Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

There will always be an opener whose job is to provide a stable presence at the top of the order. Klinger's runs simply were not that slow. You are finding anything to downplay the guy. It lacks credibility.

Is you assessment of Jewell's superiority based on the last Shield season or the fact that Klinger is in the Australia A side? Well it couldn't be either of those.

There isn't much recent evidence to support the claim. I am interested to see how you justify the call.

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I am bored, this test is boring as bat ****, it is time to substantiate the claims (just so there is no doubt):

The 26-year-old [Klinger], who was once Michael Clarke and Mitchell Johnson's captain in Australia's Under 19 side, has three contributions in the past seven weeks which are vying for the title of his best innings ever. * Source 1

...

Brilliant hundreds to skipper Cameron White and opener Michael Klinger have led Victoria to a record-breaking eight-wicket Ford Ranger One Day Cup win over New South Wales at Canberra's Manuka Oval.

Chasing the imposing target of 296 from their 50 overs, the Bushrangers got home with 17 balls to spare to keep their chances of making the final alive as White made his maiden one-day ton for his state and Klinger brought up his third.

The pair shared an unbroken 202-run stand for the third wicket from only 170 balls after coming together at 2-94, White crashing nine fours and five sixes as he made an unbeaten 126 from 100 deliveries and Klinger belting 16 fours en route to 123 not out from 134 balls (S.R. 92). * Source 2 Scorecard

Victoria v Queensland 26/11/2006http://www.cricinfo.com/australia/engine/match/251640.html *Source 3

Total: 227
Top Score: M Klinger run out (Hopes) 79 159 124 3 1 63.70
Second: RJ Quiney lbw b Hopes 39 67 57 2 0 68.42
Third: AB McDonald c †Hartley b Bichel 31 41 39 2 0 79.48

The rate is slow but in the context of the innings it is basically on par, especially given that he was facing the new ball and had to hold up one end.

Victoria vs NSW, 20/12/2006

Total: 1/183 chasing 180
Top Score: M Klinger not out 76 142 118 5 2 64.40
Second: J Moss b O'Brien 59 105 77 8 0 76.62
Third: BJ Hodge not out 34 36 35 4 1 97.1 * Source 4

Probably a little slow. Moss hardly dashed (and he was supposed to be the aggressive player). Hodge cleaned up the match when it was won.

Victoria vs SA, 31/01.2007

Total: 3/242 chasing 239

Top score: BJ Hodge* not out 115 115 100 11 1 115.00

M Klinger c & b Gillespie 35 48 46 3 1 76.08
J Moss (fellow opener) c Cleary b Adcock 45 97 64 5 0 70.31 * Source 5

Obviously Hodge dominated. Klinger and Moss were virtually the same. Klinger was a little faster and Moss made a few more.

QLD vs Victoria, Final

Total: 9/253 chasing 275

Top score: AB McDonald not out 65 75 64 6 0 101.56
Second: DJ Hussey c Maher b Nye 62 96 72 0 4 86.11

Top three:
M Klinger c †Hartley b Noffke 23 42 35 2 1 65.71
J Moss c †Hartley b Bichel 26 65 41 2 0 63.41
RJ Quiney c †Hartley b Simpson 26 60 48 2 0 54.16 * Source 5

Klinger was 'slow' again, yet he was harldy on his own. He was marginally quicker than his fellow opener and the # 3. What do you take from that? Either the QLD opener was on fire or the pitch was doing something. Hussey and Ronald accelerate the scoring siginificanty but that is about 100 bals later.

That is just a snap shot of the season. It is admittedly incomplete yet I think it gives a farily good indication of where things were at. There are other scores of between 20 and 40 and obviousy a few failures. I don't thik that you can say that I have unfairly left them out as no other Victorian made more runs for the year. He was no slower than his fellow opener who was supposed to be a dasher. Can you please explain why Klinger gets the blame for Victoria not passing 300?

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Moss was also gone when Victoria finally passed 300 the next year, yet that same Victorian side had played the season and hadnt been able to do it, untill Klinger was out of the team

As for Jewell and Klinger, I dont think there was any real contest there, seeing as we are comparing when they both played for Victoria

Klinger averaged just 26 in first class cricket for Victoria, his best season was averaging 37, thats less than Jewells career average of 38.

As for Klinger playing for Australia A, yeah hows that gone so far? But of course Jewell isnt there, neither is Duss or Hodgey, is Klinger better than them? No, probably something to do with the youth policy in selecting that side

Jewells strike rate is 48, Klingers 42, but with Jewells average far superior, it was a pretty obvious choice as to who any sane person would want to keep. Oh and you're right, it would be unfair to judge them on last season, Jewell only averaged 43 and led his side to a Shield title, how did SA do with Klinger leading the way?

Fact was in first class cricket he was a joke and we were never going to dominate with Klinger leading a one day side and he hasnt exactly improved SA even despite making more runs than his entire career just about

See the trouble with Klinger in a one day side, is he might do his job on those couple of rare occassions you found, also puts alot more pressure on the other batsmen, but when he gets a start and doesnt go on with it, he ****s the side completely as he has wasted half an innings to make 40

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

If I may, whilst both batsmen have shown class on occasions, unfortunately neither has provided the kind of runs in bulk that are going to seriously stake any claims on higher honours.

Klinger showed (that dreaded word) "potential" for far too long without nailing it. I take your point, Bruno, that the VCA have shuffled their promising youngsters around too much in the past but in the end, over quite a long period, Klinger's scoring was not prolific enough and they grew impatient. They thought if they tried enough of these kids, one or two would shine through but you're right, what they should have been doing is having faith rather than succumbing to their urgent quest to seek the next big thing.

Yes, NSW have been successful in producing young talent, and they get credit for that. It cannot be ignored however, that players from that state are selected in national teams & squads with far less impressive resumes than similar players from other "unfashionable" states. One thing breeds another, and it's easy to give kids exposure at that level when you have so many gaps in the team (due to the fact that about 8 of their best XI will be on national duty most of the season!). Don't forget, they've had plenty of ordinary cricketers hanging round in the NSW team for years at a time as well.

By the way, can we squeeze Reiffel, Fleming & Elliott in as having established themselves in the baggy green within these past 2 decades!?!

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Elliott - no (got an initial run after being injured but then fell off the face of the earth)

Fleming - no (not Fleimings fault. About a series after he saved us from loosing to NZ - NZ worked out that you don't need to score off McGrath nd that he won't get you out if you don't play - he was dropped as soon as Brett Lee became fashionable. You hardly do that to an established player).

Reiffel - yes (don't really remember him being dropped and he did perform.)

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

SR in shield cricket is irrelevant. Klinger's record will now improve because he can actually play matches.

eddie you are cluthcing at straws. Just give it up. You arn't giving up that much anyway because I was never arguing at Klinger was a champion, I just argued that he sould have been given more of an opportunity. My intuition tells me that he would have performed but that means nothing. It is clear that Klinger (like Elliott at Australian level) is not one of the boys and had thus been made the scape in all sorts of situations to justify non-selection. Do I care about the opinion of state selectors who can't get players selected in the national team? No, if they had any sort of success getting young Victorians selected their view would mean something.

You also know very well what I was alluding to by bringing up Klinger's inclusion in the 'A' side. You chose to ignore it which is your problem. Australia A selection means that you are being assessed as a potential Australian representative. The selectors will not waste the position with someone they don't think has a chance given performance(so Klinger may have a problem here given that he failed...in one game).

Hussey doesn't need to prove himself and neither does Hodge. You know that, just as I know that. Hodge was born too early (or too late I suppose). Hussey hasn't been that good in Shield cricket when compared to Love, Katich, M Hussey, Elliott, Hodge and North.


Edit: there are two other reasons for increased one day scores in ODDs. Firstly, preparation of pitches has changed and they are flatter than ever before. Secondly, 2020 has undoubtedly increased OneDay scoring rates. What Victoria was doing in One Day cricket in 06/07 was no different to any other state.

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

No, you need to give up, Klinger got more than enough chances and never showed anything that would make Victoria desperate to keep him and would have been happy for him to leave

But no SR isnt important, but you cant have too many slow scoring players if you want to win games, making 250 in a day wont get you far

Klingers record may improve, doubt he could repeat last season though, but playing 5 games a year at the Adelaide Oval with no pressure on having to push for wins suits him perfectly

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

More food for thought. The important thing to remember when reading this article is to keep it in context. Berry is describing an environment where selctors frequently contradict themselves and do not show faith in Victorian development programs. This is a terrible environment for young players to be brought up in. Berry is not saying that any of these players is going to be the next star or that they would necessarily displace Wade from the Shield side in the next game. The issue is the process followed that ends up in the selection of Wade (or anyone else who is keeping for Victoria). I supposed you have to have account of Berry's probable bias against Wade, who from all reports, is much more a batsman than a keeper.

We are talkng about the long term future of Cricket in both the State and the country. Undercutting your own development programs by bringing non-Victorians (with credentials the equal of the players already here) into one of the very few positions in a state squad is a really good way of deterring potential players.

Victorian selectors have taken an approach to the side that is not questioned anywhere near enough by people (probably because noone gives a ****). The longer the morons who are on SEN, and who call SEN, go on air asking why Rogers (who is not a Victoriam, and whose seclection would not be the selection of a Victorian) can get a baggy green, the longer Victoria will have few Australian representatives.

Please no-one mention John Holland in this thread or I will be sick. In the last two years, spin in this country has been a "right time, right place" thing and getting a young spinner selected with a record (or lack of one) like Holland has is in no way indicative of good selection policies. Good luck to Holland (and I genuinely hope he succeeds) but the reality is that he should not be playing for Austalia.

Anyway, here is the article:

Why can't the Bushrangers keep their glovemen?
Darren Berry
November 1, 2009

VICTORIA has four very talented young wicketkeepers. In fact, it has more than that, but the four I'm referring to are, sadly, plying their trade interstate.

It is very disappointing, and at the same time very exciting, that former Carlton gloveman Tim Ludeman, who hails from a little country town just out of Warrnambool, made his first-class debut on Friday for South Australia against his much-preferred choice, Victoria.

Just two years ago, Adam Crosthwaite was firmly entrenched as the state's up-and-coming gloveman, with that dangerous phrase, ''potential to play for Australia'', hanging over his head. Crosthwaite is now living in Sydney without a state contract, playing club cricket with Manly.

The cricket world can be cruel at times. He was rushed into the state one-day team when the Victorian custodian (your columnist) had a mishap with an alarm clock under the David Hookes regime. Crosthwaite made an immediate impression and the writing was on the wall from that time forward. He was the future, or so it seemed.

But at the start of this pre-season, Crosthwaite made a brave decision to pack his bags and head for greener pastures. His position in the Victorian Sheffield Shield team had been lost to former Tasmanian Matthew Wade, who had been lured across Bass Strait with the encouragement of coach Greg Shipperd.

Last summer, the Victorian selectors were doing their best to keep both glovemen happy, but in reality cruelling both men's chances of higher honours. Crosthwaite was behind the stumps in the one-day and Twenty20 competitions, which frustrated the new boy Wade, who in turn was in the driver's seat for the Sheffield Shield games.

Neither could comprehend the logic and were quietly hoping the tough decision would be made either way. It never was, so Crosthwaite made the call himself. He relinquished his chance to play with Victoria in the very lucrative Champions League and walked away from his position in the shorter versions of the game. In another bizarre twist in the wicketkeeping saga, Ludeman, who, like Crosthwaite, had been nurtured through the pathway system, albeit via the bush, is currently on debut with South Australia. This is deflating for the many Cricket Victoria pathway coaches and administrators.

The Ludeman scenario was the last straw for some of them. His half-century on Friday against Victoria would have evoked mixed emotions for many people in the Western District.

This wicketkeeping story becomes more complicated when you consider Crosthwaite's younger brother, James, is also playing cricket in Sydney. James had spent some time in Canberra, but moved to Sydney three years ago in the hope of becoming Brad Haddin's understudy. He left Victoria knowing at the time his big brother was standing in his way. His older brother is once again invading his turf; the only difference now is that James has a contract, Adam does not.

Extraordinarily, yet another quality under-age former Victorian, Peter Nevill, is also keeping wickets in Sydney grade cricket and made his debut for NSW last summer. Nevill holds a full contract with NSW and is now competing with the two Crosthwaites and incumbent Sydneysider Daniel Smith. It is galling to think all four of these young men once harboured desires to wear the Big V but due to circumstances, only Adam Crosthwaite realised that dream. Wade now has free rein as Victoria's No. 1 stumper.

The final chapter of the Victorian keeping chronicle spirals out of control with the recent recruitment of young Canberra gloveman Ryan Carters. The Victorian selectors will argue to the contrary, but they were caught with egg on their faces. Ludeman reluctantly moved to Adelaide, after being overlooked for a rookie contract and then a few days later Crosthwaite apparently surprised them when he up and left. The recruitment of Carters was seen as a necessity to provide back-up for Wade.

Perhaps the selectors should have caught their breath and realised that young Joseph Loorham, who was lured to Melbourne from Albury three years ago, was the man to be cultivated. Loorham is already a dual premiership player with Ringwood and the next best young kid with the gloves in our state.

He must be scratching his head in bewilderment. Once again we chose to look outside our own system. It appears the only way to get a game as a keeper for Victoria these days is to come from interstate.

Why can't the Bushrangers keep their glovemen? - Cricket - Sport - theage.com.au

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Quite ludicrous really.

 

[hattrick]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

The irony in that for me is that the author of that article played for Victoria. The truth is that young players get chance after change and is seen as a potential (if the state gives him enough chance) for a while. It is the players duty to himself to make use of the opportunity and not that of the Association/Board. I take my own State/Franchise as an example : The Cape Cobras can almost field another side with all the players playing at different teams in South Africa. However the problem was and still is that the players are bought by other franchises and then they perform.

The fact is that development is a double edge sword. You put thousands of dollars and Rands in players and some never make it.If the player performs at another state then the board should deal with it and look at why this is happening. It comes down to the needs of the team and sometimes you need to bring players in. Think about like this - JP Duminy and 6 other players where deemed prospects at the Cobras a few seasons ago - 2 of them moved to get a game, 1 no longer play cricket as he lost motivation and the three remaining only 2 of them has a regular place. It boils down for me to the player and he needs to take his chance. The other thing is that some of these young players get agents and then start to believe all the hype that is created.

What is sad is that this is an ex player of Victoria(I think so) and he should have taken this to relevant people at Victoria before making it public. The other thing which needs to be kept in mind by him is that money is what players need and if some else is gonna give to a chance to play then I would say 80% of them will move (as is the case of the Cape Cobras.)

It ultimately boils down whether they will make it at state/franchise level..

 

[courtjester]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

eddie you are cluthcing at straws. Just give it up. You arn't giving up that much anyway because I was never arguing at Klinger was a champion, I just argued that he sould have been given more of an opportunity. My intuition tells me that he would have performed but that means nothing. It is clear that Klinger (like Elliott at Australian level) is not one of the boys and had thus been made the scape in all sorts of situations to justify non-selection.

You can't dismiss the importance of team harmony. Not being "one of the boys" causes big problems in a team unit. It doesn't mean everyone has to be the same. But sometimes you get a real prick, or a sook, or a ****er in your team and it screws with everything.

I am not casting aspersions at Klinger here, he may be a great bloke, I dont know him. But if someone doesn't gel with teammates, regardless of how good he is, it makes it hard to select him. You see it in local cricket clubs, it's no different at the elite level.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Berry is right though. It is a real concern that the state loses so many cricketers - let alone 'keepers - to interstate. It was evident 10 or so years ago when we won nothing, had just one or two national rep's, and yet every state had one or two ex-Vic's in their more successful line-ups.
If you're investing good money (from taxpayers and/or cricket fans), have the courage of conviction to stick with the kids you've groomed. Immediate stand-out performances aren't necessarily going to happen.
We've always had our own very good 'keepers - in fact, I can't remember when we last had a bare cupboard. Something must be wrong for this exodus to be taking place. Again, I suspect Cricket Victoria will bury their heads in the sand do nothing about it.

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I wonder about Crosthwaite, its not a good thing for either of the keepers to be scared of competition, the fact remains Crosthwaite was a very one day batsman and an exceptional keeper, his first class performances never stood up, Wade is an average keeper but good first class batsman and not so good in the shorter stuff

Victoria had the perfect mix, Crossy had a sook and went to a state where he is about 5th in line and no contract

 

[a for effort]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

What is sad is that this is an ex player of Victoria(I think so) and he should have taken this to relevant people at Victoria before making it public.

Darren Berry has a pretty well-publicized distaste for the Victorian/Australian selectors, much of which stems from his own various non-selections behind less qualified keepers throughout his career. I doubt he would have thought twice about having a crack at them in the paper.

His book is actually a really good read, doesn't pull any punches.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Berry was a beautiful player to watch with the gloves. I'll always consider him one of the best Australians never to play international cricket.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Berry was a gun keeper, no doubt. Unfortunately for him, Healy was a huge part of the rejuvination of Australian cricket, and Berry missed the boat. Healy was a brilliant keeper, great team man, very handy bat. I'd rate his keeping about on par with Berry.

When Healy retired, Gilchrist came in as a once in a lifetime keeper-bat.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I wonder about Crosthwaite, its not a good thing for either of the keepers to be scared of competition, the fact remains Crosthwaite was a very one day batsman and an exceptional keeper, his first class performances never stood up, Wade is an average keeper but good first class batsman and not so good in the shorter stuff

Victoria had the perfect mix, Crossy had a sook and went to a state where he is about 5th in line and no contract

That's a good point. Why couldn't any of these guys tough it out and demand the spot? It's not like Wade's impregnable - as Haddin is in NSW. Smith's the back-up there, whilst we no longer have a definite No.2. Better being next in line than way back in the queue - you never know what might happen.
Look at Roach - he spent all that time waiting to get his chances. The lads are a little less patient nowadays.

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Remember, it is not just one sook.

It is 4 sooks.

That four people would (including Crosthwaite's younger brother - I can't remember if that makes it 5 sooks) all packed up to leave screams complete discontent with the state of play in Victoria.

 

[a for effort]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Pretty understandable given the Wade fiasco. The fact that the Victorians decided that they would go out and hunt a keeper from interstate even though Crosthwaite was doing nothing wrong and there were plenty of other well-credentialed keepers waiting in the wings (Ludeman, Crosthwaite Jnr etc), would be enough to test the loyalty of any up-and-coming keeper.

South Australia have looked elsewhere for players in recent seasons, but only after seasons of poor performances from trying out the local kids, most of whom were found wanting. Victoria have a far richer talent pool to choose from, and it doesn't seem at all logical to go the way they did re: Wade.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

That's right, I don't know why they went for a keeper from outside. Or did he elect to try his chances and earn his spot? Either way, I still think it's not quite right that the next 5 in line pack up and leave over a spot that was still not cut & dried.