 38-40mph, and hence easier to play.

so my next target is to get my match speed upto full net speed around 47mph and still land the ball in decent areas 5 out of 6 times. then i reckon il be much more productive in matches. at my slower 40'ish mph this week i beat the bat about 8 times in 12 balls (excluding my poor first over, just by landing it in the right areas every time. im convinced that all the proper runs i go for (e.g. not streaky edges) are as a result of poor line and/or length, as opposed to lack of spin or pace, because it would seem i have both in plentiful proportions for a club leggie.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm off there tomorrow to go and watch it with my lads, just watching the highlights on-line just to get a feel for the game and how it's poised.

you had a good day for watching spin! 8 wickets today, 2 for Smith. unfortunately for Smith, North was bowling well and stole most of his overs. if North hadnt made any breakthroughs i think Smith would have bowled for most of the day, i was certainly hoping so as i had the game on TV in the background. when he did bowl it looked pretty good, he definitely looks like a prospect given his age and lack of experience, and what hes already capable of.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i then looked back at my old videos and worked out the time it takes for the ball to travel from hand to pitch, based on the principle that the forward velocity doesnt change by anything other than basic drag. i factored in the 2-3% loss and my stock leg breaks from my most recent videos work out at about 42-44mph. which makes sense to me as my flight is very similar (maybe slightly more flighted) to the pros that i see on television and i spin the ball hard enough to get just as much dip as they do.

i reckon ive increased my pace slightly since my last videos earlier this year. so it stands to reason that my stock ball (in nets) should be somewhere around 45-47mph with an effort ball around 50mph. in match situations i take pace off the ball for some reason without intentionally doing so. i think its probably because it takes me a fair while in the nets to find my line and length at full effort, whereas i dont have that time in matches so im forced to ease off a little. i reckon in matches its more like 38-40mph, and hence easier to play.

Jim, could you upload the videos at normal speed along with your estimates on the speed so that I get an idea of the pace you are talking about? Elevated cameras in international games completely skew any perception of pace on the ball

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim, could you upload the videos at normal speed along with your estimates on the speed so that I get an idea of the pace you are talking about? Elevated cameras in international games completely skew any perception of pace on the ball

YouTube - Untitled.mp4

this one is at about 40mph (the video looks sped up, but i can assure you this is at normal speed, i think its just because im so used to watching myself in slow-mo that it looks strange at full speed). it pitches a bit short but you get the idea. looking through my videos i reckon my average pace is actually still more like 38-40mph. there arent that many where im over the 40mph mark. this video is 5 months old though so i reckon my pace has increased a fair bit since then. maybe more like 44-45mph though at full effort, not 47-50mph.

i had a long practice today and im still dropping the ball short when i try to bowl my flat trajectory. i think thats why in matches when i flight it up i get wickets. because the flighted ones land on the right length, the ones that i think are perfect are actually a yard or 2 short. it didnt help that i had a 40mph headwind today though lol.

ive got a match on Sunday, so its a chance to have a proper bowl! the wind was so severe today that at one point i bowled seam instead just to kill some time hoping the wind would die down (which it did). i bowled seam up for about 20 mins and im actually pretty rapid. it makes sense, im tall, long arms, long legs, strong shoulders, front-on action. my physique is far better suited to pace bowling than leg spin. i was also surprisingly accurate, and swinging the ball huge, but it was wind assisted so probably no swing and just wind. but im going to have to bowl a few deliveries at a batsman at some point just out of curiousity. i have no intentions of going to the dark side, ive never even practiced seam before, i was just amazed how naturally it came to me. i reckon i was bowling at least 70mph but thats just a guess based on how fast my leg spin is.

bizarrely, and possibly coincidentally, after i went back to leg spin i was a lot more accurate for the first few "overs". so Daves previous ponderings about whether bowling straight can assist in accuracy for leg spin may hold water. on the other hand i was running in flat out over a 12 pace run up, so im not really sure that the seam bowling bears any relevance whatsoever to my leg spin action!! it was probably just the fact id taken a break from leg spin for 20 mins and let the wind speed drop a bit.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

YouTube - Untitled.mp4

this one is at about 40mph (the video looks sped up, but i can assure you this is at normal speed, i think its just because im so used to watching myself in slow-mo that it looks strange at full speed). it pitches a bit short but you get the idea. looking through my videos i reckon my average pace is actually still more like 38-40mph. there arent that many where im over the 40mph mark. this video is 5 months old though so i reckon my pace has increased a fair bit since then. maybe more like 44-45mph though at full effort, not 47-50mph.

i had a long practice today and im still dropping the ball short when i try to bowl my flat trajectory. i think thats why in matches when i flight it up i get wickets. because the flighted ones land on the right length, the ones that i think are perfect are actually a yard or 2 short. it didnt help that i had a 40mph headwind today though lol.

ive got a match on Sunday, so its a chance to have a proper bowl! the wind was so severe today that at one point i bowled seam instead just to kill some time hoping the wind would die down (which it did). i bowled seam up for about 20 mins and im actually pretty rapid. it makes sense, im tall, long arms, long legs, strong shoulders, front-on action. my physique is far better suited to pace bowling than leg spin. i was also surprisingly accurate, and swinging the ball huge, but it was wind assisted so probably no swing and just wind. but im going to have to bowl a few deliveries at a batsman at some point just out of curiousity. i have no intentions of going to the dark side, ive never even practiced seam before, i was just amazed how naturally it came to me. i reckon i was bowling at least 70mph but thats just a guess based on how fast my leg spin is.

bizarrely, and possibly coincidentally, after i went back to leg spin i was a lot more accurate for the first few "overs". so Daves previous ponderings about whether bowling straight can assist in accuracy for leg spin may hold water. on the other hand i was running in flat out over a 12 pace run up, so im not really sure that the seam bowling bears any relevance whatsoever to my leg spin action!! it was probably just the fact id taken a break from leg spin for 20 mins and let the wind speed drop a bit.

Jesus! 70mph for a club fast bowler is amazingly fast and with swing!

Marcus North was bowling what looked really slow on Friday when he took those wickets, but viewing them on the internet they seem to be in the + 45mph region. Even though they're at this speed he was still flighting the ball, so there was obviously a fair bit of top spin on his deliveries to get that dip required to land the ball where it was going? I reckon if you can get your standard Leg Break up around the mid 40's with your over-spin, you're going to make massive headway with your bowling. If the 45mph then is comfortable to bowl and comes out easy, your 'Effort' ball which might have less turn but still with your over-spin you're going to have a devastating impact on the opposition!?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jesus! 70mph for a club fast bowler is amazingly fast and with swing!

Marcus North was bowling what looked really slow on Friday when he took those wickets, but viewing them on the internet they seem to be in the + 45mph region. Even though they're at this speed he was still flighting the ball, so there was obviously a fair bit of top spin on his deliveries to get that dip required to land the ball where it was going? I reckon if you can get your standard Leg Break up around the mid 40's with your over-spin, you're going to make massive headway with your bowling. If the 45mph then is comfortable to bowl and comes out easy, your 'Effort' ball which might have less turn but still with your over-spin you're going to have a devastating impact on the opposition!?

im pretty sure now that i wasnt bowling at anywhere near 70mph. i found out yesterday that the fastest bowler at my club got clocked on the speed gun a couple of weeks ago in the same nets at 65mph into a similar headwind. theres no way im that fast. i was just guessing based on my perception of speed, which is clearly a long way off lol. next time i take my camera up the nets though il get some slow motion footage of my seam attempts just to see how fast it is. ive mastered how to accurately calculate speed off the video, the only thing i need to sort out is length as you need to know accurately where the ball pitches. but i can do that by putting some tape down every 12" in the landing zone.

but back to proper bowling (leg spin) - ive made a significant development in the last week in terms of flight and length. bearing in mind how hard i spin the ball, and the dip that generates, even at 40mph or so i still have to float the ball in order to land it on a good length. ive been bowling 2-3 yards too short the entire season, and ive only just realised it the past couple of weeks. my flat flight drops the ball short, it looks impressive, but it doesnt trouble batsmen (or at least shouldnt, but il get to that in a minute).

to bowl with the flat flight you have to be up in the high 40's and more. i also reckon that an average Shane Warne delivery is a lot more flighted than it looks from an elevated camera. if you watch his masterclass videos with the camera at ground level then you can see that when hes bowling his slow demonstrations he flights it LOADS, thats like how your average club leggie has to flight the ball to reach a length. when he bowls his proper balls at the end (probably at about 45mph) its still well flighted. the ball goes 3 feet above his head at the peak of its flight, which is nicely demonstrated by the trace they put on the balls so you can see the exact trajectory.

so when youre watching someone like Marcus North bowling for Australia at 45mph, and youre thinking "wow this guy is slow, look how loopy it is", i think that is just a perception thing. because when you watch international spin bowlers on TV you cant see how much they loop the ball up. when you see them in the flesh you can then get a better idea of what their deliveries really look like.

Shane Warnes stock delivery was around 47-50mph, and in order to bowl at that speed he still had to flight the ball a fair amount. its only when you watch someone like Shahid Afridi bowling 60+ mph "leg breaks" that you see him bowling them flat.

i reckon my current stock speed is still around 37-40mph in match situations. in nets its up around probably 42-44mph because i try a lot harder. the problem then is that i only land 1 in 20 balls where i want it, so in matches i have to slow things down a bit and find some consistency. ultimately the only way im getting faster is with more powerful shoulders, i reckon mid-40's is as fast i can get with my current strength without having to over-exert myself in my approach, which results in no consistency at all.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i played a 40 over game yesterday. we played at Basingstokes ground, May's Bounty, which is being used by Hampshire for a 4-day county match against Durham in a few weeks time. the pitches there are incredible, theyve got a full time county-standard groundsman, its an awesome place to play.

we played on the second pitch, which is on another ground out the back. its still maintained to the same standards, and in fact some people reckon the pitch out the back is actually the better of the 2, but the pavillion is out front, so thats the main one. the wicket was incredible, i make no exaggeration when i say it looked like a day 1 pitch at Lords. it was as hard as concrete, perfectly flat, perfect grass structure. as close to a professional pitch as im ever likely to play on. so i figured it would be an excellent test of how well i spin the ball!!

we batted first and fell well short of a good total. all out for 134 after 28 overs. i batted at number 9, the first ball was short and i tried to pull it but mistimed it and played it straight, but along the ground. they misfielded it so i got off strike with a single. i stayed at the non-strikers end so i faced the next over. first ball was at my legs, so i got to use my favourite shot, the sweep! which i executed to perfection for a lovely 4. next ball was the same, so i played it again, lofted it a bit but cleared the infield for what i thought was a 4, but only got 2. then i played a couple of streaky pull shots that i top edged safe for runs. i was going reasonably well, but then i got a full toss, my eyes lit up, and i tried to slog it. but ended up edging it onto my stumps. out for 10, from 10 deliveries. i was trying to play a slow and sensible game, but the bowlers just kept serving up runs and i couldnt help myself.

anyway, i came onto bowl first change. our 2 opening seamers had gone for 55 runs off 10 overs for no wickets. their opener looked outstanding, every shot was driven along the ground or defended, nothing loose. only the occasional tuck off his legs when the bowlers strayed. he played everything off side. my first 2 overs were pretty awful, the usual mixture of wides and long hops. the umpire at my end (we had proper umpires!! for a sunday friendly!) used to bowl a bit of leg spin and he was giving me advice whilst i was bowling!! it was actually quite off putting, but i heeded one bit of advice and went round the wicket. i found some rhythm, it worked, but i didnt see myself getting a wicket from there so i went back over.

my 3rd, 4th and 5th overs were then fairly good, just the occasional bad ball. i was troubling both batsmen, even the really good one. when i landed the ball where i wanted it, it was unplayable. he edged a few, missed a few. then the bowler at the other end got their number 2 out. in my 4th over i got my breakthrough taking their number 3 batsman LBW with a long hop that didnt turn!! the thing was, i was turning the ball consistently every delivery, not huge, but more than enough to beat the edge. from about leg stump turning outside off. so he must have figured the short straight one at middle stump would be an easy cut shot, but it skidded through and hit his back leg. and having an ex-leggie as your umpire always helps on LBW's!! it was plum though.

i then bowled a wide. more dots. then last ball of the over i threw in a zooter. it landed absolutely on the money with pure backspin, stayed slow and low off the pitch, the batsman totally mistimed it and played almost over the top of it, and it glanced the toe of his bat. about 2mm away from a clean bowled, and what would have been one of my best ever wickets. if i hadnt bowled that wide id have had a wicket maiden. gutted.

in the end my figures were 5-0-29-1. not the greatest, but deceptively reassuring. i went for pretty much the same runs, give or take 1 or 2, as the opening seamers went for off 5 overs. i was bowling at the same batsmen, and i also got a wicket. i bowled 8 wides. and i bowled 2 really awful deliveries (one was a full toss attempted flipper) that went for 4. you take those 16 runs out of the equation, plus a couple of sloppy singles, and my decent deliveries only went for 11 runs. also the opening bowlers (who are saturday league players) went for genuine runs, whereas i went for lots of wides. so in terms of actual runs i didnt do badly. we got comfortably beaten in about 25 overs. they were about 125-2, and then a couple of our bowlers had purple patches and then ended up 135-6!!

all i need to do is find some consistency and my bowling will be very good. when i land the ball as i want it, it causes even very good batsmen problems. i can turn the ball plenty on a "professional" pitch, a couple of my best deliveries turned very big, from outside leg stump to well outside off. i just need to solidify my action.

i also missed a trick yesterday with my tactics. its easy to analyse these things in hindsight, especially when all of my focus on the pitch was in finding my line and length. but their opener played everything off side, he wanted the ball on his off stump, and i served it up. when i bowled a few loose deliveries down leg side just past his pads (not wides) he either left them or couldnt get bat on them, and a couple of them were VERY close to his stumps. if i had bowled around the wicket at him, there was a lovely roughed up footmark to bowl into. had i got one to turn a bit bigger i reckon i could have bowled him behind his legs. it didnt occur to me at the time though, as i was causing him more problems past his outside edge.

i also desperately need a wrong'un. not really for taking wickets, but just for a mental advantage. if i could get one to turn back in early on then it would plant that seed of doubt in the batsmans mind. id probably only use it once just for that purpose. il have to work on it a bit more i think.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im pretty sure now that i wasnt bowling at anywhere near 70mph. i found out yesterday that the fastest bowler at my club got clocked on the speed gun a couple of weeks ago in the same nets at 65mph into a similar headwind. theres no way im that fast. i was just guessing based on my perception of speed, which is clearly a long way off lol. next time i take my camera up the nets though il get some slow motion footage of my seam attempts just to see how fast it is. ive mastered how to accurately calculate speed off the video, the only thing i need to sort out is length as you need to know accurately where the ball pitches. but i can do that by putting some tape down every 12" in the landing zone.

but back to proper bowling (leg spin) - ive made a significant development in the last week in terms of flight and length. bearing in mind how hard i spin the ball, and the dip that generates, even at 40mph or so i still have to float the ball in order to land it on a good length. ive been bowling 2-3 yards too short the entire season, and ive only just realised it the past couple of weeks. my flat flight drops the ball short, it looks impressive, but it doesnt trouble batsmen (or at least shouldnt, but il get to that in a minute).

to bowl with the flat flight you have to be up in the high 40's and more. i also reckon that an average Shane Warne delivery is a lot more flighted than it looks from an elevated camera. if you watch his masterclass videos with the camera at ground level then you can see that when hes bowling his slow demonstrations he flights it LOADS, thats like how your average club leggie has to flight the ball to reach a length. when he bowls his proper balls at the end (probably at about 45mph) its still well flighted. the ball goes 3 feet above his head at the peak of its flight, which is nicely demonstrated by the trace they put on the balls so you can see the exact trajectory.

so when youre watching someone like Marcus North bowling for Australia at 45mph, and youre thinking "wow this guy is slow, look how loopy it is", i think that is just a perception thing. because when you watch international spin bowlers on TV you cant see how much they loop the ball up. when you see them in the flesh you can then get a better idea of what their deliveries really look like.

Shane Warnes stock delivery was around 47-50mph, and in order to bowl at that speed he still had to flight the ball a fair amount. its only when you watch someone like Shahid Afridi bowling 60+ mph "leg breaks" that you see him bowling them flat.

i reckon my current stock speed is still around 37-40mph in match situations. in nets its up around probably 42-44mph because i try a lot harder. the problem then is that i only land 1 in 20 balls where i want it, so in matches i have to slow things down a bit and find some consistency. ultimately the only way im getting faster is with more powerful shoulders, i reckon mid-40's is as fast i can get with my current strength without having to over-exert myself in my approach, which results in no consistency at all.

Yeah I doubted that you were that fast, a bloke in his late 20's at my club with some of the best pace bowling figures in the clubs history bowled in the nets in the winter and was going for it and was only recording 65mph and that looked fast!