Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[TonyM]

Macca, good to see you back, how is your lad?

As to why the English cricket set up is such a dismal failure in say producing an English legspinner who can land the ball on the actual cut section of the pitch. or a batsman that can play such deliveries is a mystery.

I think the weather impacts in a number of ways on English legspinners:

• firstly there are far less weeks in the year when they can properly train without being indoors
• there are also less weeks when they will have much success compared to a dibbly-dobbly medium pacer who will wobble the ball a bit
• the combination of the two points above mean that opportunities and real match experiences will be more limited as captains / coaches / selectors look for 'safer' options
• the combination of the three above mean a number of potential leggies end up either adopting an alternative bowling approach or convert to batters who 'bowl a bit'
• all of the above contribute to a lack of skill and knowledge that helps to reinforce the downward spiral, that said there are pockets and players can get through the system but its certainly not a easy route for a young cricketer

 

[Cleanprophet]

I agree Chino but I think Cleanprophets use of the word bigot is completely wrong in any way describing the English cricket set-up. I suspect he didn't mean the connotations of that word. In fact the so called "England" team is more likely to be peopled by everyone and anyone but Englishmen so you surely cant tag them bigots.

That's fair enough. It's your opinion. I didn't use the word 'bigot' in a throw away manner. I used it carefully because I believe it and still do. Many people misunderstand what a bigot is. A bigot can be a rascist and a bigot can simply be someone who is intolerant of other people's idea's, culture, class, gender and sexuality. A bigot doesn't necessarily take against people from a different nation or background. If a person is perfectly happy to assimilate to the beliefs and practices of the dominant, they will be accepted. Their exsistance in the dominant group does not therefore rid that group of bigotry it has simply expanded its number by one.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I think the weather impacts in a number of ways on English legspinners:

• firstly there are far less weeks in the year when they can properly train without being indoors
• there are also less weeks when they will have much success compared to a dibbly-dobbly medium pacer who will wobble the ball a bit
• the combination of the two points above mean that opportunities and real match experiences will be more limited as captains / coaches / selectors look for 'safer' options
• the combination of the three above mean a number of potential leggies end up either adopting an alternative bowling approach or convert to batters who 'bowl a bit'
• all of the above contribute to a lack of skill and knowledge that helps to reinforce the downward spiral, that said there are pockets and players can get through the system but its certainly not a easy route for a young cricketer

Absolutely. It is very tough for young legspinners. Plus, there is a culture of legspin in Australia that doesn't really exsist in England and that doesn't help.

I was watcing Boyce bowling in the T20 match against South Africa today and was very impressed. He's improved since I last saw him early this year. What impressed me most was the pace he bowled. Most modern legspinners (such as Imran Tahir) bowl it 85kph-90kph and bowl it quite flat. Boyce was bowling it 75kph-80kph and getting a really nice loop on it. Bowling at that pace means you have very little margin for error on your length. But if you get it right, it is (for me anyway) proper legspin. Boyce probably got his length wrong 3 or 4 times from his 24 balls. It was great control of length and it caused the South Africans all kinds of trouble.

Getting to that standard is hard work. The commentators said during the game, quite rightly, that a legspinner will have days when he goes for plenty but he will take wickets and win matches. A young legspinner has to be well aware of that but more important is that he has people around him who are well aware of this too (coach, captain and team mates).

 

[macca]

Macca, good to see you back, how is your lad?

He is going good and thanks for asking Tony. He will finish high school next year and wants to join the Air Force.

He plays Saturday afternoon club cricket with his mates these days and I don't get to see him play much but I can check his stats out online and as of last week he had taken 24 wickets in 49 overs for 116 runs in the first 5 games. That is in 2nd grade but you have to be bowling pretty good to get those figures in any comp.

I watched him bowl in the first game of the season and he took 6/16. This is a new club and team so he made a bit of a name for himself straight away.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

He is going good and thanks for asking Tony. He will finish high school next year and wants to join the Air Force.

He plays Saturday afternoon club cricket with his mates these days and I don't get to see him play much but I can check his stats out online and as of last week he had taken 24 wickets in 49 overs for 116 runs in the first 5 games. That is in 2nd grade but you have to be bowling pretty good to get those figures in any comp.

I watched him bowl in the first game of the season and he took 6/16. This is a new club and team so he made a bit of a name for himself straight away.

Whoa! That's pretty good stuff there, go Jimmy!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Absolutely. It is very tough for young legspinners. Plus, there is a culture of legspin in Australia that doesn't really exsist in England and that doesn't help.

I was watcing Boyce bowling in the T20 match against South Africa today and was very impressed. He's improved since I last saw him early this year. What impressed me most was the pace he bowled. Most modern legspinners (such as Imran Tahir) bowl it 85kph-90kph and bowl it quite flat. Boyce was bowling it 75kph-80kph and getting a really nice loop on it. Bowling at that pace means you have very little margin for error on your length. But if you get it right, it is (for me anyway) proper legspin. Boyce probably got his length wrong 3 or 4 times from his 24 balls. It was great control of length and it caused the South Africans all kinds of trouble.

Getting to that standard is hard work. The commentators said during the game, quite rightly, that a legspinner will have days when he goes for plenty but he will take wickets and win matches. A young legspinner has to be well aware of that but more important is that he has people around him who are well aware of this too (coach, captain and team mates).

I've missed much of t

Has anyone seen Yasir Shah bowling against Australia in the test, he flicks the ball hand to hand weirdly, any benefit of flicking it like him?

It that series still being covered or have you got a link to a bit of Youtube footage with him doing it?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Yes. The sun exists in Australia, allowing us to play cricket on average 100% more than the English who sit inside watching it rain.

I've always thought this to be a massive advantage to the Aussies, if you read Peter Philpotts books, the impression you get is back in the day (at least) the cricket players finish their season and then start a Baseball season across your 'Winter'. I think Macca did this when he was young? Your weather is simply far more conducive with doing stuff outdoors and continuing to practice. The other impression I get is that there's a cricket ground or some kind of facilities specifically for cricket every other block? What's it like in schools at all age levels?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Thankfully, I've missed the above and for reasons of keeping the forum alive can I suggest that those that do want to continue with it, do so via personal message systems, or at the very least, start a new thread separate to this one?

This forum is quite popular and the range of people that view it is far larger than the people that make the contributions to it. As we're probably aware, we get people come and go and make valid contributions during their stay, as they fathom whether their is any future in pursuing wrist-spinning. We want (Well - I certainly do) this forum to attract readers and writers? I think the last two pages has the kind of content that should be avoided where possible, so would ask everybody to keep to the main theme here please?

 

[Cleanprophet]

It that series still being covered or have you got a link to a bit of Youtube footage with him doing it?

That series has finished now, but Pakistan are playing NZ at the moment and Yasir Shah will be bowling to the NZ batters today.

 

[leftie600]

That series has finished now, but Pakistan are playing NZ at the moment and Yasir Shah will be bowling to the NZ batters today.

Fully expecting him to roll through us and give Ish Sodhi a lesson in accuracy while McCullum gets a lesson from Misbah about field settings for legspin.

There was one weird field where the off and on side were mirror images, as one of the commentators said "...where is McCullum asking him to bowl?"

 

[Cleanprophet]

There was one weird field where the off and on side were mirror images, as one of the commentators said "...where is McCullum asking him to bowl?"

I saw that split screen. I was confused at first as I've never seen a split screen used like that before.

They showed a split screen of Yasir Shah and Ish Sodhi bowling. That was very interesting. Yasir Shah finishes a bit more front on than most leg spinners, but he still gets through his action impressively with a good quick arm. Ramiz Raja was saying that Yasir gets more revs on the ball than Sodhi. I've watched most of it on the internet and the footage hasn't been good enough to see for sure who gets more revs on the ball. There's a great thing I've seen used in Test matches in England called the "rev counter" that does just that, calculates the revs per minute (RPM). I think a lot of modern training facilities have this RPM checker now and it's surely only a matter of time until we see it in most Test matches because it really is very interesting to see. One thing I remember clearly is seeing how the spinner's RPM increases after he takes a wicket and his confidence increases. Plus, of course, it's great for just seeing how many revs a spinner can get. I think the most I've seen so far in a Test is about 2650 RPM.

 

[shahidpak]

I saw that split screen. I was confused at first as I've never seen a split screen used like that before.

They showed a split screen of Yasir Shah and Ish Sodhi bowling. That was very interesting. Yasir Shah finishes a bit more front on than most leg spinners, but he still gets through his action impressively with a good quick arm. Ramiz Raja was saying that Yasir gets more revs on the ball than Sodhi. I've watched most of it on the internet and the footage hasn't been good enough to see for sure who gets more revs on the ball. There's a great thing I've seen used in Test matches in England called the "rev counter" that does just that, calculates the revs per minute (RPM). I think a lot of modern training facilities have this RPM checker now and it's surely only a matter of time until we see it in most Test matches because it really is very interesting to see. One thing I remember clearly is seeing how the spinner's RPM increases after he takes a wicket and his confidence increases. Plus, of course, it's great for just seeing how many revs a spinner can get. I think the most I've seen so far in a Test is about 2650 RPM.

I saw ashwing getting about 3000 once

 

[Cleanprophet]

That rev counter is very interesting to watch, but I doubt if it's 100% accurate. It's probably just as accurate as the speed gun in most cases but far from perfect.

Moeen Ali got 2800RPM once, and his average revs suggest that he gets more revs than Swann did, so you can see why I
don't think it's that believable.

Do you think Shah ends up in a more front on position so he's ready for a caught and bowled immediately after releasing the ball? It seems probable as he bowls around the wickets to left-handers so he has to be alert. Or he's trying to get maximum drift and unconsciously transfers more momentum to his right?

I think Moeen Ali looks like he gives it more of a rip than Swann, so it could be right. I know Swann got the rev counter up to about 2450 at the most. I doubt any finger spinner can get it to 2800. That's wrist spin territory. There's no doubt the rev counter will get it wrong from time to time and throw in an incorrect reading. But I reckon it is quite reliable for most deliveries.

From what I've seen Yasir Shah just doesn't ever end up with that right shoulder pointing down the wicket in his follow through - unless he is bowling a googly.

 

[leftie600]

I saw that split screen. I was confused at first as I've never seen a split screen used like that before.

This is a different one, the one I'm talking about compared the field plans for Sodhi and for Yasir. Sodhi's field had a slip, leg slip, point, square leg, shortish cover, shortish midwicket, mid off, mid on and I guess they'd ask the 9th fielder to step off the field so they could keep the symmetry. Daft field really as it meant that McCulum had no faith in where Sodhi was going to pitch the ball or which way it was going to turn.

 

[leftie600]

Fundamentally I'm pretty sure more revs equals more drift, Yasir following through in the direction that he wants to land the ball is purely for accuracy and has nothing deliberate to do with drift.

 

[AngryRanga]

Any tips for having your wrist warmed up when you come on to bowl? I struggle in my first over or two because I can't get it warm. Just to clarify, not shoulder, wrist.

 

[AngryRanga]

Use you non-bowling hand to press the thumb of your bowling hand against your wrist. Hold your hand in a "stop" gesture in front of you, then pull your fingers back towards you. Point the back of your wrist forwards, again pulling your fingers towards you. Spin an imaginary ball from hand to hand, trying to get an audible 'flick'. These are the only warm-up stretches I can think of at the moment, but they work wonders to get your wrist loose and ready. Try not to keep your wrist in a static position for too long on the field.

Thanks mate. I originally thought it was some sort of nerves making me freeze up, but then it happened it the nets as well so I thought it had to be something to do with not warming up properly.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Any tips for having your wrist warmed up when you come on to bowl? I struggle in my first over or two because I can't get it warm. Just to clarify, not shoulder, wrist.

Yeah grab the tips of your fingers with your left hand and pull them back and stretch the tendon in your fore-arm. Then grab your hand and bend it as much as you can in the opposite direction. Do both with your arm extended fully. The rotate and twist your wrist with your arm extended. Alternate between all three for a few a minutes, don't continue if at any point you feel like you're pulling any muscles or tendons.
Other than that keep flicking a ball as much as you can or an orange or apple, all day every day as much as you can, while you're watching Youtube/tele etc.

 

[leftie600]

Fine, but just try it once and you'll see what I mean.

I agree that your follow through can effect how your arm comes over and thus how the ball comes out. But I'm still certain that Yasir follows through at his target as it gives him accuracy and enables him to maximise spin on the ball. The drift is a result of him maximising the spin.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I agree that your follow through can effect how your arm comes over and thus how the ball comes out. But I'm still certain that Yasir follows through at his target as it gives him accuracy and enables him to maximise spin on the ball. The drift is a result of him maximising the spin.

Grimmett mentioned something about bowling front on as a way to purposely bowl with the same energy and effort but put far fewer revs on the ball. But he was talking about hitting the crease chest on so as to not rotate very much. Yasir does hit the crease side-on and rotates. He just doesn't rotate 180 degrees like most spinners do. That will definitely help with accuracy because you can control your bowling arm much more. For most people however, a 90 degree rotation would mean their arm doesn't come through quick enough to put the sort of revs you need. Yasir Shah has a very quick arm and that compensates for that little bit less body rotation he has. Essentially, he generates the arm speed he needs with less rotation of the body. That's not easy to do.