Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
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GoldenArm
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
YouTube - ICL 08: Saqlains Teesra aka Jalebi
just had to post this, linked on it from the other video of the Teesra or Jalebi or whatever they want to call it. but i watched the slow mo stuff and it made it so clear to me how i should be bowling a proper slider. its a similar sort of downward flick but he really pulls back on the ball from the front of the hand. its going to take a while to get the hang of this one i can tell.
YouTube - ICL 08: Saqlains Teesra aka Jalebi
just had to post this, linked on it from the other video of the Teesra or Jalebi or whatever they want to call it. but i watched the slow mo stuff and it made it so clear to me how i should be bowling a proper slider. its a similar sort of downward flick but he really pulls back on the ball from the front of the hand. its going to take a while to get the hang of this one i can tell.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Top quality vid here, looks like a slider. Right at the end there it looks as though he's dragging the fingers down the back of the ball to produce the backspin using an Offies grip?
GoldenArm;363697 said:
Top quality vid here, looks like a slider. Right at the end there it looks as though he's dragging the fingers down the back of the ball to produce the backspin using an Offies grip?
The Edge Of Willow
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I would agree with that as well; I've been bowling seriously for a couple of years, and I still feel only about half way there.
On the wrist spinning front I have made good progress. I got the release back during my last couple of net sessions. The bowling was quite slow, and inaccurate as always, but the release was much better.
GoldenArm said:
I would agree with that as well; I've been bowling seriously for a couple of years, and I still feel only about half way there.
On the wrist spinning front I have made good progress. I got the release back during my last couple of net sessions. The bowling was quite slow, and inaccurate as always, but the release was much better.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I reckon that you can learn to bowl a Leg Break e.g. a ball that turns within a couple of goes if someone shows you what to do. The next stage e.g. getting all the action right possibly a couple of years. Your line and length can come good while you're working on your bowling action, so around about 3 - 4 years you should be fairly sound. By your 4th year if you're really going at it and bowling maybe 2 or 3 variations as well and practicing all the time you might get a game in your 1st team at club level. But at this point I reckon you'd still lack the experience (As with me) to be able scheme and plan and ride the rough patches and come up with solutions while you're in situ. I reckon all that side to the game takes years and years. Loads of people say that you'll bowl wrist spin for years and years but it takes general life experience and maturity to have the constitution to do it really well and they reckon beyond 30 years old.
The Edge Of Willow;363712 said:
I reckon that you can learn to bowl a Leg Break e.g. a ball that turns within a couple of goes if someone shows you what to do. The next stage e.g. getting all the action right possibly a couple of years. Your line and length can come good while you're working on your bowling action, so around about 3 - 4 years you should be fairly sound. By your 4th year if you're really going at it and bowling maybe 2 or 3 variations as well and practicing all the time you might get a game in your 1st team at club level. But at this point I reckon you'd still lack the experience (As with me) to be able scheme and plan and ride the rough patches and come up with solutions while you're in situ. I reckon all that side to the game takes years and years. Loads of people say that you'll bowl wrist spin for years and years but it takes general life experience and maturity to have the constitution to do it really well and they reckon beyond 30 years old.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I've had a couple of sessions with a professional ECB coach a couple of years ago and said to him that I felt no matter how much I practices the progress wasn't that good and yet a session with him I improved almost instantly.
He basically said is that lots of leg spinners practice incorrectly by them selves, they cannot see their mistakes and just put down inaccuracy or lack of spin down to being rubbish rather than small technical problems. So you basically practice an action that is poorly aligned for hours on end and it becomes a habit.
He said that an hour a day for a month with a coach who knew their stuff and a leg spinner with a talent for spinning the ball and you would have a very good club level spinner. He said that when I bowled a good ball which had an action executing the basics correctly he'd say "try and remember how that felt and do it again". A week without practice it was gone again.
The Edge Of Willow;363712 said:
I've had a couple of sessions with a professional ECB coach a couple of years ago and said to him that I felt no matter how much I practices the progress wasn't that good and yet a session with him I improved almost instantly.
He basically said is that lots of leg spinners practice incorrectly by them selves, they cannot see their mistakes and just put down inaccuracy or lack of spin down to being rubbish rather than small technical problems. So you basically practice an action that is poorly aligned for hours on end and it becomes a habit.
He said that an hour a day for a month with a coach who knew their stuff and a leg spinner with a talent for spinning the ball and you would have a very good club level spinner. He said that when I bowled a good ball which had an action executing the basics correctly he'd say "try and remember how that felt and do it again". A week without practice it was gone again.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
You're almost certainly right, but it strikes me that there's very few Wrist Spinning coaches around. At my club there's some very well intentioned people including a bloke who bowls Chinaman who is without doubt the best bowler in the club, but on training nights he's working on his batting/bowling. He might have a few seconds to suggest some ideas and has said in the past things like if you get to the ground early I'll have a look at what you're doing and it always pans out that he's busy sorting pre-match stuff (He's the captain as well) so that's never happened. Our nets trainer similarly is looking after 30 other blokes and can only chip in with a small input. I think too that these blokes put a lot of effort into teaching the colts but they leave the likes of me to get on with it and figure it out ourselves. So I suppose if you're younger you may get a lot more attention, but I don't really know the younger kids at our club and they're not particularly good at articulating themselves, so if you were to ask them about the more technical aspects of their training and how it compares with learning on their own I'm sure they wouldn't have a lot to say about it.
I think you have a good point though and it would be good to have the opinion on here of someone that is being coached regularly or a real Wrist Spin coach to comment on the validity of our rantings here. I'm almost certain that they'd say that we're too focused on the details relating to variations and that our mantra should be very clearly Leg breaks, leg breaks and more Leg Breaks?
You're almost certainly right, but it strikes me that there's very few Wrist Spinning coaches around. At my club there's some very well intentioned people including a bloke who bowls Chinaman who is without doubt the best bowler in the club, but on training nights he's working on his batting/bowling. He might have a few seconds to suggest some ideas and has said in the past things like if you get to the ground early I'll have a look at what you're doing and it always pans out that he's busy sorting pre-match stuff (He's the captain as well) so that's never happened. Our nets trainer similarly is looking after 30 other blokes and can only chip in with a small input. I think too that these blokes put a lot of effort into teaching the colts but they leave the likes of me to get on with it and figure it out ourselves. So I suppose if you're younger you may get a lot more attention, but I don't really know the younger kids at our club and they're not particularly good at articulating themselves, so if you were to ask them about the more technical aspects of their training and how it compares with learning on their own I'm sure they wouldn't have a lot to say about it.
I think you have a good point though and it would be good to have the opinion on here of someone that is being coached regularly or a real Wrist Spin coach to comment on the validity of our rantings here. I'm almost certain that they'd say that we're too focused on the details relating to variations and that our mantra should be very clearly Leg breaks, leg breaks and more Leg Breaks?
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
i watched Rashid bowl his spell. 10-0-37-0. nothing spectacular but he restricted their runs. he bowled 10 overs on the bounce alongside Collingwood and Swann to really slow the Aussies down.
with regards his actual bowling, its nothing special but is very consistent. he bowls a very consistent line and length, gets good flight on the ball, occasionally it will turn, but mostly the seam appears scrambled. he throws in lots of sliders and top spinners, im not sure that he has a genuine wrong'un, it barely moves off of a straight line.
he seems to be working in the opposite way to what all the top leg spin coaches and players tell youngsters to do. rather than spinning the ball hard and then working on accuracy later he seems to have the accuracy nailed but lacks the revolutions. im not sure he will ever be a bowler of the same ability as Warne or MacGill in recent times. hes more likely to end up like Kaneria or Afridi with occasional great spells but mediocre most of the time. or maybe you dont need to turn the ball big in the modern game so much.
i watched Kaneria bowl for Essex last night as well in a Pro40 game. he was pretty average, i think he took a wicket but he was bowling lots of wides, some no balls, very inconsistent. in one over he used every variation, just fishing for something to happen.
theres definitely nobody in world cricket at present that even resembles Warne or MacGill in terms of ripping the ball. and even though there are loads of promising young players coming through, im not sure any of them are going to rip the ball hard either. i guess it might take 2-3 decades like it has in the past.
with T20 cricket the prevalent force everywhere except for England and Australia (probably the only 2 sides that play a really meaningful test series) maybe the modern day leggie will use minimal turn, and focus their attention on deception in flight, lots of subtle variation, and super consistent line and length. it seems to be working well for Ajantha Mendis, who will be playing for Hampshire next season!!
i watched Rashid bowl his spell. 10-0-37-0. nothing spectacular but he restricted their runs. he bowled 10 overs on the bounce alongside Collingwood and Swann to really slow the Aussies down.
with regards his actual bowling, its nothing special but is very consistent. he bowls a very consistent line and length, gets good flight on the ball, occasionally it will turn, but mostly the seam appears scrambled. he throws in lots of sliders and top spinners, im not sure that he has a genuine wrong'un, it barely moves off of a straight line.
he seems to be working in the opposite way to what all the top leg spin coaches and players tell youngsters to do. rather than spinning the ball hard and then working on accuracy later he seems to have the accuracy nailed but lacks the revolutions. im not sure he will ever be a bowler of the same ability as Warne or MacGill in recent times. hes more likely to end up like Kaneria or Afridi with occasional great spells but mediocre most of the time. or maybe you dont need to turn the ball big in the modern game so much.
i watched Kaneria bowl for Essex last night as well in a Pro40 game. he was pretty average, i think he took a wicket but he was bowling lots of wides, some no balls, very inconsistent. in one over he used every variation, just fishing for something to happen.
theres definitely nobody in world cricket at present that even resembles Warne or MacGill in terms of ripping the ball. and even though there are loads of promising young players coming through, im not sure any of them are going to rip the ball hard either. i guess it might take 2-3 decades like it has in the past.
with T20 cricket the prevalent force everywhere except for England and Australia (probably the only 2 sides that play a really meaningful test series) maybe the modern day leggie will use minimal turn, and focus their attention on deception in flight, lots of subtle variation, and super consistent line and length. it seems to be working well for Ajantha Mendis, who will be playing for Hampshire next season!!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Reading cricinfo's text commentary and listening to TMS they all seem to be very impressed with him. Sounds like he was given a role and filled it well.
Restricting the aussie top/middle order as he did is pretty impressive.
I've always been one of those people who judged spinners on turn but to be honest the more I see and hear from people I think that turn really is the cherry on the cake and not the be all and end all. I can turn it pretty far so I find it hard to believe that any leg spinner playing county cricket and certainly international cricket can't.
like you say though alot of these young lads seem to bowl with a scrabbled seam and not the straight seam that slow motion vids of warne show hence the ball doesn't grip and spit off the pitch. This may be intentional on their part as I've only ever seen the young lads in limited overs.
Reading cricinfo's text commentary and listening to TMS they all seem to be very impressed with him. Sounds like he was given a role and filled it well.
Restricting the aussie top/middle order as he did is pretty impressive.
I've always been one of those people who judged spinners on turn but to be honest the more I see and hear from people I think that turn really is the cherry on the cake and not the be all and end all. I can turn it pretty far so I find it hard to believe that any leg spinner playing county cricket and certainly international cricket can't.
like you say though alot of these young lads seem to bowl with a scrabbled seam and not the straight seam that slow motion vids of warne show hence the ball doesn't grip and spit off the pitch. This may be intentional on their part as I've only ever seen the young lads in limited overs.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
i think the same as you. ive been playing for 2 months and i can turn the ball pretty big. my accuracy is poor however. but for guys who have been bowling for 5+ years from a young age, it does make you wonder how they arent able to rip the ball much more with accuracy as well. i can also keep the seam very upright, which again makes me wonder how they arent able to.
but then historically there have been maybe 30 full time international leggies that made anyone sit up and take notice throughout history. so perhaps we have been spoiled by Warne, MacGill, and Kumble all coming in a short period of time with the ability to really spin the ball. and now we are judging everyone else too harshly?
personally i think harsh judgement is the way to go though. theres no point aspiring to be ordinary, if young leggies arent as good as Warne then they should be striving to be. as long as there is pressure on them they will have to improve. if everyone just treats it as "theyre not bad, theyre only young" then they will end up nowhere (hes not a leg spinner, but Monty Panesar fell foul to this mentality. he got loads of praise for ordinary bowling and hasnt improved since. i reckon hes about the 4th or 5th best English off spinner now!). i think the English leg spinners get more credit than they perhaps deserve just because its so rare for us to have any that are even in contention for international caps!!! Australians on the other hand dont seem to get a look in unless they are Warne-esque lol.
Paulinho;363810 said:
i think the same as you. ive been playing for 2 months and i can turn the ball pretty big. my accuracy is poor however. but for guys who have been bowling for 5+ years from a young age, it does make you wonder how they arent able to rip the ball much more with accuracy as well. i can also keep the seam very upright, which again makes me wonder how they arent able to.
but then historically there have been maybe 30 full time international leggies that made anyone sit up and take notice throughout history. so perhaps we have been spoiled by Warne, MacGill, and Kumble all coming in a short period of time with the ability to really spin the ball. and now we are judging everyone else too harshly?
personally i think harsh judgement is the way to go though. theres no point aspiring to be ordinary, if young leggies arent as good as Warne then they should be striving to be. as long as there is pressure on them they will have to improve. if everyone just treats it as "theyre not bad, theyre only young" then they will end up nowhere (hes not a leg spinner, but Monty Panesar fell foul to this mentality. he got loads of praise for ordinary bowling and hasnt improved since. i reckon hes about the 4th or 5th best English off spinner now!). i think the English leg spinners get more credit than they perhaps deserve just because its so rare for us to have any that are even in contention for international caps!!! Australians on the other hand dont seem to get a look in unless they are Warne-esque lol.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I reckon however you bowl as a Wrist Spinner be it with a big flick and getting it to turn off the wicket or with pin point accuracy and maybe a little bit of turn you'll always be judged on your performance. If you don't make some impact on the game either drying up the run rate or taking key wickets you're not going to be around very long. Of course if you do bowl wrist spin you've gotta be looking at the people you've listed and aspire to be like them.
But having said that my Captain (Chinaman) who holds the clubs record for the most wickets in a season and this year is currently going for - 249.8 - 35 - 892 - 61 which equates to Ave - 14.62; RPO 3.57; SR 24.57 and BB 4-22 hardly spins the ball at all, he gets some nice dip and varies his speed, with a particularly fast quicker ball and is generally very accurate, but turn off the wicket is negligible.
Hopefully a girl at work is going to record the highlights for me later on tonight - I've just texted her and she's said yes. Other than that Jim I'll be ask you to burn me off a DVD!!
I reckon however you bowl as a Wrist Spinner be it with a big flick and getting it to turn off the wicket or with pin point accuracy and maybe a little bit of turn you'll always be judged on your performance. If you don't make some impact on the game either drying up the run rate or taking key wickets you're not going to be around very long. Of course if you do bowl wrist spin you've gotta be looking at the people you've listed and aspire to be like them.
But having said that my Captain (Chinaman) who holds the clubs record for the most wickets in a season and this year is currently going for - 249.8 - 35 - 892 - 61 which equates to Ave - 14.62; RPO 3.57; SR 24.57 and BB 4-22 hardly spins the ball at all, he gets some nice dip and varies his speed, with a particularly fast quicker ball and is generally very accurate, but turn off the wicket is negligible.
Hopefully a girl at work is going to record the highlights for me later on tonight - I've just texted her and she's said yes. Other than that Jim I'll be ask you to burn me off a DVD!!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
ive been thinking about wrist spinners that dont turn the ball much whilst watching the cricket today, particularly Adil Rashid. firstly, hes been very highly praised by the commentators today, who at the same time are mostly ex-captains, both at international and county level. and it dawned on me why. as a captain he is a dream bowler to have...
1. he is superbly accurate. the single biggest problem associated with wrist spin is that its inaccurate, but great for taking wickets at the same time.
2. its also associated with being quite expensive in terms of runs, but Rashid is very economical in the one day game. he bowls a tight line and is very controlled, he gives little away. in his early career the same cant be said of Shane Warne. his accuracy, or lack thereof in his earlier years, almost cost him his chance of greatness. iirc he pretty much saved his international career with what would probably have been his last chance at the time by taking something like 8 wickets in an innings lol. had he got no wickets and been smashed all round the ground and not been given a full chance who knows where MacGill would be now...
3. he doesnt get much turn, but he gets the ball to move in flight, he really tosses it up, and he looks quite hard to play in terms of reading the ball. he had Michael Clarke struggling big time, and id regard Clarke as the best player of spin in world cricket. he almost never even tried to waltz down the pitch at him, its the first time ive ever seen Clarke get neutralised by a spin bowler.
so whilst it looked a fairly ordinary performance at first glance, i think it is actually much better than i was giving credit for when ive thought about it in more depth. hes only 21, so hes got plenty of time to learn the big ripping deliveries. and who knows, at test level he might play with more freedom. in one day games you cant really use the big ripper for fear of wides. and bowl a load of wides and youll get dropped and lose your chance to establish yourself. so maybe he is just taking baby steps to begin with. quite sensible too.
as a bonus, he batted well too, 31 not out off of 23 balls, unfortunately England still lost by 4 runs. hes cemented himself onto the teamsheet for the next match, lets hope he has a good series. the real question is whether he gets a go in the test series in South Africa. id really like to see them try him out for the full series, using 2 spinners. England havent had that sort of attack in a long time, and the 2 spinners along with the best swing attack in world cricket would make us even more formidable with the ball.
ive been thinking about wrist spinners that dont turn the ball much whilst watching the cricket today, particularly Adil Rashid. firstly, hes been very highly praised by the commentators today, who at the same time are mostly ex-captains, both at international and county level. and it dawned on me why. as a captain he is a dream bowler to have...
1. he is superbly accurate. the single biggest problem associated with wrist spin is that its inaccurate, but great for taking wickets at the same time.
2. its also associated with being quite expensive in terms of runs, but Rashid is very economical in the one day game. he bowls a tight line and is very controlled, he gives little away. in his early career the same cant be said of Shane Warne. his accuracy, or lack thereof in his earlier years, almost cost him his chance of greatness. iirc he pretty much saved his international career with what would probably have been his last chance at the time by taking something like 8 wickets in an innings lol. had he got no wickets and been smashed all round the ground and not been given a full chance who knows where MacGill would be now...
3. he doesnt get much turn, but he gets the ball to move in flight, he really tosses it up, and he looks quite hard to play in terms of reading the ball. he had Michael Clarke struggling big time, and id regard Clarke as the best player of spin in world cricket. he almost never even tried to waltz down the pitch at him, its the first time ive ever seen Clarke get neutralised by a spin bowler.
so whilst it looked a fairly ordinary performance at first glance, i think it is actually much better than i was giving credit for when ive thought about it in more depth. hes only 21, so hes got plenty of time to learn the big ripping deliveries. and who knows, at test level he might play with more freedom. in one day games you cant really use the big ripper for fear of wides. and bowl a load of wides and youll get dropped and lose your chance to establish yourself. so maybe he is just taking baby steps to begin with. quite sensible too.
as a bonus, he batted well too, 31 not out off of 23 balls, unfortunately England still lost by 4 runs. hes cemented himself onto the teamsheet for the next match, lets hope he has a good series. the real question is whether he gets a go in the test series in South Africa. id really like to see them try him out for the full series, using 2 spinners. England havent had that sort of attack in a long time, and the 2 spinners along with the best swing attack in world cricket would make us even more formidable with the ball.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Hope the missus does not read that, you might be in some hot water here. You will have to be a good spin doctor to explain it is not what it seems.
someblokecalleddave;363822 said:
Hope the missus does not read that, you might be in some hot water here. You will have to be a good spin doctor to explain it is not what it seems.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I'm sure she'll be okay with that! You're on here early - are you at work?
Other than that I just found this it describes the 'Classic Slider' just as we did last night http://www.cricketweb.net/resources/coaching/spintowin.php
The Flipper description on this resource is completely wrong and is right at the bottom - strikes me as another case of a Wrist Spinner that hasn't got the Flipper and describes it in terms of there only being one type of Flipper.
sadspinner;363825 said:
I'm sure she'll be okay with that! You're on here early - are you at work?
Other than that I just found this it describes the 'Classic Slider' just as we did last night http://www.cricketweb.net/resources/coaching/spintowin.php
The Flipper description on this resource is completely wrong and is right at the bottom - strikes me as another case of a Wrist Spinner that hasn't got the Flipper and describes it in terms of there only being one type of Flipper.
gundalf7
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
just shows how much people are still confused by leg spin that all these deliveries are so shrouded in mystery when in reality they are fairly simple.
Anyway rashid bowled fairly well for a odi spinner really as accuracy is the name of the game. It is a slight worry when you see that the english leggies don't seem to be really able to rip a ball well.
I'm finally bowling again even though my finger still is not in great condition, though i seem to be bowling pretty well with the ball. Played last sunday bowled 6 overs for 21 (35 over game) unfortunately didn't get a wicket due to the umpire not hearing an obvious edge and a little bit of bad luck. Bowled fairly well to much legside but was the most economical bowler as the oppo scored 5.5 an over for the innings.
Anyway dave the highlights of todays game will be online tomorrow on channel 5's catch up service on their website.
just shows how much people are still confused by leg spin that all these deliveries are so shrouded in mystery when in reality they are fairly simple.
Anyway rashid bowled fairly well for a odi spinner really as accuracy is the name of the game. It is a slight worry when you see that the english leggies don't seem to be really able to rip a ball well.
I'm finally bowling again even though my finger still is not in great condition, though i seem to be bowling pretty well with the ball. Played last sunday bowled 6 overs for 21 (35 over game) unfortunately didn't get a wicket due to the umpire not hearing an obvious edge and a little bit of bad luck. Bowled fairly well to much legside but was the most economical bowler as the oppo scored 5.5 an over for the innings.
Anyway dave the highlights of todays game will be online tomorrow on channel 5's catch up service on their website.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Yeah I've just noticed it's on C5 in a few minutes so I'm going to get a video and watch and record it downstairs in the kitchen where we've got an old tele. I actually prefer the commentary and coverage on the C5 to the SKY coverage I prefer Mark Richards and Boycott to those blokes on the SKY highlights program. That old fast bowler bloke is so dreary.
gundalf7;363834 said:
Yeah I've just noticed it's on C5 in a few minutes so I'm going to get a video and watch and record it downstairs in the kitchen where we've got an old tele. I actually prefer the commentary and coverage on the C5 to the SKY coverage I prefer Mark Richards and Boycott to those blokes on the SKY highlights program. That old fast bowler bloke is so dreary.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I do not know if I am allowed to provide this link. There are some deliveries by rashid. England v Australia 1st ODI Highlights 2009 The Oval
I do not know if I am allowed to provide this link. There are some deliveries by rashid. England v Australia 1st ODI Highlights 2009 The Oval
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
At last I've done it. I've shot video footage of me explaining and demonstrating A la Terry Jenner all 5 of the Flipper variations -
Warne/Benaud Flipper (backspin)
Grimmett variant (Back-spin)
Off-spinning Flipper
The Wrong Wrong Un (Leg-Spinning Flipper) aka Gipper
The Mystery Ball (Top Spinning)
I'll try and get some of them uploaded tonight and you can let me know what you reckon.
At last I've done it. I've shot video footage of me explaining and demonstrating A la Terry Jenner all 5 of the Flipper variations -
Warne/Benaud Flipper (backspin)
Grimmett variant (Back-spin)
Off-spinning Flipper
The Wrong Wrong Un (Leg-Spinning Flipper) aka Gipper
The Mystery Ball (Top Spinning)
I'll try and get some of them uploaded tonight and you can let me know what you reckon.
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