Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;366826 said:
Yeah you'll be lucky to find any matches after this weekend. It'll all be indoors from now through till April. I'm just wondering what variations I'd use on a regular basis. I'm not a big fan of the back-spinning flipper as it strikes me as being just like a medium pacers ball, it works okay out of nowhere but in order to bowl it like that you have to practice it regularly and I reckon the time wasted bowling that variation would be better used bowling the Top-Spinning Flipper.

I normally put together a training plan over the winter and last years was to recover the Leg Break. I reckon this year the primary plan will be to suss out the Biggun. But a secondary plan will be to work on -

1. Getting the Wrong Un very accurate
2. Getting the Top-Spinner dipping well
3. Keeping the Top-Spinning Flipper on song

So it go into the new season with 4 variations that are all accurate and usable. I need to work on the slightly shorter length and that's where the dip needs to be improved as I want to maintain the little speed that I have so the best way to shorten my length will be to increase my control over my dip.

my plan is...

1. get fit. im so out of shape and i need to improve my fitness regardless of cricket. so lots of running i think.

2. get my leg breaks as accurate and consistent as i can. my target is to be able to land the ball on a dinner plate by March with 5/6 ball consistency.

3. increase my speed. from my slow motion shots my average speed over 22 yards is 31mph, but that includes the ball bouncing so that takes loads of pace off at the end. peak speed out of the hand is probably high 30's. id like to have that in the high 40's. i can bowl MUCH faster than i generally do and still get the same turn (i reckon i can hit 45-50mph when i bowl at full effort), but with lots more drift and dip. i only ever do it for a few balls at a time though as the whole action has to move faster and thus my accuracy and rhythm isnt there yet. i didnt want to over-practice this whilst i was still possibly playing matches, now that the season is done there is no short term problems. the interesting thing is that the ball doesnt pitch fuller, and im not entirely convinced it needs to "dip" because it isnt just overspun deliveries that work like this, il come back to this in a moment.

4. continue to develop my variations. at present ive got all the leg breaks from small overspun to large backspun (i overpractice the overspun though and its hurting my action for the others, i need to practice all equally). ive got my round-the-loop slider that i need to develop more. ive got the overspun off-break flipper that i need to improve a lot as its about 10% consistent at present (accuracy is generally good, it just doesnt always land on the seam and turn back in, sometimes it goes straight). my top spinner is disappearing and becoming a leg break, i need to practice it more so i dont lose the action, and id like to have a wrong'un but dont hold out any hope of ever having one, if i do its a bonus. ive also discovered a "zooter" that does some very interesting things, so i want to have a play with that.

5. establish myself with a club in pre-season (ideally the club i play for now, but if not then il move elsewhere) so that im playing regular league cricket next season. this is possibly a tall ask given that ive only been playing 3 months lol, but im determined to play league cricket next season and see no reason why it shouldnt be entirely possible if i develop at the same rate over the winter as i have thus far.

6. improve my batting technique considerably in pre season nets. if i can bat decently then it improves my chances of achieving number 5. if i cant bat then my bowling will have to be amazing to justify a place in a league side as a spinner that doesnt bat. most club spinners seem to primarily be batsmen who bowl a bit as well. the "specialist" bowlers are almost always the quicks.

so thats my winter plan, im hoping that the nets at my club stay up all through winter so that i can practice whenever weather and time permits (i dont mind braving the cold, and i reckon practicing on cold, wet net surfaces could be an amazing learning tool. ive read that if you can turn it on smooth bare concrete youll generally be able to turn it on even the smoothest wickets, even at test level. if i can turn it on a cold and wet net surface then thats got to be a similar comparison).


back to my point about increasing speed and the effects on length though - Shane Warne bowled up around the 45-50mph mark generally. most leg spinners seem to be in a similar range, 45-55mph maybe. typically they dont flight the ball in a particularly loopy manner, but its certainly not flat like a medium pacer. i always assumed it was dip from the magnus effect that allowed this, the faster they bowl the more dip they can generate. but that would only work on overspun deliveries, and Warne can bowl his 90 deg leg breaks at the same speed and land them in the same place.

the aerodynamic drag (calculated in its simplified form i must add) on the ball is proportional to the square of velocity. e.g if you double the speed, you quadruple the drag. if i currently bowl at 35mph and then increase that to 50mph, it actually works out that the drag forces on the ball DOUBLE. the increased velocity will also cause the flow to seperate from the surface of the ball earlier which will in turn increase this even more. and the seam throws this into the mix even more.

to summarise, i think simply bowling faster will take care of the length itself. im certainly find this so far, just so long as you dont lob the ball upwards. i dont think really loopy flight is that helpful, it gets the batsman looking up but it either has to be super slow, or it will land very full and its easy to play. i think a flatter trajectory that goes JUST above the eyeline is generally more dangerous because it gets the batsman wanting to play you in the same way they would a medium pacer. and by the time the ball has moved around in flight its too late for them to properly adjust if there is enough pace on the ball. hence i want to bowl at around 45mph. i cause batsmen problems at maybe 35mph (in matches i reckon ive been bowling even slower, maybe 30mph), so at 45mph i reckon it will create havoc amongst club level batsmen. its the same sort of speed that county and international leggies bowl at, and i think its the difference between good club spinners and those that make the next grade. at 30mph the batsman has about 1.4 seconds from the ball leaving the hand to reaching the bat, and about 0.4s of that is after the ball pitches. at 45mph its about 1.0s from hand to bat, and only about 0.25s after the ball pitches. its a substantial difference, and im not sure any batsman at club level has the talent to make a convincing adjustment in that time, so theyre going to be playing you far more on merit. if the last ball turned across them from outside leg to outside off, and the next one only turns from outside leg to hitting middle, the bat is likely going to be in the wrong place, as are the feet! add drift into the equation, of which i can already generate upto 12-18" at my current pace so i reckon that will be upto 2 feet at 45mph, and it should bode fairly well.

those are the goals, lets see where im at in 6 months time. it will be interesting to have comparable video footage as well, thats one of the reasons why i really wanted to record myself now, so ive got a record of where i was at before the close-season development.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim2109;366941 said:
my plan is...

1. get fit. im so out of shape and i need to improve my fitness regardless of cricket. so lots of running i think.

Generally a good set of plans, very technical at the end there with your theories. But I have to take umbrage at your 'Lots of running' comment. You need to run this past David Hinchcliffe and Liz Wizard on the nutrition and fitness pages and I'm almost 100% certain they'll tell you that's the last thing you need to be working on. The rule is 'Cricket Specific' and running long distances is not cricket specific, you'd be better sprinting for 10 seconds, walking for 10, sprinting for 10, walking for 10 to emulate closer the physical demands of batting and fielding. Their big issue is core strength, you should go over to that thread or visit David Hinchcliffes own website and see what they recommend. It's certainly not long distance running. Power walking would even be better option to running.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;367018 said:
Generally a good set of plans, very technical at the end there with your theories. But I have to take umbrage at your 'Lots of running' comment. You need to run this past David Hinchcliffe and Liz Wizard on the nutrition and fitness pages and I'm almost 100% certain they'll tell you that's the last thing you need to be working on. The rule is 'Cricket Specific' and running long distances is not cricket specific, you'd be better sprinting for 10 seconds, walking for 10, sprinting for 10, walking for 10 to emulate closer the physical demands of batting and fielding. Their big issue is core strength, you should go over to that thread or visit David Hinchcliffes own website and see what they recommend. It's certainly not long distance running. Power walking would even be better option to running.

im not that keen on running long distances, i get bored of just running around barely going faster than walking pace but using twice the energy. jogging is the most pointless exercise in the world IMO lol. i like to run as short a distance as possible at maximum effort. in basketball the exercise is called "suicides", thats where i found out about it. you basically just run varied length sprints up and down the court, i do it on football pitches instead because theres 2 within a few hundred yards of my house.

il probably throw in some bodyweight exercises too, and ive got a heavy punchbag in the garden that i work out on. ive read lots of Liz and Davids articles before, they are excellent articles, and the advice certainly hasnt been wasted on me. when i graduated from university i was unemployed for quite a while and had nothing to do all day, and i was carrying about 20% more bodyfat than i wanted to so i did a ton of research into exercise and devised workout regimes. i got into the best shape of my life in about 6 months. i could do with repeating something similar tbh, im in about the same shape now as i was then. so ive got a reasonable idea of what works and what doesnt.

im not focussing too much on making my exercises cricket specific though. if i was a full time cricketer then maybe, i just want general fitness and to get into better "visual" shape. being generally fit is still helpful to cricket, more so than being unfit like i am at present!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim2109;366941 said:
my plan is...

1. get fit. im so out of shape and i need to improve my fitness regardless of cricket. so lots of running i think.

2. get my leg breaks as accurate and consistent as i can. my target is to be able to land the ball on a dinner plate by March with 5/6 ball consistency.

3. increase my speed. from my slow motion shots my average speed over 22 yards is 31mph, but that includes the ball bouncing so that takes loads of pace off at the end. peak speed out of the hand is probably high 30's. id like to have that in the high 40's. i can bowl MUCH faster than i generally do and still get the same turn (i reckon i can hit 45-50mph when i bowl at full effort), but with lots more drift and dip. i only ever do it for a few balls at a time though as the whole action has to move faster and thus my accuracy and rhythm isnt there yet. i didnt want to over-practice this whilst i was still possibly playing matches, now that the season is done there is no short term problems. the interesting thing is that the ball doesnt pitch fuller, and im not entirely convinced it needs to "dip" because it isnt just overspun deliveries that work like this, il come back to this in a moment.

4. continue to develop my variations. at present ive got all the leg breaks from small overspun to large backspun (i overpractice the overspun though and its hurting my action for the others, i need to practice all equally). ive got my round-the-loop slider that i need to develop more. ive got the overspun off-break flipper that i need to improve a lot as its about 10% consistent at present (accuracy is generally good, it just doesnt always land on the seam and turn back in, sometimes it goes straight). my top spinner is disappearing and becoming a leg break, i need to practice it more so i dont lose the action, and id like to have a wrong'un but dont hold out any hope of ever having one, if i do its a bonus. ive also discovered a "zooter" that does some very interesting things, so i want to have a play with that.

5. establish myself with a club in pre-season (ideally the club i play for now, but if not then il move elsewhere) so that im playing regular league cricket next season. this is possibly a tall ask given that ive only been playing 3 months lol, but im determined to play league cricket next season and see no reason why it shouldnt be entirely possible if i develop at the same rate over the winter as i have thus far.

6. improve my batting technique considerably in pre season nets. if i can bat decently then it improves my chances of achieving number 5. if i cant bat then my bowling will have to be amazing to justify a place in a league side as a spinner that doesnt bat. most club spinners seem to primarily be batsmen who bowl a bit as well. the "specialist" bowlers are almost always the quicks.

so thats my winter plan, im hoping that the nets at my club stay up all through winter so that i can practice whenever weather and time permits (i dont mind braving the cold, and i reckon practicing on cold, wet net surfaces could be an amazing learning tool. ive read that if you can turn it on smooth bare concrete youll generally be able to turn it on even the smoothest wickets, even at test level. if i can turn it on a cold and wet net surface then thats got to be a similar comparison).


back to my point about increasing speed and the effects on length though - Shane Warne bowled up around the 45-50mph mark generally. most leg spinners seem to be in a similar range, 45-55mph maybe. typically they dont flight the ball in a particularly loopy manner, but its certainly not flat like a medium pacer. i always assumed it was dip from the magnus effect that allowed this, the faster they bowl the more dip they can generate. but that would only work on overspun deliveries, and Warne can bowl his 90 deg leg breaks at the same speed and land them in the same place.

the aerodynamic drag (calculated in its simplified form i must add) on the ball is proportional to the square of velocity. e.g if you double the speed, you quadruple the drag. if i currently bowl at 35mph and then increase that to 50mph, it actually works out that the drag forces on the ball DOUBLE. the increased velocity will also cause the flow to seperate from the surface of the ball earlier which will in turn increase this even more. and the seam throws this into the mix even more.

to summarise, i think simply bowling faster will take care of the length itself. im certainly find this so far, just so long as you dont lob the ball upwards. i dont think really loopy flight is that helpful, it gets the batsman looking up but it either has to be super slow, or it will land very full and its easy to play. i think a flatter trajectory that goes JUST above the eyeline is generally more dangerous because it gets the batsman wanting to play you in the same way they would a medium pacer. and by the time the ball has moved around in flight its too late for them to properly adjust if there is enough pace on the ball. hence i want to bowl at around 45mph. i cause batsmen problems at maybe 35mph (in matches i reckon ive been bowling even slower, maybe 30mph), so at 45mph i reckon it will create havoc amongst club level batsmen. its the same sort of speed that county and international leggies bowl at, and i think its the difference between good club spinners and those that make the next grade. at 30mph the batsman has about 1.4 seconds from the ball leaving the hand to reaching the bat, and about 0.4s of that is after the ball pitches. at 45mph its about 1.0s from hand to bat, and only about 0.25s after the ball pitches. its a substantial difference, and im not sure any batsman at club level has the talent to make a convincing adjustment in that time, so theyre going to be playing you far more on merit. if the last ball turned across them from outside leg to outside off, and the next one only turns from outside leg to hitting middle, the bat is likely going to be in the wrong place, as are the feet! add drift into the equation, of which i can already generate upto 12-18" at my current pace so i reckon that will be upto 2 feet at 45mph, and it should bode fairly well.

those are the goals, lets see where im at in 6 months time. it will be interesting to have comparable video footage as well, thats one of the reasons why i really wanted to record myself now, so ive got a record of where i was at before the close-season development.

Two things here really. I like the emphasis on flight JUST above the eyeline. This is exactly what Grimmett said he had to do against the better batsmen. Against those that could not bat like tailenders etc Grimmett then would toss the ball higher but against the greatest all time players of spin like Bradman , Mc Cabe, MacCartney, Hammond etc Grimmett had to bowl flatter and somewhat faster.

The thing about increasing speed is most of us probably would like to but achieving this is a tricky thing isn't it ? If you went out now and purposely tried to bowl quicker the results might be disastrous especially accuracy.

Philpott spends some time discussing how fast a legspinner should bowl and ends by saying " there is a natural speed for each bowler. As long as youre body and shoulder are working fully in delivery there is no need to speed up."

But if you are too slow then even an average batsman can sit on you and play you off the pitch. Though a good slow legspinner always seems faster when you are facing him than from any other standpoint , if he is getting ' nip' off the wicket. Now Grimmett does say somewhere that according to science we cant actually gain pace off the wicket, but if you muck around with a rubber ball and especially grimmetts overspinning flipper you seem to overcome newton at first glance but really topspin and overspin can be shown to gain pace off the surface to my eye. Any scientists out there to clue me in?

Like Grimmett, Philpott is more concerned with " gaining pace" off the wicket through the use of overspin and armswing . Grimmett stated often that it was change of pace that brought down the best players of that golden age of batsmanship he played in. Moreso than flight or spin
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Philpott also bowled flatter to the better batsmen. If he gave too much flight against Bob Simpson or Neil Harvey, Philpott reckons the ball never hit the deck before they were down to you on the full toss let alone the half volley.

I reckon Grimmetts big secret was the variation in release point that he used to vary his pace. No change in action, completely deadpan but constantly varying the speed without the batsmen being able to pick it. As he said it is a simple idea releasing a fraction earlier for a sower ball or hanging on to the ball for extra pace. For the slower one he said his arm " beat" the ball after he let go. But it took him years of practise to master this simple trick. I have heard Stuart Macgill say Grimmett needed to do this cause of his repetitve and mechanical bowling whereas most of us get change of pace through natural variation
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

interesting stuff, ive never read any of the Grimmett literature so those pearls of wisdom were all new to me, its reassuring to hear that one of the greats was coming up with the same thoughts 50 years before i was born lol.

ive read the Philpott book however, and did take note of the "natural pace" comments. i think that is open to interpretation though. what is "working fully"? for example, if im running i can be jogging slowly, running at a steady fast pace, or flat out sprinting. which is "working fully", surely if you are working fully it isnt actually possible to work any harder. so i think it is a little vague.

at present i am very comfortable, im definitely not pushing myself 100%. apart from when i get the occasional delivery very wrong or overpractice flippers i dont feel any discomfort at all unless i practice for at least 2 hours straight. and even then its not pain, merely tiredness/aching. so i can certainly increase my efforts yet, otherwise i probably wouldnt be considering it if i already felt i was bowling as quick as i should be. im by no means a weak person either, im 6'2" with fairly long arms, so it stands to reason that my pace should ultimately be up there with the likes of Warne. so i think it definitely needs to be developed over the winter.

with regards "gaining pace" off the pitch - i guess its relativity at work, and mental perception. if you bowl the same delivery 10 times on a good pitch it should do the same thing 10 times. same trajectory, same bounce, same pace off the wicket. if you bowl the same ball but with backspin then on contact with the pitch it should hold up (ignoring the effects on flight for this example). your brain would tell you that it will do the same as all the others, but then it slows down off the pitch and your timing would be off. bearing in mind that were talking about differences of milliseconds here, and thats the difference between middling it or toe ending it, or finding the inside edge, etc. on the top spinners it obviously finds pace, i think the zooter is the best delivery for this, hence i plan to do some work with it. it absolutely flies through after bouncing, im not 100% sure why. but i think it has to do with the seam being completely out of the way (horizontal and spinning like a flying saucer), whereas most sliders the seam is scrambled and will still touch the pitch in some way and take extra pace off. it also has a very flat trajectory like a slider which emphasises the zip even more. also im not sure whether the sideways rotation acts in some way to reduce the friction at the point of contact as well. i actually think its the only delivery that any type of conventional bowler can accurately control the spin of without the seam ever having a chance of touching the pitch, or the ball having any kind of over/underspin. even a seamer cant achieve that since their release will always impart some backspin or scramble the seam if they try to land it off seam. the ONLY bowler i can think of who may differ is Malinga, his side-on slinging action can achieve this (and in slow motion indeed it often appears to do just as i have described), and just look at his yorkers - they zip through at an incredible pace. batsmen play him like a normal 90+mph bowler and still get beaten for pace off the pitch. commentators always talk about the angle of his arm deceiving batsmen, im convinced its actually the angle of the ball (and more importantly the seam position and rotation) that messes with their timing.

ive just done some quick maths, not related to the zooter, just conventional top spinners, and at 1300rpm the surface of the ball is rotating at about 13mph i think. in order to truly gain pace it would have to be spinning faster than the ball is moving forwards, which if it dips heavily enough might only be 20mph. even so, youd still have to impart over 2000rpm on the ball to achieve this, and thats if youre bowling slowly like me, probably around 30-35mph. for someone like Warne to achieve this at 47mph youre probably talking more like 3500rpm!!! so to all intents and purposes it is impossible to literally gain pace. all you can do is deceive the batsman by losing less pace than he is expecting. i can definitely see though how Grimmett came to his conclusions on the difficulty of this for batsmen. as ive said above about Malinga, i think it really messes with their heads when the ball reaches the bat quicker than they expect it to. theres no time at all to correct yourself by the time youve realised youve played the shot too late (or too early with backspin).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I think on the fully working point and the discussion relating to running in with a natural relaxed and controlled delivery - you/we might consider the inherent problems associated with stepping up the speed considerably in order to mix things up and keep the bat on his toes. I personally find it challenging to suddenly increase the speed by 10mph or more and maintain line and length despite the fact that it is physically possible. Is this tactic worthy of our time and how much more effort would be required to have this as part of your armoury I wonder?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;367169 said:
I think on the fully working point and the discussion relating to running in with a natural relaxed and controlled delivery - you/we might consider the inherent problems associated with stepping up the speed considerably in order to mix things up and keep the bat on his toes. I personally find it challenging to suddenly increase the speed by 10mph or more and maintain line and length despite the fact that it is physically possible. Is this tactic worthy of our time and how much more effort would be required to have this as part of your armoury I wonder?

you mean to have a faster delivery as a variation rather than the stock ball? i think it is probably easier to have pace as stock and then back the pace down for a variation, bowling slower is always easier than bowling faster. having your stock pace with a much quicker variation is probably going to be tough to find accuracy with. also youve got to make sure it turns. the batsman will recognise a faster ball from your delivery action, and if it goes straight on youll get creamed. on the other hand if you bowl a slower ball then youll mess with their timing more, also its more likely to turn bigger and deceive that way as well.

i figure that ive got 6 months now to do some development. if i get to Xmas and my faster bowling simply isnt working then ive still got 3 months to go back to the slower stuff. plus chances are that if i work hard at bowling faster and then go back to slower il automatically find massive improvements in accuracy and consistency just because it will feel easier. both in terms of having built up the relevant muscles for much more powerful uses, and also in terms of timing, rhythm, etc.

ive been watching the cricket earlier, India vs Australia. India have got a leg spinner called Amit Mishra. ive heard very little about him, and this is the first time ive ever seen him bowl. he looks awesome!!! hes getting massive turn, causing Ricky Ponting no end of problems. and hes hardly going for any runs either. he got a wicket as well, he got a ball to dip hard, White tried to sweep him and misjudged the length for a classic top edge catch dismissal. hes had Ponting trying to sweep and missing the ball by literally a couple of feet. he looks an excellent little bowler. hes got a round-the-loop slider as well, it looked much like my own.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

It's a reasonable plan - try bowling faster, as you say the faster you bowl it potentially the more you may spin it and the dip and correct length come as a bi-product? Worth a crack over a few months. I can tell you that our best bowler with the club record and this years best RPO 3.62 over 262 overs bowls China man. He bowls fast and uses dip, speed and flight variation but you may have noticed the word spin isn't included. This is primarily because he isn't able to produce the spin on most wickets at his speed 45mph + Top-spin yeah but his side spin just doesn't have that much affect. Despite this he holds most of the clubs records with regards bowling.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;367202 said:
It's a reasonable plan - try bowling faster, as you say the faster you bowl it potentially the more you may spin it and the dip and correct length come as a bi-product? Worth a crack over a few months. I can tell you that our best bowler with the club record and this years best RPO 3.62 over 262 overs bowls China man. He bowls fast and uses dip, speed and flight variation but you may have noticed the word spin isn't included. This is primarily because he isn't able to produce the spin on most wickets at his speed 45mph + Top-spin yeah but his side spin just doesn't have that much affect. Despite this he holds most of the clubs records with regards bowling.

when you say spin im figuring you mean turn off the pitch? i can see that as a potential issue, probably the biggest issue with bowling faster. but at the same time drift, dip and bounce come more into the equation. so it makes sense that he is a successful bowler because of it. also the ball doesnt need to turn any more than the width of the bat in theory, thats all that is required for the bat to either miss the ball or nick an edge. this is only the case on faster bowling though, at 30mph the batsman has the time to correct, at 60mph he doesnt (Ajantha Mendis is proof). at 45mph in the middle i think il still need to be able to generate turn from leg stump across to off stump at the very minimum though. in the nets, where turn is typically exaggerated compared to average wickets, thats going to mean i need to replicate what i was doing in the videos really.

i think another important aspect of bowling faster though is to also have the variations that restrict runs effectively. if the ball isnt turning then youve got to build pressure instead and force a mistake, whereas a ball that is ripping sideways will create mistakes regardless. thats where i think the top spinner, slider, zooter, flipper, etc come into play more. it works for Adil Rashid reasonably well with minimal turn, and he seems to get his wickets through batsmen playing rash shots trying to force runs.

have a look at my video thread Dave, theres a new clip to see...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Where on you tube - what do I search for as you number your vids rather than name them?

No worries I found it, yeah that's good, I like the way that initially it looks as though it's going to be coming out of the back of the hand like a Wrong Un and then you flick the wrist and it comes out of the front. This is what I'd describe as my 'Unfurling leg break' variation, but I think looking at this - there's something different about the way that you do it, your wrist isn't cocked in the same way as mine is - so there's something else going on there that I need to look at. I reckon these slo mo cameras should be free from the NHS or somewhere so that we don't do ourselves physical damage and therefore cost the state money in the longer run! I definitely need one to look at all my actions, I reckon we're on the verge of starting a wrist spin revolution here on this thread and a run on these cameras in the shops!!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jim2109#play/all/uploads-all/0/SUXyV1TrA_c
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim2109;367182 said:
you mean to have a faster delivery as a variation rather than the stock ball? i think it is probably easier to have pace as stock and then back the pace down for a variation, bowling slower is always easier than bowling faster. having your stock pace with a much quicker variation is probably going to be tough to find accuracy with. also youve got to make sure it turns. the batsman will recognise a faster ball from your delivery action, and if it goes straight on youll get creamed. on the other hand if you bowl a slower ball then youll mess with their timing more, also its more likely to turn bigger and deceive that way as well.

i figure that ive got 6 months now to do some development. if i get to Xmas and my faster bowling simply isnt working then ive still got 3 months to go back to the slower stuff. plus chances are that if i work hard at bowling faster and then go back to slower il automatically find massive improvements in accuracy and consistency just because it will feel easier. both in terms of having built up the relevant muscles for much more powerful uses, and also in terms of timing, rhythm, etc.

ive been watching the cricket earlier, India vs Australia. India have got a leg spinner called Amit Mishra. ive heard very little about him, and this is the first time ive ever seen him bowl. he looks awesome!!! hes getting massive turn, causing Ricky Ponting no end of problems. and hes hardly going for any runs either. he got a wicket as well, he got a ball to dip hard, White tried to sweep him and misjudged the length for a classic top edge catch dismissal. hes had Ponting trying to sweep and missing the ball by literally a couple of feet. he looks an excellent little bowler. hes got a round-the-loop slider as well, it looked much like my own.

Yeah Mishra, I haven't seen him for a while but he is the best leggie i have seen since warne I reckoned when i saw him bowl. I could watch him bowl all day that kid.

Being over 6' jim , you should get more pace and bounce than the average smaller guy but to me a tall legspinner does not look right somehow. It is only my personal bias. To me a legspinner of shorter stature seems more natural. I am only 5 foot 10 and a half inches but still always felt too tall and kind of wished I was shorter.

I suppose basically throughout history the tall guys were overall faster bouncier and more accurate and the shorter guys slower but used flight and spin more.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim2109;367204 said:
also the ball doesnt need to turn any more than the width of the bat in theory, thats all that is required for the bat to either miss the ball or nick an edge. QUOTE]

They always say its not how big its spinning it is how fast it spins. A fast true batting surface is great for legspin especially with a breeze. You dont need or even want big turn on these tracks.

You know you need to worry more about how fast you can spin the ball on its axis over how fast you propel it forwards. A fast spinning ball going relatively slowly through the air with a breeze helping has more time to do things than one too fast. Let the batsman see your drift. Legspinners doing most things right will decieve with fast spin.

Now on slower tracks , like english ones in general, Grimmett bowled faster and often took the breeze behind him to get even faster through the air on slow pitches. He also introduced what he called "swing" to his bowling. This he did by using the same armswing directions of the swing bowler to shape the ball each way, usually away from the better batsmen, he mixed these in ,he wrote, with his " leg breaks and straight ones"
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;366671 said:
What I'm looking for is the technical details of the release, the position of the wrist at release and evidence of the Big Flick which I'm becoming ever sceptical about even exists in most peoples bowling. I want to to see where the wrist is and how it leaves the fingers and most importantly the wrist flicking and the ball snapping out of the fingers like a whiplash and the ball then coming out of the hand with the seam spinning 90 degrees to the direction of flight.

ive got you your videos!! im editing them now, then il be uploading them (probably wont be til late this evening though, theres lots to upload on my rubbish internet connection). il add a post to my video thread later on with all the details. theres all sorts of close ups of my action though. i also managed to bowl my overspun off-spinning flipper, with some surprising revelations on video...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

That off-spinning flipper is a B*****d of a ball to bowl, is that your preferred version of the Flipper - good to see it though Jim. Top work this, I'll get back to the others as I'm still viewing. Had a look now.

What do you reckon to your seam rotation - was you expecting that? The ball spins the right way (Leg break) but comes out with the scrambled seam.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;367394 said:
That off-spinning flipper is a B*****d of a ball to bowl, is that your preferred version of the Flipper - good to see it though Jim. Top work this, I'll get back to the others as I'm still viewing. Had a look now.

What do you reckon to your seam rotation - was you expecting that? The ball spins the right way (Leg break) but comes out with the scrambled seam.

the flippers i bowled in those vids are pretty much the only ones i can bowl at present. it seems though that my wrist angle doesnt matter, it always reverts to the same one lol. the very slight off-spinner. i bowled a couple a few weeks back like that to a batsman that turned back in by about 8" though and really had him sprawling to keep the ball out. it just depends on whether it hits the seam cleanly or not, it seems to be pot luck at present. it doesnt need big turn to cause issues ive found, my arm speed and action are VERY similar to my leg break, so most people wont pick it and will expect it to turn the other way.

the seam rotation is pretty good on most of the leg breaks. a few are slightly off axis, but ive discussed this before as being a good thing for consistency, a slightly scrambled seam has more chance of turning on any surface. most of the time the seam looks pretty close to perfect though. make sure you are not confusing the 2 pieces of tape, if you dont watch it closely enough with the white ball it can look like its completely scrambled when its absolutely upright. none of the videos ive posted have a seam that isnt close to spot on (some of the ones i didnt upload on the other hand... lol)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim2109;367395 said:
the flippers i bowled in those vids are pretty much the only ones i can bowl at present. it seems though that my wrist angle doesnt matter, it always reverts to the same one lol. the very slight off-spinner. i bowled a couple a few weeks back like that to a batsman that turned back in by about 8" though and really had him sprawling to keep the ball out. it just depends on whether it hits the seam cleanly or not, it seems to be pot luck at present. it doesnt need big turn to cause issues ive found, my arm speed and action are VERY similar to my leg break, so most people wont pick it and will expect it to turn the other way.

Yeah that is the magic of that ball, I reckon if you were to persevere with it, it could be devastating in a situation where you've got some cocky batsman who reckons he can pick the ball out of the hand. It's a million to one that he'd ever have had seen a Off-break Flipper - fact is you could shout down the pitch and tell him 'Mate watch out here comes the off-break Flipper' cos he'd see it coming out of the hand with the palm and the front of the wrist facing him and assume it was a leg break only for it to turn in on him.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;367396 said:
Yeah that is the magic of that ball, I reckon if you were to persevere with it, it could be devastating in a situation where you've got some cocky batsman who reckons he can pick the ball out of the hand. It's a million to one that he'd ever have had seen a Off-break Flipper - fact is you could shout down the pitch and tell him 'Mate watch out here comes the off-break Flipper' cos he'd see it coming out of the hand with the palm and the front of the wrist facing him and assume it was a leg break only for it to turn in on him.

out of curiosity i thought id see if i could overlay the 2 videos in my editing software, one of a square leg break and one of the off spinning flipper. and it turns out i can! so ive overlaid the 2 with some excellent results...

YouTube - Wrist Spin Bowling - Leg Break vs Off-Spinning Flipper - Overlaid Video Comparison

firstly, the action is all identical and at the same speed. right the way down to the hand and wrist position, and even the initial trajectory! all that varies really is the fingers, and i defy a batsman to spot that from 20 yards at full speed!! the videos are in 1/16 speed.

secondly, watch the differences in flight. the leg break actually starts out faster and seems to travel further. the flipper carries on flatter. the leg break dips a lot by comparison and they actually both land at the exact same length (give or take an inch or 2), and then off the pitch the flipper zips through much faster and hits the back of the nets first.

that delivery has the potential to be deadly if used in very strict moderation.
 
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