Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

[lewissaffin]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Mate, I am a bit confused Chris Harris played for New Zealand and Paul Harris plays for South Africa. I must admit his form has not been anything that he is capable. He is a match winner when used properly and not bowling into the legstump.

Christ, there are too many Harrises floating around. I did indeed mean Paul Harris. My bad, sorry

 

[AB1]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I need to look no further than Harmison & Panesar, they got plaudits for years virtually saying they were the best thing since sliced bread,yet they have never been better than "crap"

PS ...and you poms have the nerve to criticise Hauritz,....he has forgotten more about spinning a ball than Panesar has ever known.

hahaha - stop it. I can't take anymore!

 

[lewissaffin]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I need to look no further than Harmison & Panesar, they got plaudits for years virtually saying they were the best thing since sliced bread,yet they have never been better than "crap"

Steve Harmison ripped South Africa apart in 2004, ripped the West Indies apart in the 04/05 winter (remember that 7-15 spell and the subsequent six-man slip corden?) and then set about ripping Australia apart during the 2005 Ashes. He was England's best bowler for the year and a half before the 2005 Ashes.

As for Panesar, he was one of the world's best spinners in 2008. Graeme Swann has completely outdone Panesar now, but Panesar was very good.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Steve Harmison ripped South Africa apart in 2004, ripped the West Indies apart in the 04/05 winter (remember that 7-15 spell and the subsequent six-man slip corden?) and then set about ripping Australia apart during the 2005 Ashes. He was England's best bowler for the year and a half before the 2005 Ashes.

As for Panesar, he was one of the world's best spinners in 2008. Graeme Swann has completely outdone Panesar now, but Panesar was very good.

Yep. Harmison was the key to England's success in 2005 (along with Flintoff, Jones and Hoggard). They were as good a pace attack as we've faced for a long time. All offered something different.

If you ask any first class or test player if they enjoy facing a fit and fired up Harmison, the answer will be "hell no". He is about the most awkward bowler in the world to face (very similar line to Jason Gillespie, but taller). He's always in at the upper body at pace, and he had a cracker bouncer.

Ishant Sharma is probably the most "overrated". Think everyone got a bit too excited about a tall Indian paceman. He still has the time and skill to develop though.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Harmison had a spell when everything went right, hence the rise to the no.1 ranking. I still think he has a lot of the ingredients needed to be a world class bowler but he lacks the mental side of the game. When it clicks he's a handful but as we've seen those days are fewer and further between.

Panesar was widely tipped but I think that many were aware of his shortcomings from an early stage.

Ishant Sharma suffered from the Indian hype machine (as other players have done) - again, the realists can see/saw where his flaws lie and what he needs to improve on.

To be honest, there aren't really that many bowlers who are over rated. Most are aware of their weaknesses and if they aren't, most batsmen certainly are. Do you think Anderson is really that over rated when his nickname is 'daisy'?

 

[thommy_rissole]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

This is where you pull my arguments apart though about players performing in the absence of others.

This here is just an example and please take it for what it is:

Brett Lee and Stuart Clark have both performed better than Peter Siddle/Doug Bollinger/Ben Hilfenhaus etc in the past, and perhaps have played better (in the past) than any of them ever had. It was unfortunate that they missed out and others rightly capitalised.

Ryan Harris has done the same here, but on lesser terms. There is no way that Siddle or any of the other bowlers mentioned around here can say they are better than Lee or Clark, simply because of time and experience. Therefore he is much easier to just write off because of injury and replace and not expect to give him his place back. It's harder to write off a 33 year old bowler injury stricken with 310 wickets than a 21 year injury stricken one bowler with an average of 35.

Therefore Harris was in the right place at the right time, and according to your own logic deserves to keep his spot.

Remember this is the international thread, and I'm only using this as an example to show that he is not overrated enough to be 'The World's Most Overrated Bowler', so Thommy Rissole... may not be possible for you to reply to that

So, Brett Lee & Stuart Clark > Siddle, Hilfenhous, Johnson, Harris & McKay 'simply because of time and experience'.

I know it is off-topic but that comment is astounding. Even from a Lee brown-noser like yourself bore-is.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

So, Brett Lee & Stuart Clark > Siddle, Hilfenhous, Johnson, Harris & McKay 'simply because of time and experience'.

I know it is off-topic but that comment is astounding. Even from a Lee brown-noser like yourself bore-is.

And once again you fail to see the point. The point is not in what the example actually is, but what it points to.

It is harder for new bowler to win a spot against a player of 70 Tests and nearly 200 ODIs, and it is easier to knock off a bowler of 10 Tests and 15 ODIs. Don't worry about names, that's the point.

Therefore for Ryan Harris to come along, it's not that astounding for him to knock off someone like Siddle during his injury, he has not played enough to be considered a regular and his stats prove it.

Eddie argued against that with his first post, but he used the same argument I am using now against me, so I think it's only fair for me to point that out that he was contradicting himself, which is fine.

In the end it all comes down to the fact that Ryan Harris isn't overrated and shouldn't be on this thread.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Ishant Sharma suffered from the Indian hype machine (as other players have done) - again, the realists can see/saw where his flaws lie and what he needs to improve on.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of being overrated though? Having so much backing and not being able to perform to it?

I really liked Sharma when he first started, but as is such with Indian fast bowlers he broke down.

I would have to call him very overrated.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

So, Brett Lee & Stuart Clark > Siddle, Hilfenhous, Johnson, Harris & McKay 'simply because of time and experience'.

I know it is off-topic but that comment is astounding. Even from a Lee brown-noser like yourself bore-is.

The thing with bowlers is averages dont always tell the whole story. I was never a massive Lee fan, but his place in a bowling attack comprising McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne was perfect. And that's what makes most bowlers brilliant, the team they bowl with. Lee was much better when he could be used as a strike/shock bowler, rather than the "main man" (in my opinion).

This attack was as good an attack as has ever played in world cricket. Almost perfectly balanced. I was less of a fan of Lee when he didnt have the other three there with him, but the same could be said of any bowler in that situation.


I think Lee sits in the second tier of great Australian pace bowlers. The top tier includes only a few:

McGrath
Lillee
Lindwall
McKenzie
Davidson
Reid

Lee sits with guys like Hughes, McDermott, Gillespie, Thommo etc. No shame in that.

 

[thommy_rissole]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

And once again you fail to see the point. The point is not in what the example actually is, but what it points to.

It is harder for new bowler to win a spot against a player of 70 Tests and nearly 200 ODIs, and it is easier to knock off a bowler of 10 Tests and 15 ODIs. Don't worry about names, that's the point.

Therefore for Ryan Harris to come along, it's not that astounding for him to knock off someone like Siddle during his injury, he has not played enough to be considered a regular and his stats prove it.

Eddie argued against that with his first post, but he used the same argument I am using now against me, so I think it's only fair for me to point that out that he was contradicting himself, which is fine.

In the end it all comes down to the fact that Ryan Harris isn't overrated and shouldn't be on this thread.

I may in fact once again miss the point, but once again you bash away at the keyboard and come up with piles of words which don't make sense.

For example:

‘The point is not in what the example actually is, but what it points to.’ - it points to me doing this and a lot of this

Excuse me for missing the point but I find your posts are very hard to decipher. It is like there is a cryptic clue in there that I am missing. I will ask all other posters if they understand what point Boris is trying to make? I will happily accept all criticisms put towards me as I, right now, have very little idea as to what point you are trying to make in regards to bowlers being over-rated.

I will have a rough guess as to what you are trying to get across, albeit in a very monotonous tone.

From what I can gather thus far from the previous 3000 posts of yours: -
- Brett Lee isn't overrated because he played for so long
- Peter Siddle isn't overrated because he hasn't played enough
- Ryan Harris isn't overrated because he hasn't played enough
- Eddie contradicted himself
- Stu Clark isn't overrated because he is old in age
- I'm an idiot because I miss the point again
- Everyone from Queensland should be playing for Australia
- Ashley Noffke is a god

 

[thommy_rissole]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

The thing with bowlers is averages dont always tell the whole story. I was never a massive Lee fan, but his place in a bowling attack comprising McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne was perfect. And that's what makes most bowlers brilliant, the team they bowl with. Lee was much better when he could be used as a strike/shock bowler, rather than the "main man" (in my opinion).

This attack was as good an attack as has ever played in world cricket. Almost perfectly balanced. I was less of a fan of Lee when he didnt have the other three there with him, but the same could be said of any bowler in that situation.


I think Lee sits in the second tier of great Australian pace bowlers. The top tier includes only a few:

McGrath
Lillee
Lindwall
McKenzie
Davidson
Reid

Lee sits with guys like Hughes, McDermott, Gillespie, Thommo etc. No shame in that.

I agree CJ, I do however get annoyed when people put Lee in the same class as the McGraths and Lillee's.

Which then leads to him being over-rated.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I may in fact once again miss the point, but once again you bash away at the keyboard and come up with piles of words which don't make sense.

For example:

‘The point is not in what the example actually is, but what it points to.’ - it points to me doing this and a lot of this

Excuse me for missing the point but I find your posts are very hard to decipher. It is like there is a cryptic clue in there that I am missing. I will ask all other posters if they understand what point Boris is trying to make? I will happily accept all criticisms put towards me as I, right now, have very little idea as to what point you are trying to make in regards to bowlers being over-rated.

I will have a rough guess as to what you are trying to get across, albeit in a very monotonous tone.

From what I can gather thus far from the previous 3000 posts of yours: -
- Brett Lee isn't overrated because he played for so long
- Peter Siddle isn't overrated because he hasn't played enough
- Ryan Harris isn't overrated because he hasn't played enough
- Eddie contradicted himself
- Stu Clark isn't overrated because he is old in age
- I'm an idiot because I miss the point again
- Everyone from Queensland should be playing for Australia
- Ashley Noffke is a god

Trying to stay on topic here, some of this is probably for the off topic area of the site, but I will bite to the everyone from Queensland should be playing for Australia thing - very much untrue. I've pushed more NSW players than Queenslanders in my time here. Nofke was easily the best bowler in the country a couple of seasons in a row, but last season he was mostly rubbish. Now that I've said that I can continue more on topic.

I was referring only to Eddie with my original post, but I knew if I say Brett Lee you would have had to have popped up and said something.

Eddie's original post said Ryan Harris was overrated because he shouldn't be picked over top of players like Siddle, Hilfenhaus, and the other ODI bowlers ready to come in.

But then both you and he argued to me that the same was true of Lee (not at this point in time, but back when he was still non injured enough for me to consider him) I argued that he shouldn't be dropped to put in some players like the aforementioned. The capatilised on his absence and have stayed in the team.

What is the difference now? Siddle has been injured, Harris has capatalised. Suddenly Harris is overrated because he has capatilised on that sort of thing.

There is a contradiction between the two arguments, not one you are involved in, but I'm wondering if Eddie has a personal dislike of Harris or whether he actually has some reasoning behind it.

 

[thommy_rissole]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I was referring only to Eddie with my original post, but I knew if I say Brett Lee you would have had to have popped up and said something.

Eddie was saying Harris was over-rated because he has cashed in on weaker line ups in New Zealand and the West Indies, whereas Siddle got his wickets against the SAffers. Which could be perceived as over-rating Harris's ability with the ball.

- His point, not mine. FWIW I somewhat agree.

Now onto Brett Lee, probably one of the reasons I think he is so over-rated is because of blokes like you who continually talk him up like he was an almighty mega-star. He did play for a prolonged period of time, but so did many other better than average cricketers, it doesn't make them superstars.

He was, as CJ said, the 3rd or 4th bowler in a ridiculously good side. When the top choice bowlers retired/injured he wasn't as effective/as good as he was when he was bowling behind them.

Yes, he was a decent bowler - but he was nowhere near as good as you, and others, think he is. Hence, my opinion of his over-rated status.

Also, HE IS FINISHED. 0-100 of 10 in the IPL backs up my point!

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Eddie was saying Harris was over-rated because he has cashed in on weaker line ups in New Zealand and the West Indies, whereas Siddle got his wickets against the SAffers. Which could be perceived as over-rating Harris's ability with the ball.

- His point, not mine. FWIW I somewhat agree.

That's a different view on the post, and can understand that.

Now onto Brett Lee, probably one of the reasons I think he is so over-rated is because of blokes like you who continually talk him up like he was an almighty mega-star. He did play for a prolonged period of time, but so did many other better than average cricketers, it doesn't make them superstars.

He was, as CJ said, the 3rd or 4th bowler in a ridiculously good side. When the top choice bowlers retired/injured he wasn't as effective/as good as he was when he was bowling behind them.

Yes, he was a decent bowler - but he was nowhere near as good as you, and others, think he is. Hence, my opinion of his over-rated status.

Also, HE IS FINISHED. 0-100 of 10 in the IPL backs up my point!

You may be shocked to hear this, but I don't actually like Brett Lee. I was one of the ones going out there during his career saying he is a show pony and more effort than he was worth, but he disproved me by turning into a Test bowler and bowling at an average of 21 for 2 1/2 years and bowling better than McGrath and Clark during that period of time.

I definitely think he was overrated until that point in the Test arena, and because of that I think it's fair that you call him overrated.

In the ODI arena there is no way he can be overrated. 2nd best bowler in the world over the last decade is no small feat.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

James "Jimmy" Anderson.

Discuss.

You're kidding yourself.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Steve Harmison ripped South Africa apart in 2004, ripped the West Indies apart in the 04/05 winter (remember that 7-15 spell and the subsequent six-man slip corden?) and then set about ripping Australia apart during the 2005 Ashes. He was England's best bowler for the year and a half before the 2005 Ashes.

As for Panesar, he was one of the world's best spinners in 2008. Graeme Swann has completely outdone Panesar now, but Panesar was very good.

Myth, he bowled well at Lords but Australia won that game.

Did nothing of note afterwards and ended up averaging 40 odd for the series from memory.

My statement that Anderson is over-rated is based on the fact he averages 35 overall with the ball. Outside of England, he has taken 50 wickes at 40.

That is mediocre.

Mitchell Johnson made his test debut at the end of 2007, already Johnson nearly has more wickets than Anderson who made his debut back in 02 or 03 from memory.

Case closed.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Myth, he bowled well at Lords but Australia won that game.

Did nothing of note afterwards and ended up averaging 40 odd for the series from memory.

My statement that Anderson is over-rated is based on the fact he averages 35 overall with the ball. Outside of England, he has taken 50 wickes at 40.

That is mediocre.

Mitchell Johnson made his test debut at the end of 2007, already Johnson nearly has more wickets than Anderson who made his debut back in 02 or 03 from memory.

Case closed.

Stats never tell the whole story though mate. I think the case with Harmison is he could have done more with the talent and height he had. At one stage I thought he was going to be a white Garner/Ambrose, but it didn't happen.

I dont think Anderson is "overrated". He is what he is, a decent bowler who can be a handful in swinging conditions.

You cant play test cricket if you're not any good.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Myth, he bowled well at Lords but Australia won that game.

Did nothing of note afterwards and ended up averaging 40 odd for the series from memory.

My statement that Anderson is over-rated is based on the fact he averages 35 overall with the ball. Outside of England, he has taken 50 wickes at 40.

That is mediocre.

Mitchell Johnson made his test debut at the end of 2007, already Johnson nearly has more wickets than Anderson who made his debut back in 02 or 03 from memory.

Case closed.

Anderson part of winning Ashes squad. Johnson one of the main reasons Australia lost the Ashes. Case re-opened.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Anderson part of winning Ashes squad. Johnson one of the main reasons Australia lost the Ashes. Case re-opened.

Exactly.

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I will just add 1 point, Lee and Clark are 34, Siddle about 24, main difference there

The thing with Lee and Clark and an area I was proven right about, I highly doubted they could ever come back and play regular test cricket therefore it wasnt worth giving them their spots back as it would disrupt the team too much, Siddle is still young, lots of time ahead of him, Hilfenhaus a little older but still plenty of time, this time Harris the replacement is the old guy and his record would suggest his average wont ever get lower than it is now