Australian Politics

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Re: Australian Politics

Im not sterotyping tradespeople at all.

Im simply saying that quitting school before finishing year 12 isn't ideal, with regards to keeping all options open.
 
Re: Australian Politics

LIONS then DAYLIGHT;397432 said:
Im not sterotyping tradespeople at all.
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LIONS then DAYLIGHT;397421 said:
Sure, guys with a trade can made good money very quickly, especially when you consider most of these guys are single and don't have to support a family. However, often these guys take out big loans to buy expensive toys, so the idea that these guys 'have no debt' is simply a myth.
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I think I rest my case. Sure you can get your bogans going through the courses, but if you go into the skilled trades it's different. It is very possible to not be in debt whatsoever, you get paid to learn and you can cover your life with the minimal wages. However you can get your bogans who go out and buy the flash cars and whatnot because they have no debt, and hence they then get into debt.

Uni you have to pay off about 10k average a year. With a part time job, and quite possibly no money whatsoever from grade 12, covering living expenses while studying is not the easiest. Of course you don't have to pay it off straight away, but you are still in debt and pretty much working the equivalent of two jobs for one jobs worth of money.

LIONS then DAYLIGHT;397432 said:
Im simply saying that quitting school before finishing year 12 isn't ideal, with regards to keeping all options open.
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It isn't anymore with the QCE and whatnot in Queensland, but it was a good idea a few years ago and back. Nowdays pretty much everyone half decent stays till the end, not necessarily for an OP, but till the end regardless.

Before the new stuff though, what was the point? You are only wasting 30k a year (average) and putting off real life for another two. You could still cover year 11 and 12 in uni in half the time (but double the money) should you chose that, but if you were failing school and had no purpose there, you shouldn't be there. Get a start with real life. Just because you were failing algebra in school doesn't mean you can't succeed in the real world, you are just as valuable to society giving them electricity to their home to be able to live as the people who work out how and why electricity works.

Plus I have found some of the best and nicest blokes around have been tradies.

All in all I'm not saying quit school and go into the trades. Just do what is right for you, and don't judge other people on their decisions.
 
Re: Australian Politics

LIONS then DAYLIGHT;397421 said:
The point about the cost of accommodation and food is a valid point; however, many universities offer the option of taking courses 'externally'. Basically, they send you your textbooks and /or study guides and you complete the course at home. You may have to come to uni once a term for 'res school' and exams but generally you send your assessment in.

Not all universities offer that option, but at least 50% do.

Sure, guys with a trade can made good money very quickly, especially when you consider most of these guys are single and don't have to support a family. However, often these guys take out big loans to buy expensive toys, so the idea that these guys 'have no debt' is simply a myth.
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External study is an option. But has less range of courses, doesn't work for courses which need facilities etc. External courses also often take twice as long. I'm not saying uni is bad in any way.

What i am saying though is that stereotyping all tradies as blockheads is ridiculous. Of course all the blockheads are not going to uni but now many tradies earn as much or more over their career as a uni grad.
 
Re: Australian Politics

So are we basing what option to do, or which option is better, based on how much one earns?

Most tradies I have dealt with (ie, the ones who have worked on jobs around my house) either lack common sense or just couldn't give a stuff. Things like saying they will be at my house at 10 am, then rocking up at 4 pm (not even bothering to call to let me know0; parking in front of people's driveways so the neighbours can't get out with their car; doing a job and leaving saw dust/rubbish around.

Most of them are young blokes; the older guys seem to have pride in their work. Maybe it is just where I live.

Sure, tradies will earn more than a uni graduate, but generally, a guy with a degree, will have more options open to him with regards to future pathways. Once the graduate has experience, then generally they will start climbing up the wage ladder; generally you get to a point where if you want to earn more you need further qualifications.

I don't see the point in quitting school at year 10, doing a trade, and then pigeon holing yourself as a bricklayer for the next 20 years, because that is what your basically doing.

Many young people have chosen to do a trade, that is fine, but you really wonder what the motive is behind this? Is it money? Because sure as hell, I wouldn't want to be slamming down bricks at 30 years of age from 7 am until 5pm, before having skin lesions removed in my lunch break.

Most degrees leave your options relatively open with your job options.

Graduate wages aren't anything to write home about, but in time generally the wages will increase, especially with additional qualifications.

To me it is sad that many people pass up a chance to get educated, simply because they look at how much they will earn. Life isn't just about how much money you earn.
 
Re: Australian Politics

LIONS then DAYLIGHT;397452 said:
So are we basing what option to do, or which option is better, based on how much one earns?

Most tradies I have dealt with (ie, the ones who have worked on jobs around my house) either lack common sense or just couldn't give a stuff. Things like saying they will be at my house at 10 am, then rocking up at 4 pm (not even bothering to call to let me know0; parking in front of people's driveways so the neighbours can't get out with their car; doing a job and leaving saw dust/rubbish around.

Most of them are young blokes; the older guys seem to have pride in their work. Maybe it is just where I live.

Sure, tradies will earn more than a uni graduate, but generally, a guy with a degree, will have more options open to him with regards to future pathways. Once the graduate has experience, then generally they will start climbing up the wage ladder; generally you get to a point where if you want to earn more you need further qualifications.

I don't see the point in quitting school at year 10, doing a trade, and then pigeon holing yourself as a bricklayer for the next 20 years, because that is what your basically doing.

Many young people have chosen to do a trade, that is fine, but you really wonder what the motive is behind this? Is it money? Because sure as hell, I wouldn't want to be slamming down bricks at 30 years of age from 7 am until 5pm, before having skin lesions removed in my lunch break.

Most degrees leave your options relatively open with your job options.

Graduate wages aren't anything to write home about, but in time generally the wages will increase, especially with additional qualifications.

To me it is sad that many people pass up a chance to get educated, simply because they look at how much they will earn. Life isn't just about how much money you earn.
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You are mostly talking about the unskilled trades there. I agree, the hard labour jobs can be rewarding money wise but you are going nowhere. These unskilled jobs are for those who would otherwise be dole bludgers, and have no hope elsewhere. Not everyone is intellectually smart enough though, those guys get those jobs because it suits them.

The skilled trades I would argue actually supply more options than uni would. If you become an electrician you can work worldwide in so many different areas. You can work for electrical supplier companies, household electrics, train station electrics, contractors and so many more. Then it's not that far after that to get an easy promotion up to electrical design and electrical engineering. Energex in Queensland is very good for that sort of thing, after only 2 years out of your apprenticeship if you are good enough you can find yourself leading sub teams and start designing how people get their electricity. Electricians don't stop at your everyday sparky, and I do admit I've had my run ins with plenty of not so bright ones, but the skilled trades have some very big futures attached to them - but they generally aren't in contact with the general public.

Obviously electricians aren't the only ones. Mechanics, plumbers, even roadworkers can move on from your run of the mill lacky that runs from house to house doing your dirty jobs, to finding a nichè and ordering around those other labourers.

You get a lot of the idiots ending up as the bottom rung of the skilled trades because that is as high as they can possibly get. I think you are forgetting that there are other tradespeople who are their bosses.

I'm not saying don't go to uni because it's not worth it, but I am saying that there are other routes that are possibly more efficient than trying to live the uni life.

Hell, Jeremy Clarkson is a Doctor of Engineering (HonDEng), and he sure as hell didn't go to university for that. Very crude example, but you don't have to go to uni to get the same qualifications, plus at the same time you are getting their with better pay and better home life.
 
Re: Australian Politics

It depends on what career path they take. Some tradies will be stuck at that base level simply because they can't get any better.

If they choose the right paths, and there are many, then I would say they can be earning the same amount. Everything is relative though, you can't compare everyone to everyone. I would stay, instead, that going into trades is more likely than not going to secure you a good income for the rest of your life.

Going to uni doesn't mean you are going to get a job once you graduate, however if you get an apprenticeship you know you have a job after you finish, and you can only get better from there. I personally know more than a few uni grads who aren't in the jobs they like because they didn't quite go well enough at uni as they hoped. If you don't go well enough at an apprenticeship you just spend another year on it, and it doesn't affect your career choices as much, and most of all doesn't cost you another 10k for that re-education.

At that age I would say that both would be earning similar. There is just more than one way of getting there.

All in all I think a person in the trades becomes better disciplined and more likeable person by the end, but then again I do like my personalities as down to earth, honest people.
 
Re: Australian Politics

It is, but in a world now where it is possible to change jobs once every 2 years, I guess it's to be expected.

I would like myself to eventually end up at uni, but I haven't started there. There are no set rules saying you have to go to uni straight after school. If you leave a little bit of time you can have a better idea of what you do and don't want to do.

You can also say to yourself 'I don't want to be stuck in this hell hole of a job for the rest of my life, time to go to uni' and that will surely motivate you towards good marks.

In a time when going to uni is easier than ever, it must be remembered that it isn't the only option for those who do well at school.
 
Re: Australian Politics

Interesting debate, although it now seems to be about education. Personally I think far too many generalisations have been drawn and worse still there is no use in anecdotal information when inference on national trends. If you are that intersted in the wage differentials there are several sources of dta and paper which can be accessed, generally free. These include the NCVER, ABS, DEEWR and many more.

To go to the state of politics in this country it is simply that we gets the politicians that we deserve, in that this generation (Y) and the two preceeding are known for the self centred opinions (whether rightly or not) and the lack of interest in social and political issues. This serves to marginalise the debate which will result in the dominance of fundamental and/or highly opinionated individuals, and will be represented as mains stream in place of the actual mainsteream which appears to be apathy.

There were some points made about wealthy individuals and there are tweo clear ly defined schools of thought on the issue. There are those who resent the imposition of government on theri "hard-earned" and those who are more socially oriented. Neither are completely right or wrong and elements of both systems are important to society. This is adebate better left to its own forum as it is complex and ultimately indivualistically defined (in that it requires a subjective deciions making process on welfare and other social issues).

To sum the final point I found a relevant quote the other day. Take it for what it is, an observation and not a universally correct one but that was not the intention:
“The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.” (G,K,Chesterton)
 
Re: Australian Politics

Very good post, and you are definitely right about the guess work given for wages and salaries.

Very opinionated discussion, but I guess it would have to be. There is no way you could correctly analyse which way is better, and if you did then you would be suggesting that society is better off without one or the other.

Shall we return to a more political debate?
 
Re: Australian Politics

Labour copied Libs when they had no policies and leader at the turn of the millenium and now libs are copying labour:( and then labour are pointing out the holes in their own policies and then when the liberals say point out the hole in the policy applies to both copies labour sets into motion it's PR ridicule machine.
 
Re: Australian Politics

now for state politics.
Generally after a time the public votes the opposite party into states than federal and then they fight and get nothing done and just tend to want money from each other.

Similar to now which shows that state and federal labour are drifting apart.
 
Re: Australian Politics

If you look back over time generally people elect state governments from the opposite party to the federal govt. Causing all sorts of problems. Now labour looks stupid because the states are still arguing even though they are the same party.
 
Re: Australian Politics

And then you have Anna Bligh, who not only looks like Pauline Hanson with a broom shoved up her arse (and not just the handle either) and with about he same amount of idea of how to run a state as a Indian cricket player not knowing how to cheat.
 
Re: Australian Politics

Boris;397641 said:
And then you have Anna Bligh, who not only looks like Pauline Hanson with a broom shoved up her arse (and not just the handle either) and with about he same amount of idea of how to run a state as a Indian cricket player not knowing how to cheat.
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Steady on there Boris. You have far from the worst representation at the state level at the moment. Look directly south and dispair. Console yourself withthe fact that your state is not avoiding bankruptcy day to day on pokie money.
 
Re: Australian Politics

I love how in Politics anything that goes wrong is because of what happened when the other party was in charge, down here we have had Labour for a long time, they have done nothing and yet still blaming the Kennett Government for all the problems :D
 
Re: Australian Politics

Thumbs up;397648 said:
Steady on there Boris. You have far from the worst representation at the state level at the moment. Look directly south and dispair. Console yourself withthe fact that your state is not avoiding bankruptcy day to day on pokie money.
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Hahaha.

Pretty sure we passed the bankruptcy mark about 10 years ago. :D
 
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