Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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I'm pretty certain that he's not bowling a Knuckleball.

The first thing that springs to mind is that it's nowhere near the proper grip. For someone to be tucking their thumb under the ball like that you'd have to have massive hands to be able to get your fingernail dug into the seam (which he clearly isn't). Most people who throw/ bowl the knuckleball will have their thumb on the side or towards the bottom so that they can steady the ball upon release. If a person with average sized hands held it in such a fashion then I can't see them being able to get their finger(s) into the correct position, the ball would most likely slip out with very little power and spin ending up as a flighted pie. Whilst the aim is to have little to no spin imparted on the ball this kind of delivery is ineffective if lobbed at very low speeds, it needs some pace behind it to get movement.

I obviously can't see what his other fingers are doing but this grip is more comparable to a Circle Change as opposed to a Knuckleball.
 
TheRoadWarrior said:
I'm pretty certain that he's not bowling a Knuckleball.

The first thing that springs to mind is that it's nowhere near the proper grip. For someone to be tucking their thumb under the ball like that you'd have to have massive hands to be able to get your fingernail dug into the seam (which he clearly isn't). Most people who throw/ bowl the knuckleball will have their thumb on the side or towards the bottom so that they can steady the ball upon release. If a person with average sized hands held it in such a fashion then I can't see them being able to get their finger(s) into the correct position, the ball would most likely slip out with very little power and spin ending up as a flighted pie. Whilst the aim is to have little to no spin imparted on the ball this kind of delivery is ineffective if lobbed at very low speeds, it needs some pace behind it to get movement.

I obviously can't see what his other fingers are doing but this grip is more comparable to a Circle Change as opposed to a Knuckleball.
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Yeah you could be right. What's a circle change?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah you could be right. What's a circle change?
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It's a type of Baseball pitch, more specifically a type of Change-up grip. Although there's no orthodox grip/variation in cricket that resembles this (that I'm aware of) you could say it's the equivalent of a slower ball. When thrown in Baseball I think there's some pronation of the arm at release causing the ball to move towards the batter, the tighter grip will also cause the ball to travel slower than the Fastball (maintaining Fastball arm speed is key) and drop late. I play Baseball myself but I'm not a pitcher, my explanation is probably a little off.
 
Just looked at some of this stuff on Youtube - unbelievably subtle changes and yet they talk about them as though they're going to make a fundamental differences. I guess you have to play the game to understand.
 
It's the same as Warne. The thumb starts on the ball and as the fingers drag over the ball, the thumb bends in towards the palm. It doesn't start bent like that.
 
Cleanprophet said:
It's the same as Warne. The thumb starts on the ball and as the fingers drag over the ball, the thumb bends in towards the palm. It doesn't start bent like that.
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I've just picked up a ball and gone through my wrist/finger action with a ball in hand slowly to see what my thumb actually does and it's the same as this. As the ring finger hooks round the ball and then pulls round then so the thumb automatically tucks in in response as the ball leaves the hand. This literally has to happen otherwise the thumb would be blocking the ball leaving the hand in the right way. So I guess if your thumb isn't doesn't this then it probably is doing funny things to your spin.
 
GoldenArm said:
I've just picked up a ball and gone through my wrist/finger action with a ball in hand slowly to see what my thumb actually does and it's the same as this. As the ring finger hooks round the ball and then pulls round then so the thumb automatically tucks in in response as the ball leaves the hand. This literally has to happen otherwise the thumb would be blocking the ball leaving the hand in the right way. So I guess if your thumb isn't doesn't this then it probably is doing funny things to your spin.
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I had a look at this when I was spinning the ball from hand to hand. It's difficult to say for sure how it effects the spin. I used to have my thumb right off the ball and so it played no part at all in what my fingers were doing. If the thumb is on the ball and right next to the index finger, it will (or should) tuck inside and underneath the index finger. The bigger the space between the thumb and the index finger, the more likely it is that the thumb bends over the top of the index finger.
 
I had a bit of a breakthrough yesterday. For the last 3 or 4 years I've not really cocked my wrist fully. I never knew that until I watched footage back and noticed that my wrist is cocked at the start, but by the time my arm gets to shoulder height the wrist is bent only a little. There wasn't a big wrist flick at the point of release. As I've always had a loose grip, I've generated a bit more spin from the fingers than most other legspinner. But it just didn't look right and I felt there would be other issues arising from this sort of action. The problem was, when I tried to really cock the wrist I found that I tended to lose the release position (either producing topspinners or the ball simply slipping out of the hand).

Yesterday, I decided to try and fully cock that wrist again and this time I was getting the proper release and with big turn. Once that happened, I spent the next 20min-30min doing it again and again. Hopefully, I'll now be able to get a full and proper wrist flick.

I've been doin work on my approach as well. My release point was too early, my head wasn't over my front foot and my delivery stride was a little narrow. Someone pointed out to me that I probably needed more energy and momentum in my run up to get all that sorted (something that is obvious, but I'd never really thought about it). I've tried a quicker run up, but I decided what I needed to do was lengthen the jump into the crease. My jump into the crease was always very small and a bit skippy (probably about 2ft in distance). I experimented with a 6ft jump in, a 5ft jump and a 4ft jump in. They all felt quite comfortable, but I settled on the 4ft jump in. From side on, it looked much more energetic and fluid. The release point and head position were much better. The delivery stride was longer but my front leg was still bent a little. I'm not worried about that at all. I'm going to implement that longer jump into the crease and see how I go with that.
 
Nice to hear some good results. All seems very logical but do take care of too long stride which I have been( or had been :) ) struggling with. I just want to add that try to keep front hand straight and take that till thighs and this will add to overall progress.

You would be knowing my long stride issues and what I have experienced recently is we do not bowl by bowling arm but front hand :) Believe me this is what a experienced leg spinner told me recently while working with him and I kinda liked it. He said just take control of front hand and do up and over- all technical aspects will fall in place. I tend to think this will add to your overall improvement also.

Please note I have been having a very encouraging results these days since when I have starting focusing on front hand in NETS. Though please take a caution that you should forget about action during match and let it go naturally. Your NETS work will come in picture automatically and will show up slowly.
 
hemant said:
Nice to hear some good results. All seems very logical but do take care of too long stride which I have been( or had been :) ) struggling with. I just want to add that try to keep front hand straight and take that till thighs and this will add to overall progress.

You would be knowing my long stride issues and what I have experienced recently is we do not bowl by bowling arm but front hand :) Believe me this is what a experienced leg spinner told me recently while working with him and I kinda liked it. He said just take control of front hand and do up and over- all technical aspects will fall in place. I tend to think this will add to your overall improvement also.

Please note I have been having a very encouraging results these days since when I have starting focusing on front hand in NETS. Though please take a caution that you should forget about action during match and let it go naturally. Your NETS work will come in picture automatically and will show up slowly.
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I used to imagine that my front hand was reaching for a target and that target was the area I wanted to land the ball. I had a small plastic cone on the ideal line and length and reached for it with my front hand. I think it is good advice to aim/reach with that front hand rather than think about the arm direction.

That feeling of "up and over" is a good one to look for too. I remember Terry Jenner showing that in one of this coaching videos. That connection between the front arm movement and the bowling arm movement is important for a nice smoothe and fluid action.
 
I am assuming one starts with a cocked wrist, then at some point
it becomes neutral, and then goes the other way, at the same time
the wrist turns sideways 45 degrees, palm facing away from you
and then the ring finger goes over the seam for release?
Is this what is being called wrist flick?
 
tcs said:
I am assuming one starts with a cocked wrist, then at some point
it becomes neutral, and then goes the other way, at the same time
the wrist turns sideways 45 degrees, palm facing away from you
and then the ring finger goes over the seam for release?
Is this what is being called wrist flick?
Click to expand...

It's an interesting one because flexibility of wrist is factor in it as well. Some people will have to force their wrist to be bent fully and this could be counter-productive because the whole wrist becomes a bit too tense and rigid. The wrist is supposed to be cocked a fair bit and then just as the arm moves into the delivery position the wrist flicks into that straight or neutral position and the hand/fingers then drag across the ball to impart sidespin. If you see images like this one:

http://www.ibnlive.com/cricketnext/...egain-shahid-afridis-bowling-form-601205.html

You'll see how cocked Afridi's wrist is right up to the point of release. Literally, that is the point where Afridi's wrist will flick open and the ball will be released. That is what you should aim for to get maximum wrist flick.
 
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/977151.html

Take a look at the photo of Afridi heading the article. Another example of a leggie using his thumb on the ball. I'm starting to think that in reality a majority of leg spinners actually do this and that being taught to use the thumb off the ball is bad practice, I see absolutely no benefit to doing it. All the old time leggies do it in every photo I've ever seen, even Warne does it even though Jenner makes it seem like he doesn't when he demonstrates the so called Shane Warne grip. The only one I've seen who didn't is Benaud because he had massive hands and his first finger wrapped neatly around the front of the ball because it was so long meaning he didn't need the thumb. I would say as standard it should be taught to have thumb on the ball unless you've got particularly long, strong fingers and hands like dinner plates. It's transformed my bowling getting away from this phallacy.
 
I was thinking about this yesterday. I'd noticed Afridi's thumb on the ball and, as you say, pretty much every legspinner having their thumb on the ball. I always had my thumb off the ball and I wondered whether that was leaving the grip a little unstable, thus the ball sometimes slipped out. What you always hear is that you can have the thumb on the ball or off, but don't push the thumb on the ball too hard because that can prevent spin. My thinking was that the thumb works almost like a stopper, just ensuring that the ball stays in position. So, on the ball but with very little pressure.
 
Cleanprophet said:
I was thinking about this yesterday. I'd noticed Afridi's thumb on the ball and, as you say, pretty much every legspinner having their thumb on the ball. I always had my thumb off the ball and I wondered whether that was leaving the grip a little unstable, thus the ball sometimes slipped out. What you always hear is that you can have the thumb on the ball or off, but don't push the thumb on the ball too hard because that can prevent spin. My thinking was that the thumb works almost like a stopper, just ensuring that the ball stays in position. So, on the ball but with very little pressure.
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Yeah I totally agree with that but they just breeze over it by saying on or off the ball. I'd like to see a masterclass or basics guide that really stresses the grip more. It's so fundamental and I know you get a few who have unique grips so it won't all apply to them but it's taken me years to make this discovery as I soldiered on with my thumb off thinking it was completely fine not realising it was hampering me. it only has to be a segment that says something like 'small hands thumb on, big hands thumb off as a general rule but do whatever's comfortable and gives you the most control'. Seems like an area that's neglected for the more glamorous areas of leg spin.
 
Fortunately I always had thumb on the grip and wondered why they advice to keep thumb off the ball.. But I tend to think googley would be better if we keep this thumb off or loose on grip..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cleanprophet said:
It's an interesting one because flexibility of wrist is factor in it as well. Some people will have to force their wrist to be bent fully and this could be counter-productive because the whole wrist becomes a bit too tense and rigid. The wrist is supposed to be cocked a fair bit and then just as the arm moves into the delivery position the wrist flicks into that straight or neutral position and the hand/fingers then drag across the ball to impart sidespin. If you see images like this one:

http://www.ibnlive.com/cricketnext/...egain-shahid-afridis-bowling-form-601205.html

You'll see how cocked Afridi's wrist is right up to the point of release. Literally, that is the point where Afridi's wrist will flick open and the ball will be released. That is what you should aim for to get maximum wrist flick.
Click to expand...

FYI, that's not a cocked wrist, that's a flexed wrist. They're polar opposites.
 
GoldenArm said:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/977151.html

Take a look at the photo of Afridi heading the article. Another example of a leggie using his thumb on the ball. I'm starting to think that in reality a majority of leg spinners actually do this and that being taught to use the thumb off the ball is bad practice, I see absolutely no benefit to doing it. All the old time leggies do it in every photo I've ever seen, even Warne does it even though Jenner makes it seem like he doesn't when he demonstrates the so called Shane Warne grip. The only one I've seen who didn't is Benaud because he had massive hands and his first finger wrapped neatly around the front of the ball because it was so long meaning he didn't need the thumb. I would say as standard it should be taught to have thumb on the ball unless you've got particularly long, strong fingers and hands like dinner plates. It's transformed my bowling getting away from this phallacy.
Click to expand...


strong Freudian slip there.

The thumb shouldn't matter, because it comes off the ball before you release it anyway, unless you're doing something very badly wrong.
 
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