Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Do they though? (Practice every day for hours on end) I've asked a few people this and as yet still haven't had a definitive answer, there was an article in one of the free newspapers a couple of days ago 'A day in the life of Stuart Broad' and it didn't sound that intensive, all though he was talking about a day during a test match. The only practice he seemed to do was for about 3/4 of an hour before breakfast - batting and then prior to the match in the nets on one of the squares in the middle for 15 minutes. But then all he does is bowl straight so maybe it's not so much of an issue for the quicks?

pace bowlers cant really bowl for long spells though for physical reasons. so you wouldnt really expect them to be bowling 3 or 4 hours a day, although they might well do it when they dont have matches for a while. also England are obsessed with fitness training, so Broad probably spends most of his time in the gym.

with a spinner though, when youve got a match youd expect them to spend at least 30 mins in the nets prior to each day to get loose and find some rhythm. and youd think that in between matches theyd be training every day for at least half the day. they are required nowadays to spend a lot of time in the gym on strength and cardio, as well as time practicing fielding, and batting. but youd think at least 15-20 hours a week would be spent practicing bowling?

if i was a pro id be annoyed if i couldnt spend that much time bowling. the only way to improve is to bowl.

if on the other hand Kaneria hardly practises, and gets most of his bowling in matches, then its no surprise that hes inconsistent. when you hear the likes of Benaud and Warne talking about leg spin, they constantly reiterate how many thousands of hours it took them to perfect certain aspects.

i try to get two 2-3 hour practice sessions in per week during summer at the minimum. with matches as well, i probably bowl 4-6 hours per week on average. which isnt really enough, but time isnt that easy to come by, and facilities and weather dont help things. in winter that practice should be intensified, if youre a non-international pro then youd think theyd be practicing every day (internationals are obviously playing matches all year round), whereas for me its impossible because if the weather is bad its too expensive to pay to use indoor facilities regularly.

maybe thats a factor in Australia having the most success in producing leggies. more consistent weather, as well as it being a lot hotter in general (thus hard dry pitches), means leg spinners get a lot more practice time as well as more ideal conditions. its hard to practice leg spin in an English winter. some of my YouTube videos with snowflakes falling across the screen are proof of that

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Kaneria is just bowling far too short today. hes getting smashed around the park, and seems completely clueless as to why. its absolutely unbelievable that the guy has over 250 test wickets, when you hear him talking about his bowling and watch his tactics, and think that the guy just has absolutely no clue what hes doing!

i guess theres no substitute for natural talent. when he lands the ball right hes as good as anyone. and the occasional good delivery/spell digs him out of holes. he certainly doesnt have any kind of tactical knowledge.

i dont think it helps that he plays so little test cricket and so much T20. his natural line is slightly short on off stump. which works ok in T20, batsmen play off the back foot and struggle to hit you big, and ultimately 6 singles an over arent enough to win matches normally. in a test match they are just happy to take singles here and there to slightly short bowling, and then capitalise on anything awful.

it baffles me how professionals can so blatantly overlook the simple fundamentals of their craft. even BATSMEN have given me coaching advice in the past of "pitch it up, you want the batsman driving forwards". which is absolutely true. Kaneria seems to have forgotten it though.

one other thing that ive been pondering is whether there is a universal "ideal speed" for leg spin. the physics of the ball mean that it can only dip so much from spin, and the pitch is a constant length. thus in order to hit the perfect spot every leggie has to bowl at a similar pace and flight. Warne hit that spot 95% or more of the time at around 48mph. so when Kaneria is darting the ball in at 55mph you have to ask yourself if that can ever work properly. when he tries to pitch it up he ends up bowling full tosses, he cant flight the ball at that speed.

and to highlight how well Nasser Hussain knows leg spin (you could clearly tell he was an expert when facing it ), hes just said "Kaneria is bowling too slowly, he needs to bowl faster, its a slow pitch to begin with, and hes just flighting it up there". he must be watching a different match to me.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Kaneria is just bowling far too short today. hes getting smashed around the park, and seems completely clueless as to why. its absolutely unbelievable that the guy has over 250 test wickets, when you hear him talking about his bowling and watch his tactics, and think that the guy just has absolutely no clue what hes doing!

i guess theres no substitute for natural talent. when he lands the ball right hes as good as anyone. and the occasional good delivery/spell digs him out of holes. he certainly doesnt have any kind of tactical knowledge.

i dont think it helps that he plays so little test cricket and so much T20. his natural line is slightly short on off stump. which works ok in T20, batsmen play off the back foot and struggle to hit you big, and ultimately 6 singles an over arent enough to win matches normally. in a test match they are just happy to take singles here and there to slightly short bowling, and then capitalise on anything awful.

it baffles me how professionals can so blatantly overlook the simple fundamentals of their craft. even BATSMEN have given me coaching advice in the past of "pitch it up, you want the batsman driving forwards". which is absolutely true. Kaneria seems to have forgotten it though.

one other thing that ive been pondering is whether there is a universal "ideal speed" for leg spin. the physics of the ball mean that it can only dip so much from spin, and the pitch is a constant length. thus in order to hit the perfect spot every leggie has to bowl at a similar pace and flight. Warne hit that spot 95% or more of the time at around 48mph. so when Kaneria is darting the ball in at 55mph you have to ask yourself if that can ever work properly. when he tries to pitch it up he ends up bowling full tosses, he cant flight the ball at that speed.

and to highlight how well Nasser Hussain knows leg spin (you could clearly tell he was an expert when facing it ), hes just said "Kaneria is bowling too slowly, he needs to bowl faster, its a slow pitch to begin with, and hes just flighting it up there". he must be watching a different match to me.

"Skull" O'Keefe made the call here last summer that Kaneria is like Kumble, but without the accuracy. I think he is one of these blokes that came up with his own method and doesn't take advice from anyone. But he has a load of wickets. He started from the wrong end here at the SCG with the wind on a bright super clear morning and got smashed but once the cloud rolled in and he swapped ends and bowled into the wind he was fantastic.


he did have a net session lined up with warne last season but it was called off after intervention from officials concerned about match fixing problems. It was a strange incident that pissed warnie off at the time.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

we had an end of season celebration for the T20 team i played for this season, having won the cup, but missed out on the league by 1 win! one of the guys created a stats sheet of all of the bowling and batting figures for the season which was cool, and then there were awards based on most wickets, highest batting average, and moment of the season.

if i didnt feel hard done by having been dropped for the cup final for no reason other than not being a pub regular, then i feel even more hard done by for missing out on being leading wicket taker because of a counting error!!!

i apparently took 10 wickets in 21 overs for 152 runs at an average of 15.2 and a strike rate of 12.6 according to the scorebook, which for our bowling is often filled in by the opposition players, who at some point obviously didnt ask for my name. i kept my own records to much higher accuracy, and i actually took 12 wickets in 25 overs, for 192 runs at an average of 16.0 and a strike rate of 12.5.

certainly not figures to really shout about, i was fairly expensive on runs. but its T20, my first ever games in the T20 format, and i bowled a LOT of extras, 38 in fact.

the official club figures for wicket takers though had me in joint 3rd place with 10 wickets (in less overs than the other guy on 10). 2nd place had 11 wickets in 14.1 more overs, and 1st place had 12 wickets in 19 more overs!! so it is fairly clear that had i been given the overs i probably deserved, id have easily been leading wicket taker anyway. add to this that in one game i took 3 wickets in 2 overs, and demolished their middle order, but we were winning so comfortably that the captain took me off to give other guys a chance when i was very confident of taking their last 2 wickets for a 5-for. those are all reasons to feel hard done by in the stats, in addition to missing the final where i might well have taken another wicket!

but the fact that the number of wickets was counted wrong means that i actually would have been joint leading wicket taker, in far fewer overs than my rival. so i would have won. gutted.

at least i know myself that in my first season of T20, bowling leg spin as opposed to the medium pace of all those above me, that i was the most effective wicket taker in the team. despite being horrendously inconsistent, and leaking quite a lot of runs.

my batting figures were pretty dismal (and also incorrect in the stats, but in my favour this time). 36 runs in 8 innings at an average of 6.0, the 10th best figures in the team, justifying my batting position at 8+ lol. my batting has improved significantly during that time though, next season id be targeting an average of 20+ if i play.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

"Skull" O'Keefe made the call here last summer that Kaneria is like Kumble, but without the accuracy. I think he is one of these blokes that came up with his own method and doesn't take advice from anyone. But he has a load of wickets. He started from the wrong end here at the SCG with the wind on a bright super clear morning and got smashed but once the cloud rolled in and he swapped ends and bowled into the wind he was fantastic.


he did have a net session lined up with warne last season but it was called off after intervention from officials concerned about match fixing problems. It was a strange incident that pissed warnie off at the time.

it definitely looks that way, as though he just sticks with what works for him. and to be fair, its got him 260 odd wickets, so it clearly works. its just that he probably has the talent to have significantly more wickets than that. he just has no idea tactically.

you listen to Shane Warne talk tactics and hes as wise as any international captain, and arguably could have been the Australian captain, and i think he would have done a fantastic job of it. but Kaneria is nothing like that at all. the commentators were saying yesterday that the Pakistan side has so little test experience that Kaneria is actually the most senior player, by 10 tests!! yet he has zero input into the team organisation or tactics. you see him in the field just stood somewhere in the deep minding his own business. compare that to Warne, and he would be full of suggestions for his captain, and if the team were ever in a bind, he'd be one of the first approaching his captains with ideas, or putting his hand up to bowl and make a breakthrough.

its just amazing that such a player can be playing at such a high level, and with a reasonable level of success.

Warne was surprisingly unforthcoming in criticising Kaneria yesterday during commentary. there were a lot of things that i reckon Warne must have recognised about Kanerias bowling, and he didnt say much really. he said that he was having a poor day, but no real detail as to why. Nasser Hussain was the only one that dared to find a specific fault, and he got it the wrong way round (said he needed to bowl faster, when it was the opposite, at 55mph!!). the only thing Warne did mention was that Kaneria was having a problem with over-pitching the ball, and was over compensating by taking flight off the ball. personally i thought it was the other way around, but Warne probably knows Kanerias technique better than me. either way, he needed to just slow it down and keep it loopy. fast and flat played into the batsmens hands, when youve got Collingwood and Morgan at the crease, both of whom are strong off the back foot, and especially Collingwood who almost never comes forwards!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

That's funny I've got an article here in a magazine where Kaneria is bigging himself up big time as being the best wrist spinner in the world saying that there's only 3 people in the world that can do he does, I think I quoted it before on here word for word amd now you're saying that the bloke is a fool.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

its just amazing that such a player can be playing at such a high level, and with a reasonable level of success.

Warne was surprisingly unforthcoming in criticising Kaneria yesterday during commentary. there were a lot of things that i reckon Warne must have recognised about Kanerias bowling, and he didnt say much really. he said that he was having a poor day, but no real detail as to why. Nasser Hussain was the only one that dared to find a specific fault, and he got it the wrong way round (said he needed to bowl faster, when it was the opposite, at 55mph!!). the only thing Warne did mention was that Kaneria was having a problem with over-pitching the ball, and was over compensating by taking flight off the ball. personally i thought it was the other way around, but Warne probably knows Kanerias technique better than me. either way, he needed to just slow it down and keep it loopy. fast and flat played into the batsmens hands, when youve got Collingwood and Morgan at the crease, both of whom are strong off the back foot, and especially Collingwood who almost never comes forwards!!

Warne is the god of tactics in leg spin bowling, but what often gets lost is that kumble was quite adept at setting batsmen up and getting them - and also the fact that his bowling was constantly evolving right up to the time he retired. His main weapon being a topspinner and variations coming in pace - meant they weren't as spectacular as warne's.

To put Kaneria in the same boat is a little off-putting. Kaneria doesn't give me the impression to even understand what he's doing. I remember him claiming in an interview that he will achieve 600 test wickets and laughed myself silly.

If you look at his wickets -most of them have been very expensive -even the five wicket hauls come at quite a price -his bowling figures were synonymous with 30-40 overs 100+/5 for quite a while. Just that he perseveres, keeps on bowling . I'd rate Mushtaq ahmed miles ahead of kaneria.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Over the years - Muralitharan has had greater success against right handed batsmen than against left handers quite unconventional. I seem to understand the reason a little now. These days, I'm getting the ball to spin miles on our matting wicket and I keep missing the edges and stumps quick easily. On the other hand, when a leftie comes into bat, the same deliveries can start a little wider and it becomes very difficult for the LHB to play against the turning and bouncing ball.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Warne is the god of tactics in leg spin bowling, but what often gets lost is that kumble was quite adept at setting batsmen up and getting them - and also the fact that his bowling was constantly evolving right up to the time he retired. His main weapon being a topspinner and variations coming in pace - meant they weren't as spectacular as warne's.

To put Kaneria in the same boat is a little off-putting. Kaneria doesn't give me the impression to even understand what he's doing. I remember him claiming in an interview that he will achieve 600 test wickets and laughed myself silly.

If you look at his wickets -most of them have been very expensive -even the five wicket hauls come at quite a price -his bowling figures were synonymous with 30-40 overs 100+/5 for quite a while. Just that he perseveres, keeps on bowling . I'd rate Mushtaq ahmed miles ahead of kaneria.

He's probably a fair leggie, he just needs to keep his mouth shut I reckon.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Over the years - Muralitharan has had greater success against right handed batsmen than against left handers quite unconventional. I seem to understand the reason a little now. These days, I'm getting the ball to spin miles on our matting wicket and I keep missing the edges and stumps quick easily. On the other hand, when a leftie comes into bat, the same deliveries can start a little wider and it becomes very difficult for the LHB to play against the turning and bouncing ball.

I take it this is your off-spinner - going away from the edge of the bat of the leftie? By most peoples reckoning especially with the offies propensity to be accurate and faster - this should be when you fill your boots?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I might be uploading a batch of new videos soon viewed from an unusual angle have a look at the test video YouTube - paddock sky view this'll be interesting to see - what do you reckon?

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I take it this is your off-spinner - going away from the edge of the bat of the leftie? By most peoples reckoning especially with the offies propensity to be accurate and faster - this should be when you fill your boots?

No dave, the opposite . I'm troubling the left handers more because the ball is turning in sharply off a length from way outside off. Yet it is hitting the stumps so the batsman has to play at those deliveries. Whereas to the right handers- the ball is turning so much that it keeps missing the stumps and the edges. If I start wider down the leg (to hit the stumps) margin of error in length becomes very very small.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

No dave, the opposite . I'm troubling the left handers more because the ball is turning in sharply off a length from way outside off. Yet it is hitting the stumps so the batsman has to play at those deliveries. Whereas to the right handers- the ball is turning so much that it keeps missing the stumps and the edges. If I start wider down the leg (to hit the stumps) margin of error in length becomes very very small.

Shrek - sorry mate - are you a finger spinner?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

To put Kaneria in the same boat is a little off-putting.

Yeah i wouldn't put em in the same vessel either, Kumble would get sick of Kanerias bragging and throw him overboard.

When Kerry O Keefe made the point he contrasted Kumbles greatness as a bowler compared to Kanerias hit and miss inconsistency.(a lot of K,s amongst those three leggies mentioned, similarities as well)

Kaneria is a bowler first and legspinner second. But he does force his personality on the game more than most. I get a laugh out of a lot of the things he says, he is very confident, a bit of a fox as well in his tactics but outsmarts himself a lot.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i wouldnt put Kaneria as one of 3 in the world that can do what he does. based on current players (in all formats), Warne stands miles above the rest. Murali is excluded from this as hes an off spinner. Kumble i dont think plays in any format anymore? but if he did he would probably be 2nd. youve then got a handful of 2nd tier leg spinners in Steve Smith, Graeme Cremer (from Zimbabwe), Amit Mishra (India), and Danish Kaneria. all of them have control of most of the variations, and whilst Kaneria has a lot more wickets than the others (who are all youngsters), hes so inconsistent that you just never know what hes going to produce. one day hes world class, the next day he wouldnt even get into most county sides. so id say all of those are fairly similar on ability.

hes not in the same class as Warne, not even close. and hes definitely not the best leg spinner in cricket, even without Warne and Kumble. personally i rate Cremer as the best prospect, hes unfortunate that hes from Zimbabwe and not South Africa though. hes also got Ray Price to compete with for spin in that side which is going to be tough for him.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I might be uploading a batch of new videos soon viewed from an unusual angle have a look at the test video YouTube - paddock sky view this'll be interesting to see - what do you reckon?

how are you getting the camera that high, using that giant tripod youve got?

it will be interesting to see what the bowling looks like from the elevated angle. its a shame you cant place the tripod 40 yards further back, because then it would be more like the television angle.

maybe dont position it quite as high up as that, but probably 10 feet higher than normal would be a good angle. you can judge the angle by how long the pitch looks on the video.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

It's at the top of one of those telescopic poles used by decorators 18' long, yeah I thought the same - maybe a little lower.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

The Big Leg Break
I've just written a big update around my perseverence with the Biggun (Big Leg Break) have a look Spin bowling-Legbreak

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Shrek - sorry mate - are you a finger spinner?

Nope - true blue wrist spinner who's been asked many times by captains if he can bowl something else but never recovered from the time he was smitten by warne bug at the age of 13.

It is only in the last month or so that I've begun enjoying consistency in my lengths

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

The Big Leg Break
I've just written a big update around my perseverence with the Biggun (Big Leg Break) have a look Spin bowling-Legbreak

i think that even if you develop the big leg break consistently, youll still struggle to make it work if you dont bowl it leg side. in my experience, as a predominantly leg stump and outside bowler, most batsmen struggle off their legs. especially if the ball is well flighted, moves in the air, and turns off the pitch.

the drawback to legside bowling is that wides can be problematic, and length becomes more critical. if you bowl at middle and off stump then length is more forgiving, but short outside leg stump is easy singles for everyone, or easy boundaries for good batsmen. and short outside off stump just encourages batsmen to slap you through the off side, which requires basically no skill whatsoever, and is very hard to set a field for. there is also the issue of LBW becoming near enough impossible to get, but LBW's are fairly rare in Sunday cricket anyway.

the positives of leg side bowling depend on your bowling style. you have to pitch the ball up, and length is critical. full is better than short, but full is also very easy to hit, however its a lot easier to set a field for. anything full toss is going airborne between backward square leg and mid wicket. anything very full is likely to go along the ground through the same areas, or if its on the stumps then it will go straighter. full takes turn and bounce out of the equation, but if the batsman misses the ball or tries to advance down the pitch then it can easily take wickets.

short on the leg side can end up absolutely anywhere. if it doesnt turn then it gets tucked off the pads a lot, or turned around the corner. it can also get pulled. you basically offer shots anywhere from fine leg to mid-on. if it turns then it also opens up the off side. you basically give the batsman possibilities to hit the ball anywhere around the ground. its impossible to defend unless the batsman favours a specific shot. and even then, if theyre good theyll just clear the ropes and take the field out of the equation anyway. short is very bad!!

once you find the right length (which i find is around 2.5 to 4 yards from the stumps) then it becomes almost unplayable. balls that dont turn need to pass the pads within 6-12". you wont get called wide there, even in T20 they usually pass as ok, and it doesnt give the batsman any room. he is forced to play across his front pad if its pitched on a good length, and there are high margins for error. most good batsmen simply leave the ball when its going on this line, which leaves them prone to being bowled behind their legs. especially if a few balls go straight and they get into the habit of leaving it leg side, and then one rips back in. ive not seen a club player yet that covers the ball off with their front pad. and if they do, then they leave themselves open for being bowled if the ball rips across them (maybe thats why they dont do it. no club batsman ever believes that a club leggie is good enough to bowl them behind their legs, and some even take offence if you chirp at them to tell them how close they were to it happening. its only a matter of time...).

if the ball is turning then the world is your oyster. so long as the length is good, its extremely hard to drive the ball off of leg stump or just outside. it requires the batsman opening their stance right up and using their feet. very few are good enough to use their feet leg side without missing the ball regularly (and getting stumped). and a very open stance makes it harder to put bat on ball, and even harder to adjust to turn and bounce.

the sweep shot is an option, but a high risk one on that length. i welcome batsmen that sweep me, and its very easy to set a field for their mistake. although i flaunt my own advice when batting myself, as i sweep a lot. its a low risk shot when im batting, and a high risk shot when im bowling. selective hypocrisy on my part.

if they are incredibly stupid (as one batsman this season was, although he got away with it) then theyll try and reverse sweep you. let them do it, then sledge the crap out of them when they miss the ball. if they are even more stupid then theyll try a switch hit. laugh at them, hard. you want them to try it twice. i can almost always see the switch hit coming, and when it does i bowl a short zooter. watch them try to dig that out cack-handed when it dies off the pitch and hits their stumps 6" above ground.

those are basically the only shots on offer. all fairly well covered. if you turn the ball huge and it ends up outside their off stump then it opens up off-side shots, which ordinarily are easier to play, but against leg side leg spin are the most difficult and risky shots possible. in order to play them you have to assume that the ball is going to turn and not cover it off on the leg side at all. e.g. you keep your stance closed off and play for turn. if the ball doesnt turn then youre screwed. if it pitches on leg stump then youre probably out LBW (i got a wicket in this exact way a few weeks ago). and even if it does turn its probably going to bowl you through the gate, or find your edge. its a hugely risky tactic, that no batsman has ever succeeded with against me when ive landed the ball on a good length. it only really works when im bowling short.

this is why, for me, leg side is king for a leg spinner. you need to have control to keep the ball within an 18" wide channel, starting from middle stump and extending outside leg stump. and every ball needs to land around the same spot. it doesnt matter whether it turns or not, so long as its variable. if some turn and some dont then natural variation does everything you need it to. if youre turning it consistently then your proper variations come into play. i find this a particularly good tactic given that my 2 main variations are the leg break (at various angles) and the zooter. my topper and wrong'un are improving a lot, but the zooter is the most effective variation for me. the topper, wrong'un and flipper work best for off stump lines. but i still think leg side lines, or at the very least middle-leg stump, are the best tactic. both in an attacking sense, AND a defensive sense.

theres a reason why Paul Harris (S.African slow left armer) bowls leg side from over the wicket in test matches and goes for almost no runs at all. its because hes stupidly defensive and knows that batsmen cant score runs here. but he doesnt turn the ball, at all. if you turn the ball then the ones that dont turn are defensive (which is good), and the ones that do turn are hugely attacking. so you get the best of both worlds and completely cover your options.