Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[MoMole]

What video you watching Mo and what is it you're trying to do... e.g. what's your definition of a 'Slider'?

Not really sure. I thought the slider went straight on. I can't find the vid now but it was a slow mo of Shane Warne's and it had definite side spin on it but went straight on. I'm open to learn though if you have a different view?

Also do you think sliders are going to be as useful if club level wickets don't turn much anyway?

 

[MoMole]

What video you watching Mo and what is it you're trying to do... e.g. what's your definition of a 'Slider'?

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Ah right, the video is of a "real delivery" and it's actual name is the 'Orthodox back-spinner' probably the most difficult delivery on the planet. As far as I can make out Warne was no master of it and I don't think he'd have claimed to be. There's a couple of SKY videos if they're still around where Warne dismisses his 'Sliders' as being either complete BS or simply Leg-Breaks that have gone wrong and skidded on the smooth part of the ball and the commentators not knowing a Leg Break from a Kangaroo would just say 'Ah there's the slider'. If you watch a lot of cricket they never refer to balls as being sliders these days especially UK commentators who worked with Warne once he retired. As far as I'm aware there's never ever been a description written up in any book on bowling describing a 'Slider'. One or two proper books describe the Orthodox back-spinner which Jenner I think referred to as a Slider along with Warne to give the impression he had 7 deliveries. Anyway down to practicalities... I'd just learn the Big Leg-Break if I was you - getting the ball to come out of the had spinning at 90 degrees. That delivery because of the seam presentation in my experience skids on 10% of the time if you get it wrong. If you want to master a delivery and maybe earn the right to perhaps claim it as a sub-delivery as such and call it a 'Slider' do what Jeeten Patel seems to do with his side-spun orthodox spin. He looks as though he's able to release the ball purposely so that it lands on the smooth side. Do that with a side spun big leg break mate consistently and I reckon you could claim to have a Slider!

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Off to nets - be back in a few hours.

 

[MoMole]

Ah right, the video is of a "real delivery" and it's actual name is the 'Orthodox back-spinner' probably the most difficult delivery on the planet. As far as I can make out Warne was no master of it and I don't think he'd have claimed to be. There's a couple of SKY videos if they're still around where Warne dismisses his 'Sliders' as being either complete BS or simply Leg-Breaks that have gone wrong and skidded on the smooth part of the ball and the commentators not knowing a Leg Break from a Kangaroo would just say 'Ah there's the slider'. If you watch a lot of cricket they never refer to balls as being sliders these days especially UK commentators who worked with Warne once he retired. As far as I'm aware there's never ever been a description written up in any book on bowling describing a 'Slider'. One or two proper books describe the Orthodox back-spinner which Jenner I think referred to as a Slider along with Warne to give the impression he had 7 deliveries. Anyway down to practicalities... I'd just learn the Big Leg-Break if I was you - getting the ball to come out of the had spinning at 90 degrees. That delivery because of the seam presentation in my experience skids on 10% of the time if you get it wrong. If you want to master a delivery and maybe earn the right to perhaps claim it as a sub-delivery as such and call it a 'Slider' do what Jeeten Patel seems to do with his side-spun orthodox spin. He looks as though he's able to release the ball purposely so that it lands on the smooth side. Do that with a side spun big leg break mate consistently and I reckon you could claim to have a Slider!

I'm so glad you said that. I've been arguing with a mate forever that some of Warne's variations were either made up by him or mislabelled by commentators. I've been watching so many clips where he is literally bowling exactly the same ball but it stays straight and commentary call it the slider despite there being nothing different about how its bowled.
I always thought that was just part of Warne's pageantry and mind games where he would claim to have invented another mystery variation to spook opposition batsmen. When you really watch Warne's spells he doesn't even bowl googlies that often. It's mostly just variations on flight and speed.
I guess I call it a slider because that's what I've always heard it being called. But what I really want is a ball that stays straight and keeps low. Because I get a lot of bounce, batsmen always start to get on the back foot early and I want something to either trap them or just make them think twice about whether to get forward or back.
I have actually been working on a delivery that lands shiny side down and has some pretty gnarly drift into the batsman. But even when it lands on the shiny side it still turns and bounces sharply. It's nowhere near match ready but I'll try get some footage when it finally stops raining in London. Right now I'm just calling it the UFO. It has a completely horizontal seam which rotates anti clockwise and is released with the top of the fingers. Ever tried anything like this?
Appreciate your response Dave and have fun in the nets!

 

[Leggy88]

I'm so glad you said that. I've been arguing with a mate forever that some of Warne's variations were either made up by him or mislabelled by commentators. I've been watching so many clips where he is literally bowling exactly the same ball but it stays straight and commentary call it the slider despite there being nothing different about how its bowled.
I always thought that was just part of Warne's pageantry and mind games where he would claim to have invented another mystery variation to spook opposition batsmen. When you really watch Warne's spells he doesn't even bowl googlies that often. It's mostly just variations on flight and speed.
I guess I call it a slider because that's what I've always heard it being called. But what I really want is a ball that stays straight and keeps low. Because I get a lot of bounce, batsmen always start to get on the back foot early and I want something to either trap them or just make them think twice about whether to get forward or back.
I have actually been working on a delivery that lands shiny side down and has some pretty gnarly drift into the batsman. But even when it lands on the shiny side it still turns and bounces sharply. It's nowhere near match ready but I'll try get some footage when it finally stops raining in London. Right now I'm just calling it the UFO. It has a completely horizontal seam which rotates anti clockwise and is released with the top of the fingers. Ever tried anything like this?
Appreciate your response Dave and have fun in the nets!

That UFO ball sounds really interesting. I'd love to see it when you can. I agree that most of Warne's 'sliders' are just leg breaks which go straight on.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

I'm so glad you said that. I've been arguing with a mate forever that some of Warne's variations were either made up by him or mislabelled by commentators. I've been watching so many clips where he is literally bowling exactly the same ball but it stays straight and commentary call it the slider despite there being nothing different about how its bowled.
I always thought that was just part of Warne's pageantry and mind games where he would claim to have invented another mystery variation to spook opposition batsmen. When you really watch Warne's spells he doesn't even bowl googlies that often. It's mostly just variations on flight and speed.
I guess I call it a slider because that's what I've always heard it being called. But what I really want is a ball that stays straight and keeps low. Because I get a lot of bounce, batsmen always start to get on the back foot early and I want something to either trap them or just make them think twice about whether to get forward or back.
I have actually been working on a delivery that lands shiny side down and has some pretty gnarly drift into the batsman. But even when it lands on the shiny side it still turns and bounces sharply. It's nowhere near match ready but I'll try get some footage when it finally stops raining in London. Right now I'm just calling it the UFO. It has a completely horizontal seam which rotates anti clockwise and is released with the top of the fingers. Ever tried anything like this?
Appreciate your response Dave and have fun in the nets!

I like "The UFO"! Yeah I'll try and dig out the video where Warne and some others laugh about the mind games he used to play. As you say he hardly ever bowled much more than than variations of Leg-Breaks. He knackered his shoulder bowling Flippers, so they disappeared before the last few years of his career if not sooner and the Wrong un was a rare variation. I've tried all sorts over the years, but I can't get my head around your description, I've tried a UFO spinning style Flipper, but didn't stick at it. I just bowl Leg Breaks and scrambled seam back-spinning flippers. My changed up is a Leg Break with the intention of more over-spin - attempting a top-spinner, but more often than not it turns more than my regular Leg-Break. Just looked for the video - here it is have a watch, they all laugh at the idea that Warne had 30 variations as he inferred. I'm down the road from you then in Essex (Basildon).

 

[MoMole]

I like "The UFO"! Yeah I'll try and dig out the video where Warne and some others laugh about the mind games he used to play. As you say he hardly ever bowled much more than than variations of Leg-Breaks. He knackered his shoulder bowling Flippers, so they disappeared before the last few years of his career if not sooner and the Wrong un was a rare variation. I've tried all sorts over the years, but I can't get my head around your description, I've tried a UFO spinning style Flipper, but didn't stick at it. I just bowl Leg Breaks and scrambled seam back-spinning flippers. My changed up is a Leg Break with the intention of more over-spin - attempting a top-spinner, but more often than not it turns more than my regular Leg-Break. Just looked for the video - here it is have a watch, they all laugh at the idea that Warne had 30 variations as he inferred. I'm down the road from you then in Essex (Basildon).

What a great video! Warne's masterclasses were always the best.
Oh nice, I'm from Bexley. We should have a leg spin meet one day. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two. I'm still waiting for the terrible weather to pass to get some proper practice in again.

One thing I've been trying to figure out is what to do when batsmen start charging down the wicket. It's the one thing I really struggle with. Especially when they've got good footwork and can easily get to the pitch of the ball. It really throws my line and I'm not sure how to react. Any advice?

 

[Leggy88]

What a great video! Warne's masterclasses were always the best.
Oh nice, I'm from Bexley. We should have a leg spin meet one day. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two. I'm still waiting for the terrible weather to pass to get some proper practice in again.

One thing I've been trying to figure out is what to do when batsmen start charging down the wicket. It's the one thing I really struggle with. Especially when they've got good footwork and can easily get to the pitch of the ball. It really throws my line and I'm not sure how to react. Any advice?

I struggle with that too, especially if they're smart enough to use it to get you to bowl shorter and then they go back and cut and pull. However, I have had some success against some adult first grade players who I come up against in my league, and they always have great footwork. What I usually do is spin a topspinner, or slight legbreak, as hard as I can, on the shorter side of a good length, so around 1.5-1.75 times a bat width from the batsman's stance. On the day, I choose whether to deliver the ball faster or slower, generally with the faster one if they come down they won't make it to the pitch, and if it turns they will get stumped, and if it doesn't they hopefully sky it or at least defend it if they're smart (which they usually are). The slower one is more likely to tempt them to come out again though, and get them stumped or knicking off to 1st slip or even slicing it to short third, due to the extra loop and dip a slow one provides.

Right now if you came up against a batsman of this type, what would you do you reckon?

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

What a great video! Warne's masterclasses were always the best.
Oh nice, I'm from Bexley. We should have a leg spin meet one day. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two. I'm still waiting for the terrible weather to pass to get some proper practice in again.

One thing I've been trying to figure out is what to do when batsmen start charging down the wicket. It's the one thing I really struggle with. Especially when they've got good footwork and can easily get to the pitch of the ball. It really throws my line and I'm not sure how to react. Any advice?

That's how I've been getting all my wickets in the nets over the last 4 weeks. I practice with our 3rd and 4th XI teams and the 3rd XI has some blokes that frequently play in the 2nd XI so I try and bowl at them as I always tend to have to bowl at better middle order players in games. I think that because it is just a practice scenario they've been looking to come down the wicket at me and as far as I'm concerned that's fine as I feel like they've walked into my trap. My stock ball is meant to be a ball that attacks and targets the stumps so I'm aiming to pitch it just outside of leg so that it comes in to the stumps - nice and full, varying the speed and mixing with faster Flippers. In the nets that's worked fine and they've been cautious and not been able to get easy runs as such. But they get the measure of that approach and the advance down the wicket. That's where I then bowl with far more over-spin aiming to bowl Top-Spinners targeting middle and leg. (1) It doesn't turn as much and (2) It dips; the combination of both tends then to be their un-doing in theory, with a good wicket-keeper that'd result in a stumping as they'd be right out of their ground. I reckon a Top Spinner is one of our better variations and it's relatively easy to develop. It has another aspect to it in that it is such a change up from from your Leg-Break that most batters actually perceive it as being a Wrong Un and you just let them believe that and it gets in their heads that you can get it to go the other way. Pretty much similar to Leggy88 suggestions.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

I struggle with that too, especially if they're smart enough to use it to get you to bowl shorter and then they go back and cut and pull. However, I have had some success against some adult first grade players who I come up against in my league, and they always have great footwork. What I usually do is spin a topspinner, or slight legbreak, as hard as I can, on the shorter side of a good length, so around 1.5-1.75 times a bat width from the batsman's stance. On the day, I choose whether to deliver the ball faster or slower, generally with the faster one if they come down they won't make it to the pitch, and if it turns they will get stumped, and if it doesn't they hopefully sky it or at least defend it if they're smart (which they usually are). The slower one is more likely to tempt them to come out again though, and get them stumped or knicking off to 1st slip or even slicing it to short third, due to the extra loop and dip a slow one provides.

Right now if you came up against a batsman of this type, what would you do you reckon?

The other thing you can do if you have a regular wicket keeper and he takes it seriously and your mates with him, is to discuss these scenarios and have it as one of your options to bowl a big wide down the leg-side. My Keepers are poor as a rule and there's no chance that they'd be this serious and tactical about it.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

MoMole Bexley - yeah that's a definite possibility later in the summer. I'm a lecturer so the school holidays I have loads of time off. Maybe even over Easter if as you say the weather sorts itself out a bit - terrible at the moment - cold and wet.

 

[Leggy88]

The other thing you can do if you have a regular wicket keeper and he takes it seriously and your mates with him, is to discuss these scenarios and have it as one of your options to bowl a big wide down the leg-side. My Keepers are poor as a rule and there's no chance that they'd be this serious and tactical about it.

Yeah, I've been lucky to have many good wicket keepers over the years who help me work the batsman out and take wickets. They are invaluable

 

[MoMole]

MoMole Bexley - yeah that's a definite possibility later in the summer. I'm a lecturer so the school holidays I have loads of time off. Maybe even over Easter if as you say the weather sorts itself out a bit - terrible at the moment - cold and wet.

I will definitely take you up on your offer this summer. I don't hold out much hope for the weather over April. It's looking wet and miserable as usual. Would be fantastic if we could get a few leggies together and share some insights. I literally don't know a single other leg spinner. Everyone is on offie nowadays!

 

[MoMole]

That's how I've been getting all my wickets in the nets over the last 4 weeks. I practice with our 3rd and 4th XI teams and the 3rd XI has some blokes that frequently play in the 2nd XI so I try and bowl at them as I always tend to have to bowl at better middle order players in games. I think that because it is just a practice scenario they've been looking to come down the wicket at me and as far as I'm concerned that's fine as I feel like they've walked into my trap. My stock ball is meant to be a ball that attacks and targets the stumps so I'm aiming to pitch it just outside of leg so that it comes in to the stumps - nice and full, varying the speed and mixing with faster Flippers. In the nets that's worked fine and they've been cautious and not been able to get easy runs as such. But they get the measure of that approach and the advance down the wicket. That's where I then bowl with far more over-spin aiming to bowl Top-Spinners targeting middle and leg. (1) It doesn't turn as much and (2) It dips; the combination of both tends then to be their un-doing in theory, with a good wicket-keeper that'd result in a stumping as they'd be right out of their ground. I reckon a Top Spinner is one of our better variations and it's relatively easy to develop. It has another aspect to it in that it is such a change up from from your Leg-Break that most batters actually perceive it as being a Wrong Un and you just let them believe that and it gets in their heads that you can get it to go the other way. Pretty much similar to Leggy88 suggestions.

So my approach when a batsman charges depends on the batsman:

Regular club hero:
He's probably gonna charge out of instinct and not thought. Soon as he sees the ball flight up he's out of his crease. With these batsmen, usually floating it across them and into their pads is enough to get them to lose track of the ball and beat them between bat and pad for what should be an easy stumping.

A good batsman:
This is a lot harder because they're probably much better at tracking the ball and playing off their pads. Beating them between bat and pad will become more of a game of probability rather than skill as in if they try it enough they'll eventually mistime or mishit. Just depends how many runs you'll go for in the interum.

A technically proficient batsmen:
Will only charge when they know you've over pitched or are straying down leg. However, they also know that by charging they can pressure you and throw off your line and length so you end up bowling wide, full tosses, or half trackers. They also won't give as much prewarning so it's a lot harder to adjust mid release.

What to do:
One thing for certain is I don't try and beat them on the off side. It's unlikely a good batsmen will miss a ball on the off unless it rips massively and then your keepers unlikely to be able to gather the ball and stump them before they get back.
If they're standing on their stumps there is a chance to stump them around their legs but again your keeper has to know that's what you're going for so he can place himself down the leg side as soon as the batsman leaves his crease.
If he stands on leg or outside leg stump it's going to be difficult to bowl wide enough around him to beat him and still close enough for your keeper to gather and stump him.

I think Dave's absolutely right in that the actual skill, reaction speed, and athleticism of your keeper plays a huge part. And, let's face it, most low level club keepers aren't speciality keepers and if they are, they're probably an older chap carrying a few extra lbs so they're unlikely to pull off any MS Dhoni like stumpings.

However, I think game and nets are very different and batsmen are a lot more confident in charging during nets than in a game. The threat of being stumped if they make a mistake may prove too risky for them to try it.
I think, more than likely, you'll be relying on your fielders out in the deep to take a catch if a good batsman charges and gets hold of you.

I don't have any experience with the topspinner and how it behaves so I can't really say. What do you think Dave? Would you still float up the topspinner and get the dip or would you fire it in and bowl it flatter? Also are you able to bowl the topspinner as a response to the charge or do you have to premeditatedly prepare your grip etc to bowl the top spinner?

I think mindset is really important as well as a charging batsman can really put pressure on you and force mistakes on your end. Having the confidence to stick to a plan and make minor adjustments is really important in taking on a confident skilled batsman who isn't afraid to leave his crease.

 

[MoMole]

That's how I've been getting all my wickets in the nets over the last 4 weeks. I practice with our 3rd and 4th XI teams and the 3rd XI has some blokes that frequently play in the 2nd XI so I try and bowl at them as I always tend to have to bowl at better middle order players in games. I think that because it is just a practice scenario they've been looking to come down the wicket at me and as far as I'm concerned that's fine as I feel like they've walked into my trap. My stock ball is meant to be a ball that attacks and targets the stumps so I'm aiming to pitch it just outside of leg so that it comes in to the stumps - nice and full, varying the speed and mixing with faster Flippers. In the nets that's worked fine and they've been cautious and not been able to get easy runs as such. But they get the measure of that approach and the advance down the wicket. That's where I then bowl with far more over-spin aiming to bowl Top-Spinners targeting middle and leg. (1) It doesn't turn as much and (2) It dips; the combination of both tends then to be their un-doing in theory, with a good wicket-keeper that'd result in a stumping as they'd be right out of their ground. I reckon a Top Spinner is one of our better variations and it's relatively easy to develop. It has another aspect to it in that it is such a change up from from your Leg-Break that most batters actually perceive it as being a Wrong Un and you just let them believe that and it gets in their heads that you can get it to go the other way. Pretty much similar to Leggy88 suggestions.

In terms of the flipper Dave, are you bowling like Warne and Phil Potts advise which is clicking the fingers to create backspin or do you have your own method? I've never had much luck with the clicking style and gave up on it quite quickly. But having a backspinner is really useful so I'd love to develop one.

 

[Leggy88]

I will definitely take you up on your offer this summer. I don't hold out much hope for the weather over April. It's looking wet and miserable as usual. Would be fantastic if we could get a few leggies together and share some insights. I literally don't know a single other leg spinner. Everyone is on offie nowadays!

In my league it's the exact opposite. Just leggies, 1 or 2 offies.

 

[MoMole]

In my league it's the exact opposite. Just leggies, 1 or 2 offies.

Really?
Tbf calling most of the offies I meet actual spinners may be a bit of a stretch. Most of them are just batsmen who get bored during nets or guys too chubby to bowl fast anymore so they just turn their arms over and bowl a bit of offspin. I havent really met an offie that can really turn it.
I'm guessing in Australia there's a whole different culture in relation to spin and leg spin especially because of Warne?
Does that mean you have actual coaches that know about leg spin?

 

[Leggy88]

I don't have any experience with the topspinner and how it behaves so I can't really say. What do you think Dave? Would you still float up the topspinner and get the dip or would you fire it in and bowl it flatter? Also are you able to bowl the topspinner as a response to the charge or do you have to premeditatedly prepare your grip etc to bowl the top spinner?

In my experience it is too hard to change from, say, a leg spinner to a topspinner after you've started your delivery stride. More often than not the accuracy or the aim of the delivery will be off as your mind is in two places. That is why you need to premeditate and figure out what they are trying to do before you bowl the ball.

 

[Leggy88]

Really?
Tbf calling most of the offies I meet actual spinners may be a bit of a stretch. Most of them are just batsmen who get bored during nets or guys too chubby to bowl fast anymore so they just turn their arms over and bowl a bit of offspin. I havent really met an offie that can really turn it.
I'm guessing in Australia there's a whole different culture in relation to spin and leg spin especially because of Warne?
Does that mean you have actual coaches that know about leg spin?

Yeah in Australia there is an encouraging culture when it comes to spin due to Warne. Although in saying that, I have not found any leg spin coaches or anyone that knows more than the basics of legspin. That's why I've come to this forum, there is some really good knowledge throughout this whole discussion for people that don't have coaches and are self-taught like me.

The 1 or 2 proper offies in my league are actually pretty good, they would get a fair few revolutions and they spin it nearly as much as leggies. However, you do get the odd batsman that tries a couple offies when his team is not bowling so well.