Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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S slingylefty So, reading through recent messages, your still working on your approach and action through the crease? Are you still trying to come to the crease at a fair speed - more "MacGill" than "Warne"? I liked your point relating to flight and loop, what I'd say about this is...
Personally, I think this is the Holy Grail of wrist-spin, the ability to bowl at a decent pace but with crazy revs on the ball. Warne for instance I think bowled at an average pace of around 57 mph. When you think that his initial flight was above the eye-line of the batsman and yet it dropped well short of where they expected. What's going on? If you read accounts of batters facing him and similar with Abdul Qadir, they say, the line would have suggested a fullish ball, but then it just falls out of the sky way short of where you've predicted. Connected to this and overall development, I really don't rate the Googly as an early option for a variation to bowl, I think it's way too fraught with problems (Googly Syndrome) and a far better option is the Top-Spinner. One of the reasons for advocating so strongly for the Top-Spinner is that it encourages the development of spinning the ball harder in order that you look for that dip that's spoken about when facing Warne and Qadir. My own experience is that once you've got the Top-Spinner under your belt, the Googly is only a subtle change of the wrist and comes relatively easy without focusing any practice on it. In the same way a small leg-break is as easily executed as a change up with only subtle changes in the wrist and because the emphasis is on the over-spin and dip it is very different to your big turning leg-break. Having the ability to get the ball to dip with increased revs is very much a game changer.

Another up-shot of having the Top-Spinner as your second delivery as such, is that that ability to produce the small leg-break and the Googly with so much over-spin comes with such subtle changes in the wrist & your variations are not easily picked.

I think your current exploration of the stand-start drill might be fruitful in terms of reflecting on the need to run-in at speed. It'll be interesting to hear what conclusions you draw from it?
 
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SomeblokecalledDave. said:
S slingylefty So, reading through recent messages, your still working on your approach and action through the crease? Are you still trying to come to the crease at a fair speed - more "MacGill" than "Warne"? I liked your point relating to flight and loop, what I'd say about this is...
Personally, I think this is the Holy Grail of wrist-spin, the ability to bowl at a decent pace but with crazy revs on the ball. Warne for instance I think bowled at an average pace of around 57 mph. When you think that his initial flight was above the eye-line of the batsman and yet it dropped well short of where they expected. What's going on? If you read accounts of batters facing him and similar with Abdul Qadir, they say, the line would have suggested a fullish ball, but then it just falls out of the sky way short of where you've predicted. Connected to this and overall development, I really don't rate the Googly as an early option for a variation to bowl, I think it's way too fraught with problems (Googly Syndrome) and a far better option is the Top-Spinner. One of the reasons for advocating so strongly for the Top-Spinner is that it encourages the development of spinning the ball harder in order that you look for that dip that's spoken about when facing Warne and Qadir. My own experience is that once you've got the Top-Spinner under your belt, the Googly is only a subtle change of the wrist and comes relatively easy without focusing any practice on it. In the same way a small leg-break is as easily executed as a change up with only subtle changes in the wrist and because the emphasis is on the over-spin and dip it is very different to your big turning leg-break. Having the ability to get the ball to dip with increased revs is very much a game changer.

Another up-shot of having the Top-Spinner as your second delivery as such, is that that ability to produce the small leg-break and the Googly with so much over-spin comes with such subtle changes in the wrist & your variations are not easily picked.

I think your current exploration of the stand-start drill might be fruitful in terms of reflecting on the need to run-in at speed. It'll be interesting to hear what conclusions you draw from it?
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I’d call that the holy grail of spin in general to be honest.

I’ve been working hard on being able to bowl my off-spin at a good pace while being able to keep some topspin on the ball. I’m getting a lot better at it through practice thankfully because I’m getting a lot of chances to bowl on turf wickets which I have to bowl a bit quicker on than I’ve always bowled.

I got a caught and bowled in a scratch match today by bowling a good top spinner to a lefty that was slogging me, he set up to slog, noticed it was a slightly different pace, went to check drive it, it dipped on him and didn’t turn away (I was managing to absolutely rag it sideways on my stock ball) and he chipped it straight to me. Love getting wickets like that.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, being able to get a batsman out in the air is a more useful skill than getting them out off the wicket. Speed variation and dip are way more consistent in all conditions than turn is. Turn definitely helps if it’s there but even then, beating someone in flight makes it way easier to beat them off the pitch too.
 
SomeblokecalledDave. said:
S slingylefty So, reading through recent messages, your still working on your approach and action through the crease? Are you still trying to come to the crease at a fair speed - more "MacGill" than "Warne"? I liked your point relating to flight and loop, what I'd say about this is...
Personally, I think this is the Holy Grail of wrist-spin, the ability to bowl at a decent pace but with crazy revs on the ball. Warne for instance I think bowled at an average pace of around 57 mph. When you think that his initial flight was above the eye-line of the batsman and yet it dropped well short of where they expected. What's going on? If you read accounts of batters facing him and similar with Abdul Qadir, they say, the line would have suggested a fullish ball, but then it just falls out of the sky way short of where you've predicted. Connected to this and overall development, I really don't rate the Googly as an early option for a variation to bowl, I think it's way too fraught with problems (Googly Syndrome) and a far better option is the Top-Spinner. One of the reasons for advocating so strongly for the Top-Spinner is that it encourages the development of spinning the ball harder in order that you look for that dip that's spoken about when facing Warne and Qadir. My own experience is that once you've got the Top-Spinner under your belt, the Googly is only a subtle change of the wrist and comes relatively easy without focusing any practice on it. In the same way a small leg-break is as easily executed as a change up with only subtle changes in the wrist and because the emphasis is on the over-spin and dip it is very different to your big turning leg-break. Having the ability to get the ball to dip with increased revs is very much a game changer.

Another up-shot of having the Top-Spinner as your second delivery as such, is that that ability to produce the small leg-break and the Googly with so much over-spin comes with such subtle changes in the wrist & your variations are not easily picked.

I think your current exploration of the stand-start drill might be fruitful in terms of reflecting on the need to run-in at speed. It'll be interesting to hear what conclusions you draw from it?
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someblokecalleddave someblokecalleddave - I am still working on my new approach. I am walking in a few steps (like Warne) but coming in diagonally to the crease. This approach from the side is what is getting me consistently side on at load up. Once I am at the side on position, I plant my front foot across, transfer body weight (head) to be over the line of front foot and then proceed to pivot and deliver. I am also trying to slow down a bit so that I can finish ripping the ball. My videos showed clearly I am letting the ball go without fully ripping it.
The only thing from McGill's bowling video that I am incorporating was the body pivot. As he mentions in his masterclass, I am imagining a box that I need to get my back leg over. Doing this is ensuring a full pivot. The stand-start drill for me is essentially an exercise to get the pivot going. I am currently doing that in my garage in front of a mirror.
Unfortunately, our nets aren't fully ready. They were supposed to be done with the work by the 1st but the contractor had delays and it is now slated to reopen on the 10th. I already lost 2 weeks and I am spending this down time practicing the pivot and ripping the ball in hand.
I had an umpiring assignment last weekend. It was a high scoring match. Both teams scored 200+ runs in 20 overs and the match went down to the last ball. With 3 needed off 1 ball, the fielder misjudged a catch and the ball went over his head for a 4. It was very stressful for me as an umpire because fights and arguments broke off regularily and 11 players screaming at me for every appeal. I literally had to stop a fight between 2 players :) Due to a very dry September, the ground was bone dry and any shot hit over the 30 yard line was a definite boundary. All bowlers got tonked except one off spinner. He amazingly stuck to one simple mantra - flight the ball slowly so that it induces a dip and land it just outside the off stump. Batsmen really seemed to have no clue on how to attack him. He bagged 3 wickets, 2 from outside edges from ugly swipes across the line and one for a LBW off a switch hit. It was great to watch this from the other end of the pitch. His spell proved to be the difference between winning and losing sides.
 
Got my first game tomorrow, however it is on syntho. Will update you guys on how I go. Hoping the changes I made during the masterclass make a difference in games.
 
Leggy88 said:
Got my first game tomorrow, however it is on syntho. Will update you guys on how I go. Hoping the changes I made during the masterclass make a difference in games.
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Good luck Leggy88 Leggy88 .
Our nets are finally ready. I am going tomorrow to work on the new approach. I am also targeting to play matches starting from December (I am traveling for a month in November). It's been 6 months since I switched from medium pace to wrist spin and I am at a point I need match time too. Can't be sitting in nets for too long :)
 
Thanks man. Yeah games are entirely different to nets, gotta get used to it.
I bowled 3 overs in a 40 over game, first over a maiden, landed every ball, then the other batsman was facing me for my other 2 overs and my figures went to 0/19, he just kept hitting me straight down the ground because the ball wasn't spinning (syntho). Thankfully I saved my spot in the side in the second innings with a 55*.
Performance wise I think I bowled fine, only one real bad ball (just one I dropped short for four), they were either good shots aided by the flatness of the syntho wicket or poor fielding (ball went through some dudes legs for a boundary twice). Statistics don't reflect this so I think we as leg spinners just need to focus on how we have bowled, not what the results were.
 
slingylefty said:
You are spot on here. We have a left arm orthodox spinner in our club who walks in but gets completely side on at the crease. To get that, he rotates a full 90 degrees, and we can clearly see he puts in a lot of twist to his entire body to get side on. And then he does another 90 degree turn as he delivers. All in all, he loses a lot of momentum and he is not a big turner of the ball.

For me, walking/running in from the side is helping me get to position easily. My shoulders and hips are already at an angle and it is easy to get fully side on. Kuldeep does the same and I have been observing his action. I am now doing the Stand-start drill (by Beau Casson) at home and also working on the body pivot suggested by McGill.
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For a left-arm wristspinner bowling over the wicket, this makes a lot of sense - while conventional spin wisdom is that you should have everything moving towards the target, no left arm wristie that i've seen does this. When over the wicket, I start a couple of yards wide of the crease , and focus on a point about 2ft outside the righthander's off stump, roughly where the keeper would be (I stick a cone there if I'm bowling on my own in nets). If the ball is turning, I'm looking to pitch it outside off on a fourth/fifth stump line; I want a straight /non-turning ball to threaten the outside edge. I don't bowl a googly (yet) with my main variation being a fingerspun legbreak, this doesn't turn anywhere near as much as my stock ball but the angle is already taking it away from the batsman, so it doesn't really have to.

Question for you - when do you bowl around the wicket to a right-hander? You don't see a lot of this angle these days - Kuldeep used to come around a bit when he started, Shamsi never did as far as I could see, and more googly-dependent bowlers like Noor/Waqar Salamkeil seem to stick to over.

I bowl left arm fingerspin as well , so tend to come round when I want to mix fingerspin/wristspin. I've been making a big effort to get used to bowling around and mixing them up, I used to struggle to produce a wristspinner out of nowhere after a few overs , so have made a point of practicing round the wicket and alternating each delivery.
 
Fleetwood said:
For a left-arm wristspinner bowling over the wicket, this makes a lot of sense - while conventional spin wisdom is that you should have everything moving towards the target, no left arm wristie that i've seen does this. When over the wicket, I start a couple of yards wide of the crease , and focus on a point about 2ft outside the righthander's off stump, roughly where the keeper would be (I stick a cone there if I'm bowling on my own in nets). If the ball is turning, I'm looking to pitch it outside off on a fourth/fifth stump line; I want a straight /non-turning ball to threaten the outside edge. I don't bowl a googly (yet) with my main variation being a fingerspun legbreak, this doesn't turn anywhere near as much as my stock ball but the angle is already taking it away from the batsman, so it doesn't really have to.

Question for you - when do you bowl around the wicket to a right-hander? You don't see a lot of this angle these days - Kuldeep used to come around a bit when he started, Shamsi never did as far as I could see, and more googly-dependent bowlers like Noor/Waqar Salamkeil seem to stick to over.

I bowl left arm fingerspin as well , so tend to come round when I want to mix fingerspin/wristspin. I've been making a big effort to get used to bowling around and mixing them up, I used to struggle to produce a wristspinner out of nowhere after a few overs , so have made a point of practicing round the wicket and alternating each delivery.
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I could see 2 scenarios where you’d bowl left arm leggies around the wicket to a right hander:

1. There’s a big patch of rough well outside the right handers off stump that you could hit. Or just a shit spot on the pitch

2. The batsman is very comfortable working you off of his legs. Going around and pitching it outside their eyeline while still having a chance at their stumps.
 
slingylefty said:
2) Once I am at the crease, I now have a small jump and I have this quick rotation of hands before I lift the non bowling arm high. This jump + hand rotation is helping me in a) spending a bit more time at the crease and b) getting my front foot slightly across so that it sets up my body pivot. Also, my head and front shoulder now feel a lot more in line. Overall, this step now acts as a brake and also gets various levers of my body in position for the release.
3) After getting fully side on with front foot slightly across, my head now looks straight at the target. I now execute the final step. Using the front leg as a brace, I am now trying to raise my back foot as suggested by MacGill by thinking that I am lifting the leg over a box and not just turning. This is the part I need to be more consistent. To me, this is one very important step. By lifting the back leg (knee) higher, I get the back shoulder every so slightly higher. That is when I realized what Warne mentioned in his masterclass (think high and spin up).
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Apart from the wider angle, I don't consciously do anything to get side on - I need to video my action again as I think it's probably changed a bit. I've sort of come from the opposite direction to you, as rather than being a medium pacer who's had to learn to slow down, I've been a slower spinner who has been trying to speed up - I've gone from a Warne-style walk up to a MacGill style runup, and feel much more accurate as a result, without losing any spin. I'm probably getting more side-on in the jump than I think, plus you have to remember that thanks to the over-the-wicket angle, even if my back foot is at 90 degrees to the direction I'm bowling, it won't be parallel to the crease, but pointing a bit forward, if that makes sense?
 
doc8176 said:
I could see 2 scenarios where you’d bowl left arm leggies around the wicket to a right hander:

1. There’s a big patch of rough well outside the right handers off stump that you could hit. Or just a shit spot on the pitch

2. The batsman is very comfortable working you off of his legs. Going around and pitching it outside their eyeline while still having a chance at their stumps.
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1 - I wish! Our home pitch is synth anyway , but I'd love a bit of rough out there, you righties don't know how lucky you are
2 - This is probably the main reason - it's a very different angle, one that you don't really get from any other form of bowling, you can pitch it so wide and still threaten the stumps. I've tried it especially against batsmen who are quick to get down the pitch at me - they seem to be less keen to do so if it's well wide of off. maybe because they don't have the pads as a second line of defence. The drawback is that if you're at all short, it's getting launched, but tbh, that goes for over the wicket as well for a leftie
 
Fleetwood said:
1 - I wish! Our home pitch is synth anyway , but I'd love a bit of rough out there, you righties don't know how lucky you are
2 - This is probably the main reason - it's a very different angle, one that you don't really get from any other form of bowling, you can pitch it so wide and still threaten the stumps. I've tried it especially against batsmen who are quick to get down the pitch at me - they seem to be less keen to do so if it's well wide of off. maybe because they don't have the pads as a second line of defence. The drawback is that if you're at all short, it's getting launched, but tbh, that goes for over the wicket as well for a leftie
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I’m a right arm offie so I’d use the some rough as you . Although I’m also usually on synthetic too haha.

I can usually pick pretty fast whether a batsman prefers the ball pitching outside off or on their stumps and I’ll either bowl over (around for you) or around the wicket (over for you).

I often bowl offies around the wicket if they’re strong through the off side because there’s less room for them to do so while still keeping bowled and LBW in play. So many blokes are good at cutting balls off their stumps on syntho so I’ll often do this.

I agree that bowling left arm leggies around the wicket makes it hard to walk down to it, it’s MUCH easier to miss the ball starting wide of the crease because you can miss it on both sides of the bat and be stumped.
 
Fleetwood said:
Question for you - when do you bowl around the wicket to a right-hander? You don't see a lot of this angle these days - Kuldeep used to come around a bit when he started, Shamsi never did as far as I could see, and more googly-dependent bowlers like Noor/Waqar Salamkeil seem to stick to over.
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When I first started bowling wrist spin, I went around the wicket because that would make my line consistent. However, it always felt odd regardless of how I did it (walking straight vs diagonally). The main reason everyone in my team suggested bowling around was because when I bowled over the wicket, I would just stray down the leg side and it was very difficult for me to get it landed outside off.
I made some changes to my approach that will help me get fully side on. I was watching an old video of Wasim Akram and he basically said the front arm needs to go behind the back shoulder. I am blindly following that step as I load up and as a result, my shoulders, hips etc get side on and from there, I plant the front foot a bit across. With that approach, it naturally creates that angle across to the right hander and it is much more lethal for the batsman. I am still landing it on the off stump and would really like to pitch it on the 4th or 5th stump line. I need to work on that.
You are right, I noticed Kuldeep almost always bowls over the wicket to RHB these days and it creates a lot of doubt if the batsman is not reading his hand. Same experience for me too. Batsmen who play at my level don't read off the hand and they are always unsure of what the ball does when it pitches. Last week, I bowled a batsman 2 times in the nets with a straight ball (top spin). He was just confused and I am now starting to realize the full potential of what we are practicing. I do have a googlie that I can execute consistently but I lose my pace a lot (matter of practice I guess). So, better batsmen can wait for the turn and play late.
The only time I plan to go round the wicket is when I sense the batsman has good footwork and is generally comfortable with the oblique angle from over the wicket by opening his stance. I would go around then to throw him off balance.
 
Fleetwood said:
Apart from the wider angle, I don't consciously do anything to get side on - I need to video my action again as I think it's probably changed a bit. I've sort of come from the opposite direction to you, as rather than being a medium pacer who's had to learn to slow down, I've been a slower spinner who has been trying to speed up - I've gone from a Warne-style walk up to a MacGill style runup, and feel much more accurate as a result, without losing any spin. I'm probably getting more side-on in the jump than I think, plus you have to remember that thanks to the over-the-wicket angle, even if my back foot is at 90 degrees to the direction I'm bowling, it won't be parallel to the crease, but pointing a bit forward, if that makes sense?
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Yes! It makes sense. I was way too conscious about having my back foot parallel to the crease, so much that I started to not pay attention to what I do after that and it messed up my rhythm. As mentioned in my previous reply, I now follow the little advice from Wasim Akram to get the non bowling arm behind the bowling arm/shoulder and that took care of a lot of things. I now have my front elbow leading my body and my head stays in the same line as that elbow. I actually noticed Kuldeep does something very similar (probably got that from working with Wasim at KKR). This was my big "Aha" moment and things improved radically after that. I do have some big leg spinning deliveries ending up (after spinnig) on the leg stump of a RHB and they simply swat them. But I don't have those atrocious down the leg stump wides any more :)
Yeah, to your point, for a left armer bowling over the wicket to an RHB, your backfoot may not necessarily end up parallel to the crease and it is still ok as long as your hips, shoulders line up in one plane. That revelation made me go back to over the wicket and is sort of liberating.
I am out on vacation in India for 3 weeks now. I would love to actually visit some nets in India but I just don't have that time. Once I am back in the States by mid November, i will get back to improving this muscle memory. Until then, I am carrying an old Cricket ball to keep ripping :)
 
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