Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My young bloke went good at nets tonight. Even tried a flipper on a 3rd grade adult they ended up bowling to at practise. That surprised the batsman a bit, he knew what it was. He was mainly sweeping my sons bowling. Now we dont practise the flipper much, I was sorry i showed him after he got sore a thumb from it, but he can pull it out when he wants, and it usually comes out OK, which amazes me. It does not backspin a great deal, I can read it from the hand easy, but it still behaves so different from his other stuff. A lot of the kids were rusty because of the long Xmas holiday and last weeks washout.

But we have been doing 6 to 8 overs every day since boxing day ( that's enough for u/12), out in the middle during the heat of the day. My kid was landing them and spinning them tonight just like we have working on. We have been spending about half our time bowling at three lanes i have been chalking on the pitch. leg , middle and off. trying to land in the nominated lane on a fullish length.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;387317 said:
As a Wrist Spinner I think you have to take what happens in the nets with a pinch of salt. As Macca has just said with regards Grimmetts comments on caged subjects, you've got to go with that kind of frame of mind but also realise that as caged subjects they're not going to be acting as they would in their normal environment. I think on some days you can go with a bit of a plan and work on some aspect of your bowling, but as Jim and I have said you can't get a rythmn going. The blokes at my club make me laugh along with a comment the coach made "Make sure the numbers are even in the nets so that you can have a breather in between balls" and the truth is they need it and they're for the most part 20 years younger than me!

On your own is the best way with a set of stumps or some kind of target and a bucket of cheap balls. Or maybe with a leggie at the other end and bowling back and forth.
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I always find that it really depends on how seriously the batmen are taking the session.

Some of the older batmen at my club will treat it very much as a game situation, ask you about your field and be selective in their shots. Others are just there to try slog every ball.

Sometimes it is frustrating but you need to ask these players if they're here to get better or to muck about.

One way I've tried to do this is by introducing a scenario close to the end of the session saying that they need 10 runs off 4 balls or something like that. that way they know they'll get to have a slog at some stage.

That said I think it's important to realise how you will get wickets.

Here is a break down of Mr Warne's wickets in tests over the years.

------------------Dis - bwd - c fie - c wk - st - lbw - hw - Ave - 0s
right-h batsman - 536 - 86 -- 259 --54 -----25- 112-- 0 -- 22.10 94
left-h batsman ---172 --30 --86 ---19 -----11-- 26 -- 0 -- 28.32 8

As you can see the number of those caught by a fielder is pretty high, pretty much 50%. The percentages are pretty much the same in ODI's. So let them play shots that's what you want.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Paulinho;387377 said:
I always find that it really depends on how seriously the batmen are taking the session.

Some of the older batmen at my club will treat it very much as a game situation, ask you about your field and be selective in their shots. Others are just there to try slog every ball.

Sometimes it is frustrating but you need to ask these players if they're here to get better or to muck about.

One way I've tried to do this is by introducing a scenario close to the end of the session saying that they need 10 runs off 4 balls or something like that. that way they know they'll get to have a slog at some stage.

That said I think it's important to realise how you will get wickets.

Here is a break down of Mr Warne's wickets in tests over the years.

------------------Dis - bwd - c fie - c wk - st - lbw - hw - Ave - 0s
right-h batsman - 536 - 86 -- 259 --54 -----25- 112-- 0 -- 22.10 94
left-h batsman ---172 --30 --86 ---19 -----11-- 26 -- 0 -- 28.32 8

As you can see the number of those caught by a fielder is pretty high, pretty much 50%. The percentages are pretty much the same in ODI's. So let them play shots that what you want.
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Yeah that's true, we have a couple of blokes that will curse when they make a mistake and they'll say 'Yeah that would have gone straight to cover' or where-ever, so I suppose if they're practicing in that manner that's useful. In the same way if I get them bowling a variation and they seem bemused at the dismissal, I'll say that's cos it was a wrong un or whatever. But I reckon that the wait between balls is the worst aspect.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387415 said:
And I thought this is a really good one. Shows where to pitch it to right and left hand batters. They seem to imply that 4 metres from the stumps is as full as you should get, with 5.5 metres set as the shortest length. Looks a little too short from what we have discussed through the months http://www.cricketnsw.com/site/_content/document/00000760-source.pdf
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That's good to see as I pretty much do all this stuff myself. The point you make about the length is probably relevant to pro's playing and as we've all discussed before none of us (As far as I know) are bowling at 50-55mph with big turn off the wicket. Give Jim another couple of seasons what with his age, analysis and determination he might be the first past the post on this front. As for me I'm definitely in the 40mph brigade and as someone said a couple of days ago it may have been Macca or my coach.....

1. Don't bowl short.
2. Get it right up there under their noses
3. Better to bowl a full toss than short

I like the grid thing and the use of a sequence and the fact that Stuart McGill is advocating using this as a training technique. I used to do this in my first couple of years and often used to record the frequency of wides, long and short balls and analyse the results. I even went as far as having an excel spreadsheet that worked out averages of wides, short balls and good balls and it helped to drive my accuracy as I was always looking to come away with improved results. But I felt a bit autistic doing it - like a bloody tainspotter, but it seems I was in good company with my approach!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387415 said:
And I thought this is a really good one. Shows where to pitch it to right and left hand batters. They seem to imply that 4 metres from the stumps is as full as you should get, with 5.5 metres set as the shortest length. Looks a little too short from what we have discussed through the months http://www.cricketnsw.com/site/_content/document/00000760-source.pdf
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Sort of what we have been doing. Only we are a bit fuller than that. Helps develop the ability to change line especially to those damn lefties.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

macca;387435 said:
Sort of what we have been doing. Only we are a bit fuller than that. Helps develop the ability to change line especially to those damn lefties.
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i know that MacGill's lengths look a touch on the short side, but its deceptive. 4 metres is basically 4 yards, and over a yard of that is made up by the batting crease. so youve got a little over 3 yards from batting crease to your "full length" target, and MacGill is saying look to land the ball in the 1.5 yards in front of that.

the way i work out my "ideal" length is to stand in my crease as an average batsman would. so back foot about 8" inside the crease, take a guard, and then i look to play a forward front foot drive and see where my bat ends up. i then look to land the ball upto a yard in front of that length. the idea being that i want the batsman driving forwards, and i want the ball to land just far enough away from his bat (bearing in mind it should dip on him as well, so hes going to expect if fuller than it actually is) that it can turn and bounce enough to find an edge, or a scooped catch to a fielder, or him completely miss it and get stumped trying to get down the pitch.

that typically works out at about 4 yards from the stumps. and obviously the faster you bowl, the further away you can land the ball and still cause problems. but ultimately i dont think pace alters anything. you still want the ball landing about a yard from the bat at most. more pace just makes it even harder to play!!

but the one thing the MacGill method misses out is that on that length youre only talking about "ideal" scenarios. batsmen who want to come forwards and not those who just hang back. MacGill is obviously more used to facing top class batsmen who more often than not will come forwards. those who dont come forwards are generally useless against spin and easy to get out anyway. at club level there are good players who dont come forwards though. in which case you need to adjust your plans and bowl fuller. so its important to practice bowling fuller as well.

but i do think the "stock" ball to a righty should be a 45 degree overspun leg break, pitched inline with middle stump (middle of orange and blue), about 4 yards from the stumps.

and the stock ball to a leftie would be on the same length, 45 degree overspun leg break, pitching about a foot outside off stump (middle of blue and yellow).

so in that regard the MacGill practice method is pretty much spot on.

to relate those lengths to my own batting against leggies (which i am starting to pride myself on. ive got some very effective methods based on what i wouldnt want to bowl against lol) - i play with my back foot barely touching the batting crease line. i position it just inside enough that my toe stays in if i lunge right forwards. anything fuller than 2 yards from my crease gets played full toss. anything between 2-4 yards and either inline with the stumps or outside leg gets swept. the same length outside off either gets left or cut off the back foot. anything shorter than 4 yards inline with the stumps or outside leg gets played off the back foot with whatever shot suits. and if its short and outside off il either come down the pitch at it, or play a slog off the back foot.

the hardest shots to play are those that are pitched on middle stump about 3-4 yards out from the batting crease. il always look to sweep, but its always a risky shot if there is turn and/or bounce. at the same time, if you can sweep every "perfect" ball then the bowler will completely lose his rhythm/confidence, try changing his line and length, and then hes easy pickings. a smart bowler/captain would just adjust the field to negate the sweep (not that it would stop me playing it, its my best shot by far), but they never ever do. every time ive faced a leggie theyve always gifted me runs off the sweep and then shortened their length to try and stop me doing it. and each time ive got out stumped or caught (edged to slips) about 4 yards out of my crease slogging lol.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387492 said:
i know that MacGill's lengths look a touch on the short side, but its deceptive. 4 metres is basically 4 yards, and over a yard of that is made up by the batting crease. so youve got a little over 3 yards from batting crease to your "full length" target, and MacGill is saying look to land the ball in the 1.5 yards in front of that.

the way i work out my "ideal" length is to stand in my crease as an average batsman would. so back foot about 8" inside the crease, take a guard, and then i look to play a forward front foot drive and see where my bat ends up. i then look to land the ball upto a yard in front of that length. the idea being that i want the batsman driving forwards, and i want the ball to land just far enough away from his bat (bearing in mind it should dip on him as well, so hes going to expect if fuller than it actually is) that it can turn and bounce enough to find an edge, or a scooped catch to a fielder, or him completely miss it and get stumped trying to get down the pitch.

that typically works out at about 4 yards from the stumps. and obviously the faster you bowl, the further away you can land the ball and still cause problems. but ultimately i dont think pace alters anything. you still want the ball landing about a yard from the bat at most. more pace just makes it even harder to play!!

but the one thing the MacGill method misses out is that on that length youre only talking about "ideal" scenarios. batsmen who want to come forwards and not those who just hang back. MacGill is obviously more used to facing top class batsmen who more often than not will come forwards. those who dont come forwards are generally useless against spin and easy to get out anyway. at club level there are good players who dont come forwards though. in which case you need to adjust your plans and bowl fuller. so its important to practice bowling fuller as well.

but i do think the "stock" ball to a righty should be a 45 degree overspun leg break, pitched inline with middle stump (middle of orange and blue), about 4 yards from the stumps.

and the stock ball to a leftie would be on the same length, 45 degree overspun leg break, pitching about a foot outside off stump (middle of blue and yellow).

so in that regard the MacGill practice method is pretty much spot on.

to relate those lengths to my own batting against leggies (which i am starting to pride myself on. ive got some very effective methods based on what i wouldnt want to bowl against lol) - i play with my back foot barely touching the batting crease line. i position it just inside enough that my toe stays in if i lunge right forwards. anything fuller than 2 yards from my crease gets played full toss. anything between 2-4 yards and either inline with the stumps or outside leg gets swept. the same length outside off either gets left or cut off the back foot. anything shorter than 4 yards inline with the stumps or outside leg gets played off the back foot with whatever shot suits. and if its short and outside off il either come down the pitch at it, or play a slog off the back foot.

the hardest shots to play are those that are pitched on middle stump about 3-4 yards out from the batting crease. il always look to sweep, but its always a risky shot if there is turn and/or bounce. at the same time, if you can sweep every "perfect" ball then the bowler will completely lose his rhythm/confidence, try changing his line and length, and then hes easy pickings. a smart bowler/captain would just adjust the field to negate the sweep (not that it would stop me playing it, its my best shot by far), but they never ever do. every time ive faced a leggie theyve always gifted me runs off the sweep and then shortened their length to try and stop me doing it. and each time ive got out stumped or caught (edged to slips) about 4 yards out of my crease slogging lol.
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Yeah - this is a point of confusion, when they talk about the length I think it's useful to talk in terms of where the batsman is standing, some for instance stand forward of the crease and a big bloke with his back foot on the crease and looking to get down on his knee and reach for the ball makes a mockery of any length description that uses the stumps as the measurement indicator.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

On Jim's point here - "but i do think the "stock" ball to a righty should be a 45 degree overspun leg break, pitched inline with middle stump (middle of orange and blue), about 4 yards from the stumps.

That pretty much sounds like a good tactic, the length would equate to Jim's description of standing at the crease and stretching your arm and bat out to guage your length, my own approach would be to target middle and off, but I probably spin the ball a lot less than Jim?

and the stock ball to a leftie would be on the same length, 45 degree overspun leg break, pitching about a foot outside off stump (middle of blue and yellow)".

So as a RH user of the Biggun this'll be like RH batsman being bowled a wrong un as the balls going to turn into the LH bats body. I reckon this approach would probably go for runs. In my experience during the Googly syndrome anyone with any nous with the bat soon sussed that my main ball was pitched up outside of off stump and then turned into them and they'd soon just simply step back and cut the ball away. I suppose if you bowled combining straight balls and balls that turned a lot less and only just outside the off-stump and varied your position on the crease, flight etc, you'd increase your potential?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Had a bit of a bowl in the garden this morning. It's not ideal as firstly it's uneven, secondly the grass is long and damp and thirdly there's not quite enough room for 22 yards plus a five-pace run up (it's only a yard or two short), but it'll have to do. For an absolute beginner I was relatively pleased with the outcome, even if I did lose two of my three "disposable" balls, one in the neighbour's garden and one in my own garden somewhere...

The dampness was a bit of an issue, and after I lost the first two balls the one left was just soaking up the water. By the end it was very tricky to get the release reliable, but about 8 times out of 10 I got the ball within a metre of where it was aimed. I have some issues spraying the ball diagonally but this seems to be solved if I remember to aim my non-bowling arm. Once or twice I got the whole action right and it looked pretty good. It's hard to judge what the spin was like as the grass is so thick and uneven the bounce can be all over the place.

The really good news is my shoulder seems to be almost sorted, and I'm not totally hopeless.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387492 said:
i know that MacGill's lengths look a touch on the short side, but its deceptive. 4 metres is basically 4 yards, and over a yard of that is made up by the batting crease. so youve got a little over 3 yards from batting crease to your "full length" target, and MacGill is saying look to land the ball in the 1.5 yards in front of that.
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I was reading it upside down then ! About 4 yards from the stumps is roughly what they call a good length for a legspinner to bowl at an adult. But this varies a lot in practise and the height of the batsman can be one factor. At my sons age 12 years he needs to be a bit fuller than that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387522 said:
Had a bit of a bowl in the garden this morning. It's not ideal as firstly it's uneven, secondly the grass is long and damp and thirdly there's not quite enough room for 22 yards plus a five-pace run up (it's only a yard or two short), but it'll have to do. For an absolute beginner I was relatively pleased with the outcome, even if I did lose two of my three "disposable" balls, one in the neighbour's garden and one in my own garden somewhere...

The dampness was a bit of an issue, and after I lost the first two balls the one left was just soaking up the water. By the end it was very tricky to get the release reliable, but about 8 times out of 10 I got the ball within a metre of where it was aimed. I have some issues spraying the ball diagonally but this seems to be solved if I remember to aim my non-bowling arm. Once or twice I got the whole action right and it looked pretty good. It's hard to judge what the spin was like as the grass is so thick and uneven the bounce can be all over the place.

The really good news is my shoulder seems to be almost sorted, and I'm not totally hopeless.
Click to expand...

A good length for you might be a few feet up the garden wall ? Sounds like you have a bit of room to work with. You can still get a lot done with just a wall and a few yards space.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;387499 said:
So as a RH user of the Biggun this'll be like RH batsman being bowled a wrong un as the balls going to turn into the LH bats body. I reckon this approach would probably go for runs. In my experience during the Googly syndrome anyone with any nous with the bat soon sussed that my main ball was pitched up outside of off stump and then turned into them and they'd soon just simply step back and cut the ball away. I suppose if you bowled combining straight balls and balls that turned a lot less and only just outside the off-stump and varied your position on the crease, flight etc, you'd increase your potential?
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id say its more like the same as an off spinner bowling to a right hander. using the wrong'un comparison just complicates things as its a variation, not the stock ball.

so if you look at an offie bowling to a right hander, lets say Graeme Swann or Nathan Hauritz because they are both aggressive and conventional - theyll pitch the ball anywhere between middle stump and 18" outside off stump. almost always on a good length, with varying amounts of turn (more through natural variation than anything else). the only time they get hit for easy runs is if the ball strays across the stumps and gets tucked away on the leg side, or if they pitch it too full or too short on the off side. anything else requires the batsman to work for it.

left handers are usually super strong off their pads. its the nature of facing right arm over the wicket bowlers all their life who cant adjust their line to the occasional leftie. if you bowl at their stumps, youll go for runs. so you really dont have a choice but to pitch it outside off stump if youre getting it to turn. the key is length. too short and its easy for anyone, regardless of their dominant hand. too full and its a nice half volley. if a left hander is cutting you then bowl fuller. if hes driving you without a big stride then bowl marginally shorter. if hes coming forward to drive or sweeping then youre probably about right. and variations are arguably more effective against a leftie. the wrong'un will cause major problems unless its read, sliders and flippers outside off stump can easily create catches, an overly flighted overspun leg break is great on a hard wicket, because bounce is a nightmare to play when the ball is coming in at the body, gloves come into play bigtime.

also, from now on im bowling to lefties round the wicket. i did it at the end of last season and it worked better for me than over the wicket. and in nets so far its caused no end of problems. ive bowled my best deliveries to left handers, because outside leg stump is my natural line anyway (id rather it wasnt, but for now its where everything ends up). i get super wide on the crease, round the wicket, and pitch it up with overspin. compared to an offie you can generate twice the turn and bounce, and watch how many problems Graeme Swann causes in test matches when he gets it bouncing high!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My sons' team got beaten again yesterday. He was 13 th man but still got to bowl 2 overs. He went for 3 singles, and went close to getting 2 wickets. One catch popped up to short leg off a lefthander and was nearly taken. I was really pleased with how he went though. He was bowling from the wrong end, I could see him looping the ball nicely and getting it to drop.

Shane Warne presented Steve Smith with his Aus twenty20 cap on Friday night and got pretty excited in the commentary box when smithy came on to bowl. At one stage Warne goes " bowl him a flipper, youv'e got a good one". Warne has tried to avoid pumping up smiths tyres too much and not pressure the kid, but warne admitted he was psyched up watching the new spinner. A few people have commented on how smith's bowling has improved since his coaching sessions with warne. He has slowed down his run up and is rotating his arm up and over properly now. Smith shapes the ball a lot like Warne.

Smith got the lefthander caught at slip by sliding an arm ball out of the front of his hand past him after some big loopy legspinners. The righthander was stumped and the replay showed Smith bowled that delivery over a foot further back than his normal delivery.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387525 said:
also, from now on im bowling to lefties round the wicket. i did it at the end of last season and it worked better for me than over the wicket. and in nets so far its caused no end of problems. ive bowled my best deliveries to left handers, because outside leg stump is my natural line anyway (id rather it wasnt, but for now its where everything ends up). i get super wide on the crease, round the wicket, and pitch it up with overspin. compared to an offie you can generate twice the turn and bounce, and watch how many problems Graeme Swann causes in test matches when he gets it bouncing high!!
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I tell my young bloke to start off over the wicket to the lefthander than come around the wicket after a couple of balls. Another one of those things you can try is batting lefthanded yourself to someone bowling legspin. You notice when he switches from over to around that change of angle. You have to adjust how you bat. I reckon my kid bowls better around the wicket to the lefthanders.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387525 said:
id say its more like the same as an off spinner bowling to a right hander. using the wrong'un comparison just complicates things as its a variation, not the stock ball.

so if you look at an offie bowling to a right hander, lets say Graeme Swann or Nathan Hauritz because they are both aggressive and conventional - theyll pitch the ball anywhere between middle stump and 18" outside off stump. almost always on a good length, with varying amounts of turn (more through natural variation than anything else). the only time they get hit for easy runs is if the ball strays across the stumps and gets tucked away on the leg side, or if they pitch it too full or too short on the off side. anything else requires the batsman to work for it.

left handers are usually super strong off their pads. its the nature of facing right arm over the wicket bowlers all their life who cant adjust their line to the occasional leftie. if you bowl at their stumps, youll go for runs. so you really dont have a choice but to pitch it outside off stump if youre getting it to turn. the key is length. too short and its easy for anyone, regardless of their dominant hand. too full and its a nice half volley. if a left hander is cutting you then bowl fuller. if hes driving you without a big stride then bowl marginally shorter. if hes coming forward to drive or sweeping then youre probably about right. and variations are arguably more effective against a leftie. the wrong'un will cause major problems unless its read, sliders and flippers outside off stump can easily create catches, an overly flighted overspun leg break is great on a hard wicket, because bounce is a nightmare to play when the ball is coming in at the body, gloves come into play bigtime.

also, from now on im bowling to lefties round the wicket. i did it at the end of last season and it worked better for me than over the wicket. and in nets so far its caused no end of problems. ive bowled my best deliveries to left handers, because outside leg stump is my natural line anyway (id rather it wasnt, but for now its where everything ends up). i get super wide on the crease, round the wicket, and pitch it up with overspin. compared to an offie you can generate twice the turn and bounce, and watch how many problems Graeme Swann causes in test matches when he gets it bouncing high!!
Click to expand...

I think this is the way to go if your leg break is a big turner, if you can't get it to turn off the wicket as much as you do, then your bowling would be simiilar to mine, in which case a tighter line around his off-stump and right under his nose. I'm on board with the round the wicket approach, against lefties I found this a far better way to bowl and then move around the crease as well.
 
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