Leggy88
Well-Known Member
Wow, a flipper googly... Never really realised there could be such a thing. I agree it would be hard to pick, hardest part however would be getting enough spin, accuracy and pace with it...
Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
Chinaman34
Member
Hardest part is getting to used to the execution of the finger snap, then its length and length is connected to release position, release position is later then your regular deliveries and thats where you will run into longterm inaccuracy. Pace is not a problem ball comes out faster due to the finger snap. I don't think spin is a problem it only needs to deviate a stump at the pace it’s bowled at.
Then there is the Grimmet (the one
SomeblokecalledDave.
was talking about) front of the hand snapped out top spinner which will spin googly-wise but I reckon that will be easy to tell because it requires too much of an action change. Anyway enough talk, hoping to practice the orthodox flipper tomorrow. Playing both days this weekend, must win T20 for us this sunday, need to win 2/2 to stay in the top 4 to make the round of 16.
SomeblokecalledDave.
Some Bloke Called Dave
"You could effectively just become a flipper bowler and turn it in all directions with slight adjustments in wrist angles" Yep that was one of Grimmetts observations.
SomeblokecalledDave.
Some Bloke Called Dave
Yeah just watched it, yeah he seems to have as he says a high in the fingers action which is pretty much the way that I have to bowl my top-spinner, but I've noticed that I've only got to get the wrist presentation slightly wrong and I end up with a nice - big turning leg-break. So with a bit of work with that fingery approach it might not be too much of a leap of faith to develop a wrong-un?
SomeblokecalledDave.
Some Bloke Called Dave
It good to see that someone else at last has latched on to the potential of the flipper! I think you need to read Brian Wilkins chapter on it, in his book "The bowlers art". Plus the three Grimmett books if you can get hold of them. Be good to hear how you get on in your last games. Do you keep practicing through Autumn till the weather closes in? I reckon with some decent hours working on at least 2 of the variations you'll have em nailed.
Chinaman34
Member
Does backspin change the direction of the drift on a delivery?
Drift is only caused by side spin (Magnus effect), so if you have a ball spinning from leg -> off like a leg break, changing the amount of top or back spin should theoretically only maybe reduce drift slightly.
Although a top spinning ball that dips may make it drift later (I’ll explain if you want) and a back spinning ball may swing in the direction of the drift (like my arm ball).
Chinaman34
Member
Please elaborate, I can't bowl a pure backspinner, even with the flipper there is still some side spin.
It’s very hard to explain in words without making a 3000 word essay and I’m a little busy for an hour or so, but I’ll make you some nice drawings to explain how I *hypothesise* with a large amount of certainty how drift and its interactions work.
Leggy88
Well-Known Member
Yeah will start practicing again in a month. Don't really need to worry about weather closing in in Australia lol. Yes, I have ordered the wilkins book and am excited to read it, Grimmett books seem a bit harder to get.
Here's my stats for the year, under season 1. Not the ideal year with the ball, had a better year with the bat though so I guess it evens out.
In my last couple games, I got smashed and was way too innaccurate so I felt bad about putting myself on to bowl for the overs I needed to settle in when I was bowling horrible. So in the end I would always take myself off after like 2 overs.
However, before the last two games I felt something needed to change. I felt I was trying to muscle the ball through the pitch with my upper body. So at a training two days before my second last game I experimented with extending my runup a touch and running in a fair bit faster. The first ball I bowled trying this method was an absolute peach, turned more and was at a faster pace too - I was hooked. This action even somewhat created an improvement in accuracy, without even training the new muscle memory much. I would bowl much more good balls, with the trade off being my bad balls were the worst in history lol... I'm talking about double bouncers down the leg side, two which I bowled in games. However I do feel training this action more will fix this, and I'll be in the best shape for next season, where I will be playing grade cricket with adults. Will be interesting to see what grade I can get to actually, when I already know there are tons of legspinners I would be competing with (barely any offies apart from the batsmen part timers haha).
Then in the second last game, I don't bowl because they chase down our 40 in 5 overs lmao. This gave me a bit more time to train it before my last game.
Anyhow in the last game I came on to bowl with two mens first graders opening the batting, so far unbeaten. The guy I bowl my first over to is a leftie, and first ball I bowl this ball that turns from the rough outside his off stump, but he somehow gets the faintest inside edge so it misses the stumps. Next ball I bowl the same thing, but pitching on off stump, and he pops up what would have been an easy bat pad catch if we had one. Third ball I bowl the wrongun, and he steps down the wicket and gets it on a halfvolley but hits it along the ground to me and I stop the single. Fourth and fifth balls, both play and misses that spin past leg stump with insane spin for the pace I was bowling. Then last ball, I bowl the same that I did first ball but this time he misses it, bowled. Teammates said it was the most dominant over they've ever seen, to a pretty good bat too at that. Then next over for some reason I bowl one of those double bouncers lol, but next ball get the other first grader nicked to slip. from there on I bowl a few more bad balls, a few more good balls, without much luck, 2/20 off 8 overs when previously I have been going for more than 5 runs per over.
Although I am intrigued by the flipper and it's options I think it is the best idea for me to get my accuracy with this new action. Just with the topspinner, quicker sidespinner/slider, and googly, but mostly just working on the stock leggy. I know if I can do this I will have a much better season than last year, and will hopefully get some good performances going that get me up the grades.
Chinaman34
Member
I ordered the Wilkins book and 2 of the Grimmett books and manage to find a PDF copy of Taking wickets by Grimmett, its a short book read it today, very interesting but not as informative as the art of wrist spin bowling by Philpot, that is a must read for any spinner.
If you want to find the “Taking wickets by Grimmett” book search that in the internet archive website and its there as a PDF, free to download, you can worry about the ethics of downloading a copy later
If you want to find the “Taking wickets by Grimmett” book search that in the internet archive website and its there as a PDF, free to download, you can worry about the ethics of downloading a copy later
SomeblokecalledDave.
Some Bloke Called Dave
Someone asked about drift? Man I struggled getting my head around that. It'll be interesting seeing what you come up - I eventually settled on the explanation I came up with that's on here somewhere.
I think something in Leggy88’s last post has broken my Tapatalk app whenever I try to open this thread. It might be the image.
Also I got busy so I haven’t done it yet haha.
I’ll do it this afternoon.
Leggy88
Well-Known Member
Lol oops, my bad :grimace:
Idk whats doing it, but everything loads fine up until that message and then it gives me some kind of string error.
Its working on my browser so idk lol.
Alright so here it is:
So as the air hits the rotating ball, the side rotating with the flow (bottom) allows the air to quickly pass over the ball and because of physics, fast air has a lower pressure. The airflow that hits the side rotating against the airflow slows it down and causes it to be turbulent and slower air = higher pressure. Because one side has a higher pressure than other, and this higher pressure side quickly separates from the ball, it causes the ball to move towards the low pressure side. This is drift.
For swing, its a similar concept, except because there is a seam creating turbulence, as opposed to the ball rotating against the flow of air, the turbulent air is not pushed off of the ball, and actually sticks to it for longer than the laminar flow would for the other side. This causes the ball to move towards the way the seam is pointing.
It is a little confusing because drift moves away from the turbulent side and swing moves towards it. But I guess the important difference is that the turbulent air separates quickly for drift whereas swing separates late. I would look further but I have neither the time, nor the brainpower to do that.
That's the confusing physics part, now for the more theory crafting part I was looking forward to. For the sake of consistency imagine all these deliveries have exactly the same RPM.
1. So, lets say you send down a perfectly side spinning off/leg break, completely flat, with no flight and only "Corkscrew" spin and no "flying saucer", top or back spin, it will only drift slightly and consistently throughout its flight (due to some wind getting caught and dragged in by the seam). This is because the magnus effect requires the ball to be spinning with/against the flow of air.
2. Now say you bowl it with the same trajectory and speed, but with entirely "flying saucer" spin. This delivery should drift massively, but again should move out of the hand and consistently throughout flight. This one is funny because if air resistance and gravity didn't exist it could technically drift 180 degrees and come back to you.
3. Now go back to the "corkscrew" spin, except this time you toss it up and let it drop a bit. At the start of its flight path, when its moving parallel to the ground it will not drift much (like in #1), however, once it starts to drop at the end of its flight, its axis of spin will line up with the airflow and the magnus effect will take a much greater effect, causing the ball to drift late in its flight. This should not move as much as #2, but as I'm sure you're all aware, a little bit of late drift is MUCH better than large drift out of the hand.
4. Now lets bowl one with entirely top spin, this will make the ball "drift" downwards also known as dip. If bowled with back spin it will "drift" upwards and float towards the batsman a bit (could theoretically get the ball to actually move upwards like this ).
5. Bowl one with 50/50 (possibly technically 46.7/53.3 or some weird number like that because physics) corkscrew spin and top spin and you'll have what I would call the perfect off/leg break, this should theoretically start above the batters eyes, drift a touch, and the start dipping and drifting late in its flight. But because using the pitch is also a part of cricket this would vary pitch by pitch.
6. However, most bowlers have a slight bit of "flying saucer" spin and its hard not to, an example is Ravichandran Ashwin:
That's mostly upright but it is slightly tilted to the right. I would imagine this is more due to natural hands position and that slight difference making absolutely no effect on what his off break does. But for the sake of this, it should technically make his off break spin more, because as was failed to be mentioned earlier, your delivery does not fall at a 90 degree angle, so ideally a little bit of saucer spin isn't a bad thing. This will generate the most drift.
7. The arm ball/swinging flipper. This will be a mix of both back and side spin and is basically just a out/inswinger. From experience this is a great delivery, especially if you naturally drift the ball into a batsman and turn it away, you can set them up and then bowl one that still swings in but doesn't turn. Chinaman34 has experienced this first hand, although ironically this is the only delivery he made contact with
. This ball should both drift and swing by both mechanisms I attached at the start of this post, making it move a lot in the air, especially with a newer ball. This is another delivery by Ashwin, it won't move as much as it would if it had more backspin, but this would be significantly harder to pick.
So as the air hits the rotating ball, the side rotating with the flow (bottom) allows the air to quickly pass over the ball and because of physics, fast air has a lower pressure. The airflow that hits the side rotating against the airflow slows it down and causes it to be turbulent and slower air = higher pressure. Because one side has a higher pressure than other, and this higher pressure side quickly separates from the ball, it causes the ball to move towards the low pressure side. This is drift.
For swing, its a similar concept, except because there is a seam creating turbulence, as opposed to the ball rotating against the flow of air, the turbulent air is not pushed off of the ball, and actually sticks to it for longer than the laminar flow would for the other side. This causes the ball to move towards the way the seam is pointing.
It is a little confusing because drift moves away from the turbulent side and swing moves towards it. But I guess the important difference is that the turbulent air separates quickly for drift whereas swing separates late. I would look further but I have neither the time, nor the brainpower to do that.
That's the confusing physics part, now for the more theory crafting part I was looking forward to. For the sake of consistency imagine all these deliveries have exactly the same RPM.
1. So, lets say you send down a perfectly side spinning off/leg break, completely flat, with no flight and only "Corkscrew" spin and no "flying saucer", top or back spin, it will only drift slightly and consistently throughout its flight (due to some wind getting caught and dragged in by the seam). This is because the magnus effect requires the ball to be spinning with/against the flow of air.
2. Now say you bowl it with the same trajectory and speed, but with entirely "flying saucer" spin. This delivery should drift massively, but again should move out of the hand and consistently throughout flight. This one is funny because if air resistance and gravity didn't exist it could technically drift 180 degrees and come back to you.
3. Now go back to the "corkscrew" spin, except this time you toss it up and let it drop a bit. At the start of its flight path, when its moving parallel to the ground it will not drift much (like in #1), however, once it starts to drop at the end of its flight, its axis of spin will line up with the airflow and the magnus effect will take a much greater effect, causing the ball to drift late in its flight. This should not move as much as #2, but as I'm sure you're all aware, a little bit of late drift is MUCH better than large drift out of the hand.
4. Now lets bowl one with entirely top spin, this will make the ball "drift" downwards also known as dip. If bowled with back spin it will "drift" upwards and float towards the batsman a bit (could theoretically get the ball to actually move upwards like this ).
5. Bowl one with 50/50 (possibly technically 46.7/53.3 or some weird number like that because physics) corkscrew spin and top spin and you'll have what I would call the perfect off/leg break, this should theoretically start above the batters eyes, drift a touch, and the start dipping and drifting late in its flight. But because using the pitch is also a part of cricket this would vary pitch by pitch.
6. However, most bowlers have a slight bit of "flying saucer" spin and its hard not to, an example is Ravichandran Ashwin:
That's mostly upright but it is slightly tilted to the right. I would imagine this is more due to natural hands position and that slight difference making absolutely no effect on what his off break does. But for the sake of this, it should technically make his off break spin more, because as was failed to be mentioned earlier, your delivery does not fall at a 90 degree angle, so ideally a little bit of saucer spin isn't a bad thing. This will generate the most drift.
7. The arm ball/swinging flipper. This will be a mix of both back and side spin and is basically just a out/inswinger. From experience this is a great delivery, especially if you naturally drift the ball into a batsman and turn it away, you can set them up and then bowl one that still swings in but doesn't turn. Chinaman34 has experienced this first hand, although ironically this is the only delivery he made contact with
. This ball should both drift and swing by both mechanisms I attached at the start of this post, making it move a lot in the air, especially with a newer ball. This is another delivery by Ashwin, it won't move as much as it would if it had more backspin, but this would be significantly harder to pick.
Leggy88
Well-Known Member
A new page should be started soon anyhow so a couple more messages and you should be good
Leggy88
Well-Known Member
Alright so here it is:
View attachment 2713
View attachment 2705
So as the air hits the rotating ball, the side rotating with the flow (bottom) allows the air to quickly pass over the ball and because of physics, fast air has a lower pressure. The airflow that hits the side rotating against the airflow slows it down and causes it to be turbulent and slower air = higher pressure. Because one side has a higher pressure than other, and this higher pressure side quickly separates from the ball, it causes the ball to move towards the low pressure side. This is drift.
View attachment 2712
View attachment 2706
For swing, its a similar concept, except because there is a seam creating turbulence, as opposed to the ball rotating against the flow of air, the turbulent air is not pushed off of the ball, and actually sticks to it for longer than the laminar flow would for the other side. This causes the ball to move towards the way the seam is pointing.
It is a little confusing because drift moves away from the turbulent side and swing moves towards it. But I guess the important difference is that the turbulent air separates quickly for drift whereas swing separates late. I would look further but I have neither the time, nor the brainpower to do that.
That's the confusing physics part, now for the more theory crafting part I was looking forward to. For the sake of consistency imagine all these deliveries have exactly the same RPM.
1. So, lets say you send down a perfectly side spinning off/leg break, completely flat, with no flight and only "Corkscrew" spin and no "flying saucer", top or back spin, it will only drift slightly and consistently throughout its flight (due to some wind getting caught and dragged in by the seam). This is because the magnus effect requires the ball to be spinning with/against the flow of air.
2. Now say you bowl it with the same trajectory and speed, but with entirely "flying saucer" spin. This delivery should drift massively, but again should move out of the hand and consistently throughout flight. This one is funny because if air resistance and gravity didn't exist it could technically drift 180 degrees and come back to you.
3. Now go back to the "corkscrew" spin, except this time you toss it up and let it drop a bit. At the start of its flight path, when its moving parallel to the ground it will not drift much (like in #1), however, once it starts to drop at the end of its flight, its axis of spin will line up with the airflow and the magnus effect will take a much greater effect, causing the ball to drift late in its flight. This should not move as much as #2, but as I'm sure you're all aware, a little bit of late drift is MUCH better than large drift out of the hand.
4. Now lets bowl one with entirely top spin, this will make the ball "drift" downwards also known as dip. If bowled with back spin it will "drift" upwards and float towards the batsman a bit (could theoretically get the ball to actually move upwards like this ).
5. Bowl one with 50/50 (possibly technically 46.7/53.3 or some weird number like that because physics) corkscrew spin and top spin and you'll have what I would call the perfect off/leg break, this should theoretically start above the batters eyes, drift a touch, and the start dipping and drifting late in its flight. But because using the pitch is also a part of cricket this would vary pitch by pitch.
6. However, most bowlers have a slight bit of "flying saucer" spin and its hard not to, an example is Ravichandran Ashwin:
View attachment 2707
That's mostly upright but it is slightly tilted to the right. I would imagine this is more due to natural hands position and that slight difference making absolutely no effect on what his off break does. But for the sake of this, it should technically make his off break spin more, because as was failed to be mentioned earlier, your delivery does not fall at a 90 degree angle, so ideally a little bit of saucer spin isn't a bad thing. This will generate the most drift.
7. The arm ball/swinging flipper. This will be a mix of both back and side spin and is basically just a out/inswinger. From experience this is a great delivery, especially if you naturally drift the ball into a batsman and turn it away, you can set them up and then bowl one that still swings in but doesn't turn. Chinaman34 has experienced this first hand, although ironically this is the only delivery he made contact with
View attachment 2711
Wow, really in depth analysis there, where'd you learn all this by the way? Physics class haha?
Physics ATAR and dash of boredom