Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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GoldenArm said:
well Andy Bull who writes this read our minds regarding quick spin!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/may/17/the-spin-twirlymen-andy-bull

and I'm sure we'll all be rushing out to find a copy of the book as well.
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When I posted the link I hadn't read the accompanying text, buty having just read it, this book is a must read. The idea that the Flipper precedes Grimmett is interesting and even better it comes from some bloke from Essex!!!! The medium pace spinning sounds interesting and that leg break that's described sounds to me like a wrong wrong un - and all these releases, grips and techniques apparently illustrated. Sounds like a massive revelation, can't wait to read where this bloke thinks the Slider and the Zooter come from or what they are!
 
someblokecalleddave said:
When I posted the link I hadn't read the accompanying text, buty having just read it, this book is a must read. The idea that the Flipper precedes Grimmett is interesting and even better it comes from some bloke from Essex!!!! The medium pace spinning sounds interesting and that leg break that's described sounds to me like a wrong wrong un - and all these releases, grips and techniques apparently illustrated. Sounds like a massive revelation, can't wait to read where this bloke thinks the Slider and the Zooter come from or what they are!
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thought you might like the bit about the flipper being invented in Essex! it really is a good book, I'm loath to put it down but I've can 't sit here reading it all day!
 
GoldenArm said:
i now have a copy of said book in hand, and I can tell you its basically been written by one of us, only a few pages in and I know I'm going to both love it and hate it, because its pretty much the book I wanted to write myself. Also it has already directed me towards a book called The Bowlers Art by Brian Wilkins which i have now ordered from amazon...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bowlers-Art-Understanding-Swing-Swerve/dp/0713634480

sorry chaps i got mine for a tenner, the next one is 50 quid!
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Yeah found one cheaper, but still a bit steep, they're all in NZ and Australia. Just been looking around at links and reviews of this book and I can't see how it's managed to stay under our radar, it sounds like the answer to many of our questions - science and practice combined to de-bunk myths and reveal truths.
 
Played a T20 game against my old club last night at their ground. It rained all afternoon and the pitch was soaked. They pretty much have a full time groundsman so he had obviously been busy in the afternoon as the wicket wasn't horrendous, but the outfield was very wet (but hard underneath, so just really slippy!!).

Away teams bat first in our league, so we batted first and posted 98 in a reduced 16 overs. Not a bad score really, could have been a little better. However it wasn't enough when the opposition had half their first team out, including 2 Aussie overseas players. One of them was a pretty tidy leg spinner, he got 1 wicket off his 4 overs with his last ball, dismissing our best batsman LBW with a faster ball (probably not a flipper, but I was at square leg so couldn't be sure, just looked like a well disguised fast delivery though).

Our opening bowler got a wicket early on to dismiss their number 1 bat. That left a really short guy at one end who just waited and cut EVERYTHING marginally short, or drove anything full. He looked unbeatable really. The guy in at the other end was one of the Aussies who was a left hander that played literally every ball through mid wicket with huge slog pulls and sweeps. Unbelievably he was getting boundaries almost every ball off it, because the captain wouldn't put anyone out there to begin with. And the short guy at the other end was cutting 4's every ball through 3rd man. They could easily have been dried up for 1's, but for whatever reason (maybe he wanted to get the game finished quickly) the captain didn't change anything.

I came on in the 7th over I think, with them only requiring about 20 runs!! I figured I would only get 1 over. The short bloke retired and in came one of their better batsmen, whereas I was quite relishing a bowl at the short guy. First ball though was at the left handed Aussie, I stayed over the wicket, tried to just get it nice and full, he had pre-meditated charging down the wicket at me, and that full ball reached him full toss about 5 yards down the wicket haha. He slashed at it, and spooned it up to mid-off for a simple catch. Wicket first ball! I instantly wished I hadn't got him though when next in was probably the best batsman at the club!! He is about 6'6", fairly fat but an absolute monster of a man. I bowled at him a few times in nets when I used to play there and he would hit me straight back over the car park!! I knew what was required, because he has zero footwork, just a club of a bat and good hand eye co-ordination, so I needed to pitch it around his feet and turn it across him.

The rest of that first over was mostly at the other guy, and I struggled for line, landing too many outside leg stump. The umpire was very leniant and I don't think I went for any wides in that over. I went for one 4 (overpitched on leg stump, turned around the corner, and the captain didn't give me the fine leg I asked for because we only had 10 men. Instead he packed the offside?!?), and had 2 inside edges narrowly miss the stumps!! Think I went for 6 runs total, and figured I might get another over as the guy at the other end is usually quite tight.

I got my 2nd over, with still a decent total left for them to get. My over went for 13 I think. 3 boundaries and a wide. All bowled at the fat guy, although it was so shocking I can't entirely remember, I just blocked it out. There was maybe 2 decent balls. He figured I was bowling leg side so 2nd ball he stepped way outside leg stump to free up room. I saw that as an invitation to try and bowl as fast as I could at his stumps, but it went horribly wrong and landed off the strip haha. The batsman was getting really wound up because he wanted to smash me and he just couldn't because the wicket was wet and skiddy, so even my rank long hops were staying low and darting at his legs. He got the 3 boundaries, but not enough to finish the game. He rejected a single at one point because it was a streaky edge and he didn't want to win the game that way lol.

I finished my over with them needing 2 runs to win, and they did it straight away next over.

One to forget for sure. The ball was absolutely soaked (bowling 2nd was bad because the ball weighed double and you just couldn't get it dry, as soon as you rubbed it with the towel, water would just seep back out again!). Thats the main reason why the opening seam bowlers got carted because they were letting go of lots of full tosses and rank short balls where they couldn't grip the ball. I struggled as well, which definitely didn't help, but I am wayward anyway so I can't blame it entirely on the ball.

Another week, another below par performance, but another prize wicket!!! 4 wickets this season now I think (can't even remember!), 4 catches, 3 off full tosses. You can see why Warney had a deliberate full toss as part of his repertoire in his earlier years.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Just ordered one myself off Amazon. You finished yours yet?
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its about 400 pages long so I'd be doing well! managed to get through the first 150 or so yesterday, massively impressed by this guys knowledge and research, though I notice he has borrowed a few phrases and ideas. "mystery is temporary, mastery is permanent" for instance which is taken from a Gideon Haigh article which can be found here:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/347392.html

but he makes a very astute observation in that spin bowling is very much like the literary tradition, the way knowledge and technique is shared, there is no shame in borrowing, in fact its essential how we place ourselves 'among the dead' in order to measure ourselves and better ourselves.We are nothing without those that came before us. He even uses one of my favourite essays by TS Eliot Tradition and the individual talent to illustrate this point.

http://www.bartleby.com/200/sw4.html

Have a read of it if you've got the time and just imagine he is talking about spin bowling rather than literature. The book is very much like reading a dissertation on spin bowling, one crossed with a groundbreaking sports history and brief excerpts of an instruction manual. I really hope he gets the plaudits he deserves for putting all this in one place and doing it in such a clever fashion. Its not just wrist spin that gets the treatment either, he's a vociferous supporter of the finger spinner, even the much maligned right hander, he argues how they are not a defensive bowler and how they've got as rough a treatment as wrist spinners have over the years. we're too attacking and loose, offies are too conservative. it's the lot of the spinner to be put down it seems! Which is perhaps why he spends as much time on the character of the spinner as he does on everything else, you have to be a certain kind of person to do it. anyway i won't spoil anymore of it, buy it, read it, enjoy.
 
GoldenArm said:
its about 400 pages long so I'd be doing well! managed to get through the first 150 or so yesterday, massively impressed by this guys knowledge and research, though I notice he has borrowed a few phrases and ideas. "mystery is temporary, mastery is permanent" for instance which is taken from a Gideon Haigh article which can be found here:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/347392.html
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Really irritated that it is out of print for guys in the US. Itching to get my hands on it.
 
GoldenArm said:
i now have a copy of said book in hand, and I can tell you its basically been written by one of us, only a few pages in and I know I'm going to both love it and hate it, because its pretty much the book I wanted to write myself. Also it has already directed me towards a book called The Bowlers Art by Brian Wilkins which i have now ordered from amazon...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bowlers-Art-Understanding-Swing-Swerve/dp/0713634480

sorry chaps i got mine for a tenner, the next one is 50 quid!
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I've seen that book at the library and I think I mentioned it ages ago. Its very thorough and dispells some myths but it is basically a science text book. Maybe a physicists dream but hard going for the rest of us. Still worth a look though for a broadening of the mind. If I remember rightly it is more concerned with swing and when the right conditions are for it to occur.
 
Hi all,
Well I have a quick minute on the computer. I see you are all into your season with varying degees of success.
They hve put new nets up in my home town, something we never had as kids. Ive been down every day for the last 2 weeks and making giant strides too I'm glad to say.
I am getting my weight transfering properly and delaying my bowling arm as late as possible and it has acheived amazing results. I'm basically getting the feeling that all the energy is going into the delivery and an amazing feeling it is too, every delivery ripping off the fingers and out of the hand.
I have been watching Warne basically and whilst trying not to be a Warne clone, copying a lot of what he does in regards to weight tranfer.
Its bloody freezing here though and a full tracky suit is the only way to go, and I'm looked at like a madman by people around when Im at the nets, but all the hard work is paying off. The only day I missed was when it snowed. Another thing that has helped no end is practicing in the backyard without a ball. Just going through the action and concentrating on one aspect and going over it again and again without worrying about the result of where the ball goes. I find if I do that for 20 mins before I go to the nets my training sessions are a lot better from the start.
 
chippyben said:
Hi all,
Well I have a quick minute on the computer. I see you are all into your season with varying degees of success.
They hve put new nets up in my home town, something we never had as kids. Ive been down every day for the last 2 weeks and making giant strides too I'm glad to say.
I am getting my weight transfering properly and delaying my bowling arm as late as possible and it has acheived amazing results. I'm basically getting the feeling that all the energy is going into the delivery and an amazing feeling it is too, every delivery ripping off the fingers and out of the hand.
I have been watching Warne basically and whilst trying not to be a Warne clone, copying a lot of what he does in regards to weight tranfer.
Its bloody freezing here though and a full tracky suit is the only way to go, and I'm looked at like a madman by people around when Im at the nets, but all the hard work is paying off. The only day I missed was when it snowed. Another thing that has helped no end is practicing in the backyard without a ball. Just going through the action and concentrating on one aspect and going over it again and again without worrying about the result of where the ball goes. I find if I do that for 20 mins before I go to the nets my training sessions are a lot better from the start.
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yeah it gets cold down around Batlow chippyben, I painted some signs near there once in winter. Nights have been cool but the days are still warm once the sun comes out here on the coast. best time for us to practise is 2-4 o'clock right now.
 
chippyben said:
Hi all,
Well I have a quick minute on the computer. I see you are all into your season with varying degees of success.
They hve put new nets up in my home town, something we never had as kids. Ive been down every day for the last 2 weeks and making giant strides too I'm glad to say.
I am getting my weight transfering properly and delaying my bowling arm as late as possible and it has acheived amazing results. I'm basically getting the feeling that all the energy is going into the delivery and an amazing feeling it is too, every delivery ripping off the fingers and out of the hand.
I have been watching Warne basically and whilst trying not to be a Warne clone, copying a lot of what he does in regards to weight tranfer.
Its bloody freezing here though and a full tracky suit is the only way to go, and I'm looked at like a madman by people around when Im at the nets, but all the hard work is paying off. The only day I missed was when it snowed. Another thing that has helped no end is practicing in the backyard without a ball. Just going through the action and concentrating on one aspect and going over it again and again without worrying about the result of where the ball goes. I find if I do that for 20 mins before I go to the nets my training sessions are a lot better from the start.
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That's interesting the practicing without the ball. I wonder if anyone else has tried this and whether they had the same experience as Chippy Ben?
 
Hello all, My bowling's not really been going anywhere much lately (figures for the last two Sunday games weren't too brilliant: 5-0-0-38 and 2-0-0-22), it seemed to be getting slightly worse if anything, but on Friday evening a guy from the club was watching me bowl and he devised a drill that may help one or two people out. One of my problems has been that the point at which I release the ball is really inconsistent (i.e. too soon or too late), unless I'm in a very good rhythm, so he got me doing something so simple it beggars belief:

Run up and bowl normally with a ball in your hand - but don't release it - and follow through normally.

It's incredibly easy to feel when the ball should be bowled - it's the point at which the centrifugal force on the ball in my hand peaks. I repeated this half a dozen or so times, then I bowled a few and my rhythm was pretty much perfect. I also need to work on driving my shoulders over each other rather than round, but if I can get these two sorted and well grooved I think I'll be on to a whole new level. :)
 
Bad first match captaining the new team- allowed opposition openers to put on 100 runs as we dropped three catches. I bowled myself in 20th over of the innings with no wickets down- first over went for 8 runs but as they called for powerplay, had to take myself off immediately. at this time they changed the ball and got a shiny ball which kept slipping out of my hands. With winds of 15mph blowing into the bowler, my second over bowled at 25th over was horrible with full tosses above the head and so on, so I took myself off 2-0-15-0. Unfortunately, they scored 243 in 40 overs. Started off with a runout and I walked in at no:3. Scored 20 and had a partnership of 50, then got out. We had a shot at chasing 244 when our no:4 was batting well, but when he got out, it fell apart. Didn't make any blunders with captaincy although, I could have gambled at a couple of places. Next match in two weeks time which we have to win.
 
shrek said:
Bad first match captaining the new team- allowed opposition openers to put on 100 runs as we dropped three catches. I bowled myself in 20th over of the innings with no wickets down- first over went for 8 runs but as they called for powerplay, had to take myself off immediately. at this time they changed the ball and got a shiny ball which kept slipping out of my hands. With winds of 15mph blowing into the bowler, my second over bowled at 25th over was horrible with full tosses above the head and so on, so I took myself off 2-0-15-0. Unfortunately, they scored 243 in 40 overs. Started off with a runout and I walked in at no:3. Scored 20 and had a partnership of 50, then got out. We had a shot at chasing 244 when our no:4 was batting well, but when he got out, it fell apart. Didn't make any blunders with captaincy although, I could have gambled at a couple of places. Next match in two weeks time which we have to win.
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What stage of the season are you in Shrek, has your season just started now?
 
I'm reading Twirlymen and have picked up on a couple of contentious points and one I'm about to jump on right now - page 47.
"One common confusion, for example is between the Googly and the Flipper, two deliveries whose only common qualities are that they are delivered by the Wrist Spinner and come in from the off".
Hmmm..... I've not finished the book yet, but that would suggest that this bloke is going to make a case that your bog standard Flipper e.g. your common or garden Flipper, maybe on the basis that it's the one that is seen most throughout cricket is an Off-Spinning version? Yet, we all know on this thread that the Off-Spinning Flipper is possibly only 2nd to the ultra obscure Wrong Wrong Un in its difficulty in bowling. In fact isn't it the one that Jenner Claims in Malletts book on Grimmett is physically impossible to bowl, or was that top-spinning Flipper?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
That's interesting the practicing without the ball. I wonder if anyone else has tried this and whether they had the same experience as Chippy Ben?
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I find that if there is something I want to concentrate on, say getting front arm high etc if I do it 50 or 60 times and( apart from getting a sweat up and being a good work out) it just gets me into a good habit and when I bowl Im already doing it rather than 10 overs down the track it starts to click. That way I can concentrate on other areas to improve.
Its also good to just get in 5 minutes practice without going to the nets or if its raining or dark.
 
Who is the author of the Twirlymen book, and what was his cricket discipline? I ask because if he was a batsman then his Flipper idea makes perfect sense (because he would have seen it from the wrong perspective), and if he wasn't a leg spinner then I'd say it still makes sense. If he was a leggie though then I'd suggest either his own flipper had a quirky action, or he just didn't understand the physics.

Sometimes Flippers do jag in from off, sometimes they do the opposite. Generally speaking, and we have all experienced it, a Flipper will swing/drift quite big toward the leg side. And given that it is a straight delivery, that drift/swing will result in the ball ending up coming off the pitch in towards the batsman, giving the impression of "turn". It is less common, for me at least, for a Flipper to turn the other way. The detail is all in the wrist though, you can easily present a Flipper with the seam ever so slightly either side of straight to create those subtleties.

A few of my team mates think I have a Googly at the moment, because I can make a leg break turn the wrong way. I wish I could do it on purpose, but unfortunately its one of those deliveries that surprises everyone, myself included. I have toyed with various theories, 2 of which I think are correct on different occasions. There is the "cutter" theory, whereby I release the ball wrongly and end up dragging my fingers behind it instead of ripping it cleanly (it basically slips out the front of the hand, some might say it "slides" out lol). They drag down it in such a way that it imparts a bit of off spin on the ball, and that results in a very small amount of deviation off the pitch, turning back in to the batsman. Then there is another type of ball, which happens especially in wet conditions (and may be the phenomenom that Philpott refers to in his book), where you bowl a perfect leg break, but for some reason it turns the wrong way by a very small amount. Having observed this now for the entire time I have been bowling, and especially in wet nets, I realised what was happening whilst watching Graeme Swann bowl the other day for Notts. He was getting huge drift on a few deliveries (and being an offie the ball was therefore moving away from the bat), and one ball didn't grip, and to the untrained eye looked like he had just bowled a doosra. It really did "turn" quite a lot away from the bat! What you were actually seeing was very late drift. If you rip the ball hard then you'll get the late drift on the ball that is so valuable to a spinner, and when you look at it quickly without analysing it you would think that the ball has just turned the wrong way. When in fact it has simply drifted late, not gripped the pitch (hence it happens more in wet conditions), and the drift has resulted in its path continuing in towards the batsman.

So there you go, Flippers that "turn", leg breaks that turn the wrong way, and we thought we had a grasp on this whole leg spin art!!!

As for the off-spinning flipper, its by far the easiest of the flippers to bowl in my opinion. Its just an off break with a slightly different grip, the backspinner is much harder, and the top spinner and wrong-wrong'un would be the 2 "impossible" deliveries, although the same would be said about Muralitharans action, so nothing is ever impossible. Just improbable.
 
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