Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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hemant said:
Does anyone here has this situation of two run-ups?
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I have always used a short run up (about 3 or 4 steps) but have developed a 9 step run up also. 9 large strides back from the stumps and then 2 strides to the side. I was using the longer run up at the end of last season and was getting much more energy on the ball but was having some other issues with my action, so I stopped the longer run up until the action was fixed. I'm almost at the point that I am ready to try the longer run up again. I have tried it two or three times but haven't sustained the use of the longer run up just yet. As Dave says, it can be tricky getting that longer run up right. Mainly because you are simply hitting the crease with more speed. Any slight balance issues are magnified the more speed you carry into your delivery stride. Equally, the more speed you carry into your delivery stride, the more energy you can get on the ball. You just have to bring that speed into the action whilst maintaining balance and rhythm.
 
hemant said:
Yes, I agree run-up is crucial and I have two run-ups:) One run-up is small one( one step) with more accuracy but still i think it has minor technical issues from perfect. This shorter one I am using in matches nicely and is default one.

The one I sent is what I am trying to build to have more energy into my deliveries and I am very comfortable with both as far as my own confidence is concerned. I believe bigger 9 step run-up has lot of momentum but it has some issues which is leading to some inaccuracy. Just note one fact that from the bound both actions are just same.

So let us see if I can continue with bigger one with more accuracy or I will have to build some muscles and continue shorter run-up.

Does anyone here has this situation of two run-ups?
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I've always had two or more run-ups depending on how badly I was bowling. When things started going wrong I would change to one of the other options and that would then remedy the problem. But looking back now it was a short term solution to a bigger problem. The bigger problem being that nothing that I was doing was consistent. Again I have to suggest to anyone who is having issues with their bowling to go back to the Stuart MacGill video. Make a note of the fact that it is nothing like the Warne videos - he doesn't focus on the deliveries. It focus's on the bowling action - the run up and the movement through the crease. The key thing to come away from it with - is the mantra Repetition, repetition, repetition. Make your run-up exactly the same every time you run in. Which means spending some time making the decision whether you're going to be a long run-up type like MacGill, medium like Tambir or short like Benaud or Smith.

- MacGill (Long)
- Bill O'Reilly


- Tambir (Medium)
- Afridi
- Rashid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3FtSCH-8U - Mushtaq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4PU4aZmOk - Benaud (Short)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxnYE0PYnPY - Smith

Two run-ups is just going to fudge the issue.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I've always had two or more run-ups depending on how badly I was bowling. When things started going wrong I would change to one of the other options and that would then remedy the problem. But looking back now it was a short term solution to a bigger problem. The bigger problem being that nothing that I was doing was consistent. Again I have to suggest to anyone who is having issues with their bowling to go back to the Stuart MacGill video. Make a note of the fact that it is nothing like the Warne videos - he doesn't focus on the deliveries. It focus's on the bowling action - the run up and the movement through the crease. The key thing to come away from it with - is the mantra Repetition, repetition, repetition. Make your run-up exactly the same every time you run in. Which means spending some time making the decision whether you're going to be a long run-up type like MacGill, medium like Tambir or short like Benaud or Smith.

- MacGill (Long)
- Bill O'Reilly


- Tambir (Medium)
- Afridi
- Rashid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3FtSCH-8U - Mushtaq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4PU4aZmOk - Benaud (Short)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxnYE0PYnPY - Smith

Two run-ups is just going to fudge the issue.
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Good find with the tiger footage I've never seen him bowl before! It really is a seamer style run up isn't it. I've mucked around with two run ups for years and it's a huge mistake, sort this out asap. I had my macgill and my Warne run up and chopped and changed if things started to go badly wrong and I thought that the longer bounding run up was the better one but since I started working with a coach he had me go back to slower smoother walking run up which had me really worried as i always thought it meant I would have to do more through the crease the get energy on the ball. But ultimately it turns out that if your basics are good it can work, that macgill video really spells it all out for you. These are my checkpoints now as bowl: Get side on so that you almost show the batsman your back, strong front arm, pull it in tight at the elbow to the body not flailing out to the side, pull straight at the batsman and let your wrist and hips do the spinning, release the ball late and finish with a full turn of the body straight down the wicket. And above all keep it smooth and controlled, then when you've got it set you can get more aggressive and still keep that smoothness. I'm always thinking controlled aggression. When I get loose it's tends to get jerky and there's more room for error. That's it really, when I get all this right it's looking good. The other elements I've been working in are mental, having a really set routine, keeping everything the same and relaxed. This is an area I think everyone neglects and it's so important, golfers really know a thing or two about this, it's just like having swing thoughts.
 
GoldenArm said:
Good find with the tiger footage I've never seen him bowl before! It really is a seamer style run up isn't it. I've mucked around with two run ups for years and it's a huge mistake, sort this out asap. I had my macgill and my Warne run up and chopped and changed if things started to go badly wrong and I thought that the longer bounding run up was the better one but since I started working with a coach he had me go back to slower smoother walking run up which had me really worried as i always thought it meant I would have to do more through the crease the get energy on the ball. But ultimately it turns out that if your basics are good it can work, that macgill video really spells it all out for you. These are my checkpoints now as bowl: Get side on so that you almost show the batsman your back, strong front arm, pull it in tight at the elbow to the body not flailing out to the side, pull straight at the batsman and let your wrist and hips do the spinning, release the ball late and finish with a full turn of the body straight down the wicket. And above all keep it smooth and controlled, then when you've got it set you can get more aggressive and still keep that smoothness. I'm always thinking controlled aggression. When I get loose it's tends to get jerky and there's more room for error. That's it really, when I get all this right it's looking good. The other elements I've been working in are mental, having a really set routine, keeping everything the same and relaxed. This is an area I think everyone neglects and it's so important, golfers really know a thing or two about this, it's just like having swing thoughts.
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Does this mean you're well up for it this season? I know I am, I reckon a little bit of work - and the stuff I did in November has set me up for a far better season without all the crap I go through arsing around with this or that run-up. Really looking forward to it this year - totally optimistic, reckon I'll be bagging wickets all over the shop.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Does this mean you're well up for it this season? I know I am, I reckon a little bit of work - and the stuff I did in November has set me up for a far better season without all the crap I go through arsing around with this or that run-up. Really looking forward to it this year - totally optimistic, reckon I'll be bagging wickets all over the shop.
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Mate I am so up for it, I've been practising twice a week for the last 3 months, once with a coach and once at open nets. Next month our club nets start at the schools brand new sports hall which will be amazing so I can up the practice even more. I've been reading every spin book I can find and re-reading the classics, watching footage endlessly. And best of all I'm just really enjoying my bowling, I feel like I've been throwing darts at a board in the dark the last few years trying to become the bowler I wanted to be. I'd gone as far as I could on my own and it's taken another pair of eyes and some sound advice to start moving things on to the next level. It all seems so much clearer when someone's stood there saying 'let's try this' and you get useful feedback. With this checkpoint system we've developed for my action I've got the safety valves philpott talks about in place. Something to fall back on If I start bowling rubbish, I just say right lets go through the list and get them in place. I've just got to practice my arse off now and work on mental game and workinWith any luck I won't just bowl well in the nets and then occasionally in a game but I'll be consistently doing the business. And let's face it all batsman are scared of a leggie!! We've just got to exert pressure long enough for it to pay off and not just rely on those wonder balls or variations. Our Sunday keeper is going to wear a go pro for all our games this season so I should get some good footage hopefully to post up here!
 
All sounds good and very promising. Very good to have another pair of eyes to watch and give advice. Some of the major issues I've had is the not knowing whether I'm doing something too much or not enough. I film my bowling in the nets everytime now and I don't know how I ever got by without recording my bowling and watching it back. But, immediate feedback is the best and you need another pair of eyes for that.

I've been to a school gym for our club's indoor nets. I didn't like them at all. It's on a wooden floor. The matting they put down only adds a small amount of bounce and there's precious little bounce to begin with. I just can't get used to it and, really, I don't want to get used to it because I've never played on a pitch with bounce like that and never will (I've played on a pitch with no bounce, but it's had no pace as well - this wooden flooring is just unlike anything you will get off a natural grass surface). I may just give the indoor nets a miss and stick to the outdoor nets.

Those checkpoints in an action are a great thing too. Always good to have 3 or 4 things that you use as reference points. I'd advise to film your bowling once a week too to keep an eye on it.

Confidence is key for a wrist spinner as well, but you don't want to get get carried away. Dave, you need to keep your wicket taking expectations tempered a bit I reckon. If you expect to take loads of wickets and don't, you may start to doubt yourself. What you don't want is one of those games where you don't get much spin and the batters are going after you. In that scenario, you will get confused and tighten up, making it a lot worse. Go into games relaxed and with no wicket taking expectations. Have lots of expectation that your action is solid and will be effective, but don't expect to take wickets.
 
I reckon nets will temper me, nets usually depress me a bit - again wooden floor, with an old bit of cheap green rubber on top as an excuse for a surface. No turn - no variation from the surface. But over those weeks facing that kind of crap I normally adapt my bowling - and start to find solutions - flippers and Top-Spinners. By the time nets has finished I've usually come up with a plan and solutions and last year converted to the games at the start of the season and I bowled really well. I guess if I've come up with nothing by then with the new improved action, I'll have to re-assess my optimism?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I reckon nets will temper me, nets usually depress me a bit - again wooden floor, with an old bit of cheap green rubber on top as an excuse for a surface. No turn - no variation from the surface. But over those weeks facing that kind of crap I normally adapt my bowling - and start to find solutions - flippers and Top-Spinners. By the time nets has finished I've usually come up with a plan and solutions and last year converted to the games at the start of the season and I bowled really well. I guess if I've come up with nothing by then with the new improved action, I'll have to re-assess my optimism?
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I'm giving the indoor nets a miss from now on. They're completely unlike any grass pitch you will bowl on. I don't see the point in adapting my bowling to bowl on them. As you say, a wooden floor that absorbs all the pace/bounce out of the ball is just no good for a spinner. For me, it's all very counter productive.

I'm finding that I'm just not spinning the ball as much as I used to. I've checked my action and release and most balls do have the release position I want, but a few balls just don't turn. I don't know whether it's the surface I'm bowling on (outdoor nets, but not the usual surface so it could be inconsistent - though it used to be fairly consistent), whether the balls are just a bit old and lacking any sort of decent seam, whether I'm landing more balls off the seam than I used to or whether I'm just not getting as many revs as I used to. Unfortunately, the actual outdoor lanes have been laid on clay (one of the more hairbrain decisions by the idiots at my club), so any moisture that lands on them just sits there until the sun does it's business. Come Feb/March there are weeds and moss growing on them because the moisture is perfect for them! Even in the summer, if there's been any rain in the day, the lanes are too wet to get much turn. When they're dry, you get consistent movement. But, it probably won't be until April, at the earliest, that we get enough dry weather to make those lanes useful for me.
 
Cleanprophet said:
I'm giving the indoor nets a miss from now on. They're completely unlike any grass pitch you will bowl on. I don't see the point in adapting my bowling to bowl on them. As you say, a wooden floor that absorbs all the pace/bounce out of the ball is just no good for a spinner. For me, it's all very counter productive.

I'm finding that I'm just not spinning the ball as much as I used to. I've checked my action and release and most balls do have the release position I want, but a few balls just don't turn. I don't know whether it's the surface I'm bowling on (outdoor nets, but not the usual surface so it could be inconsistent - though it used to be fairly consistent), whether the balls are just a bit old and lacking any sort of decent seam, whether I'm landing more balls off the seam than I used to or whether I'm just not getting as many revs as I used to. Unfortunately, the actual outdoor lanes have been laid on clay (one of the more hairbrain decisions by the idiots at my club), so any moisture that lands on them just sits there until the sun does it's business. Come Feb/March there are weeds and moss growing on them because the moisture is perfect for them! Even in the summer, if there's been any rain in the day, the lanes are too wet to get much turn. When they're dry, you get consistent movement. But, it probably won't be until April, at the earliest, that we get enough dry weather to make those lanes useful for me.
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CP is it you that's at the same club as 'Acko' the Youtube batsman?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
CP is it you that's at the same club as 'Acko' the Youtube batsman?
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Yeah, he's at the same club as me. That's our club's pro there as well:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/41421.html

I've just been watching a bit of Mason Crane bowling for the England U19's. I noticed that he doesn't extend his front arm at all. I know that's something you were worried about Dave, but Crane bowls at a high standard and never reaches out with the front arm. Ideally, you would do that. But it shows that you can still bowl very well without it.
 
I've watched this bloke's bowling a few times and I've always been very impressed by how much action he gets on the ball:



His arm is bent a bit, but the thing that stands out more than anything is how round arm he is. This has to be the main reason he gets big turn. Of course, you always have to be careful because you don't know what ball he is using. Could well be that he is using a ball with a very prominent seam and he simply edits the footage to show those that hit the seam and turned big.
 
Cleanprophet said:
I've watched this bloke's bowling a few times and I've always been very impressed by how much action he gets on the ball:



His arm is bent a bit, but the thing that stands out more than anything is how round arm he is. This has to be the main reason he gets big turn. Of course, you always have to be careful because you don't know what ball he is using. Could well be that he is using a ball with a very prominent seam and he simply edits the footage to show those that hit the seam and turned big.
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Lovely action. His diagonal approach and rhythm leading up to the crease is very warne-esque....not to mention the 10 o clock arm!
 
Cleanprophet said:
Yeah, he's at the same club as me. That's our club's pro there as well:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/41421.html

I've just been watching a bit of Mason Crane bowling for the England U19's. I noticed that he doesn't extend his front arm at all. I know that's something you were worried about Dave, but Crane bowls at a high standard and never reaches out with the front arm. Ideally, you would do that. But it shows that you can still bowl very well without it.
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You saying that just been watching Ind v Aus Mickey mouse cricket and one of the Indian seamers - Bumrah or someone, doesn't get his leading arm anywhere near as high as his shoulder - looks dead weird.
 
I think there needs to be more emphasis on letting people do what feels natural to them instead of teaching them to be clones. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be sticking to the basics or using the "correct" technique here (at least trying to learn the correct technique), I just feel as if some things shouldn't be changed, especially if it brings great success to the individual. We've almost gotten to the stage where we carry a defeatist attitude to anything out of the ordinary, the amount of ignorant theories that can be disproved is astonishing. People say stuff like "you can't get good rotation on the ball without a pivot" or "you can't bowl an out swinger with front-on action" when it's blatantly wrong. Having a high leading arm might assist in the desired action but it's not the sole reason why the ball travels down the pitch. Some could say that Bumrah's forfeiting potential pace by bowling in such a fashion, and whilst he might be able to squeeze out that extra juice should a coach be trying to change something that might be already set in place?

Every bit of information should be taken with a grain of salt, just because I watched a Richie Benaud masterclass it doesn't mean I should grip/ deliver the ball how he did on the basis that it brought him success.
 
TheRoadWarrior said:
I think there needs to be more emphasis on letting people do what feels natural to them instead of teaching them to be clones. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be sticking to the basics or using the "correct" technique here (at least trying to learn the correct technique), I just feel as if some things shouldn't be changed, especially if it brings great success to the individual. We've almost gotten to the stage where we carry a defeatist attitude to anything out of the ordinary, the amount of ignorant theories that can be disproved is astonishing. People say stuff like "you can't get good rotation on the ball without a pivot" or "you can't bowl an out swinger with front-on action" when it's blatantly wrong. Having a high leading arm might assist in the desired action but it's not the sole reason why the ball travels down the pitch. Some could say that Bumrah's forfeiting potential pace by bowling in such a fashion, and whilst he might be able to squeeze out that extra juice should a coach be trying to change something that might be already set in place?

Every bit of information should be taken with a grain of salt, just because I watched a Richie Benaud masterclass it doesn't mean I should grip/ deliver the ball how he did on the basis that it brought him success.
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Yeah I'm with you on this to some extent and Bumrah is an example of an unorthodox action, but I'd rather try and get my arm reaching high, long and strong in an orthodox manner - in case it is part of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm still looking for that will enable me to bowl better/more accurately. By the way welcome to the threads.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah I'm with you on this to some extent and Bumrah is an example of an unorthodox action, but I'd rather try and get my arm reaching high, long and strong in an orthodox manner - in case it is part of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm still looking for that will enable me to bowl better/more accurately. By the way welcome to the threads.
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For sure, if the ball is coming out nicely and relatively accurately, then there's no need to change anything. Tinker with the action maybe, but just keep it going as it is.

If you're not getting the desired effect, then of course you start looking at making some changes. I think that's what a few of us on here have done. I never really looked at my action in any depth at all until I started having some issues.

One thing that happens a lot in England and with the ECB is all actions being messed with to ensure they are all "text book". In places like Pakistan and India, they don't worry about that at all. All that matters is what happens once the ball leaves the hand. There's a lot to be said for that. Of course, the issue is that some players may develop an action that is so hard wired that if they do have problems at age 19 or 20, they can't fix them.

Incidently, I had a positive spell of bowling at the nets yesterday. I decided to bowl to a different area to see if I get consistent turn from a different surface and I did. So, I think some of the indifferent spin I was getting was largely down to the poor landing area I was bowling to. I filmed my action from various angles, including close up at the release point and it all looked pretty good. I went back to that technique that both GoldenArm and myself tried a month or so ago (using the thumb on the ball to force the hand/wrist into the correct release position) and it was working well in conjuction with the more recent change I made of getting the bowling arm swinging down on a line much closer to the body. That front arm is still pushing out towards leg (I have to consciously focus on getting it pushing more to the line of off-stump or just outside off-stump), but I'm not going to worry about that. I'll just keep on with that slightly different bowling arm movement and the thumb on the ball (it's worth pointing out that the thumb on the ball is something that should only be done for those who are having trouble keeping their hand/wrist in the legspinning position because the thumb always comes off the ball before the release for me - the thumb on the ball just prevents my wrist from opening too early with the ball slipping out).
 
"That front arm is still pushing out towards leg (I have to consciously focus on getting it pushing more to the line of off-stump or just outside off-stump), but I'm not going to worry about that. I'll just keep on with that slightly different bowling arm movement."

Can you please explain bit more as I also feel my front arm is not straight and pulling me in action as it should be? I still can bowl and doing it but in practice always trying to improve it as I feel it will give better result with regard to balance. So you recommend not to worry about it and let things go naturally? Can you share link to your recent action?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
hemant said:
"That front arm is still pushing out towards leg (I have to consciously focus on getting it pushing more to the line of off-stump or just outside off-stump), but I'm not going to worry about that. I'll just keep on with that slightly different bowling arm movement."

Can you please explain bit more as I also feel my front arm is not straight and pulling me in action as it should be? I still can bowl and doing it but in practice always trying to improve it as I feel it will give better result with regard to balance. So you recommend not to worry about it and let things go naturally? Can you share link to your recent action?
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It's mainly about accuracy in terms of line, but it can effect the balance as well. I've seen a number of pro legspinners (Bishoo is a very good example) who's front arm aims towards legside. So, you can still bowl quite accurately and spin the ball nicely with that front arm slighly off line. But I think it is best, if possible, to have that front arm aim towards a line just outside offstump. Here's an example of my bowling from a few weeks ago where I am getting that front arm direction much better:



This is from about a month earlier and it shows the movement of my front arm that has been the normal movement for the last few years:



That front arm movement in the second video is my instinctive movement and it is something I am trying to change to something more like the first video. I think it is quite likely that the arm pointing to the legside will cause me to lean a little bit more to the left.

For me, I am working on fixing a problem I've had with the hand position, so I am just focusing on that for now and not worrying about the front arm. At some point in the near future, I will put more focus on getting the front arm direction fixed.
 
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