Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

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Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Righto mate.

Maybe we should get Cameron White to bat at 3, maybe Hodge could be lured back.

You obviously fail to understand my point.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

FYI, you don't actually have a point (or at least an intelligent one).

Your bizarre comparison to Pietersen, along with setting up the standard 'maybe you think Hodge or White would do better' strawman really isn't going to convince anyone because it doesn't make a lick of sense.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

What you don't think England would have been better served as a team, if KP had batted at 3 during the 2006 Ashes?

KP might have been put out a bit, but the team would have benefitted.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

No I think that there is no possible way for anyone trying to conduct an honest debate to be able to use Pietersen batting at 5 as evidence that somehow supports Pontings value at 3.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

What a load of crap.

It is perfect arguement that details the value of a batsmen to a team, not necessary reflected in his average.

KP averaged 50+ during the 2006 Ashes, but it didn't hurt Australia, because most of the time he was holing out with the tail enders or coming in at 3/50.

If he went up the innings, it would have been better for the team, but not necessarily better for KP. He would have been facing the new rock and therefore would have been more likely to get knocked over cheaply, and not finishing the tour with a 50+ average.

However, he could have set the innings up.

Can you not see where I am coming from?
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

No I cannot see where you are coming from at all because it doesn't relate to Ponting in the slightest bit. Everybody here is suggesting that there are other players around who could average mid-40's batting at 3 (like Ponting). At this stage Ponting's record still makes him by far the best choice for the number 3 spot, but I honestly cannot comprehend how you could use your Pietersen argument to support anything mentioned in this thread.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Tell me has clarke ever averaged 40 for 2 years. Hell yes more like about 3 or 4. The sad thing is that most batsman would be considered to have had a good career with an average of 45 and you are all over ponting cos he's averaged a couple less than that for 2 years of his career which has lasted how long?
Ponting is the greatest asset australia has and has had since bradman no matter how you perceive he acts would you kick your best player for 60 years off the team for being a bit under the weather occasionally? I think not or you would play for a very unsuccessful side.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Whoa, steady on. Nobody is talking about kicking Ponting off the team. He's performing quite adequately enough to hold his place, even if he wasn't the captain.

I'm just pointing out that he's not scoring at a rate that makes him irreplacable. When the time does come for him to shuffle off, I'm sure we'll be able to find someone else to score in the low 40s at number 3. As such, our scoring potency will hopefully be not to severely damaged.

Contrast with Warne and McGrath, for example. If you look at their performances for the last couple of years of their careers, they are remarkably similar to their overall statistics. Because of this, naturally they were far greater losses to the side on retirement than Ponting is likely to be.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

My impression is that LtD is not getting at the statistics at all, but rather the mental side of the team.

Ponting is a huge role model, and him scoring even 30 for an hour or two after a quick wicket calms the team down and a big score is produced. If he gets out early the collapse tends to continue. It's only of late that he has had the trouble of the brain fades that make a bad number 3.

He is the model of how a number 3 should play, and I don't see any other batsman in the team of that calibre. Clarke pokes and prods at the start of his innings and it takes him till at least his 50 until you feel he is safe to go on. If Ponting gets to 30 you notice he is relaxed and you don't feel nervous watching him. He does have his problems early on but he still comes out and plays his shots and doesn't hold back.

I place a huge importance on the number 3 batsman, that more mental side is as important as anything else IMO.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

I think you are both overstating it the matter. Certainly he has a certain aura about him which helps the team, but stick another player who can score the same amount at first drop and the team is not going to have its quality degraded significantly.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

That is just my opinion on the matter. I would prefer to have a guy like Ponting in there averaging 40 than a guy like Symonds for example in there averaging 60.

The ability to push the side forward is just as important as actually scoring at number 3. Quite often the only way to do that is to actually score, though.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Caesar;394385 said:
I think you are both overstating it the matter. Certainly he has a certain aura about him which helps the team, but stick another player who can score the same amount at first drop and the team is not going to have its quality degraded significantly.
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Overstating it?

Recently whenever we have collapsed Ponting either hasn't been batting at 3, or fell cheaply.

I don't think I'm overstating it at all.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

That's not proof of anything. India usually doesn't collapse when Dravid plays well. South Africa usually doesn't collapse when Amla plays well.

Very few sides collapse when their number 3 has a good game, that's why the position is considered so important. Whether the batsman is named R.T. Ponting is beside the point.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

I think it does matter. Dravid and Amla are in that position because they are good at it and have similar affects on their respective teams.

I wouldn't go putting Clarke in at three at this point in time - just like I wouldn't put a lot of other batsmen that average 47+ around the world in at that position.

It's not just whether or not the runs are made, but how they are made and how partnerships are formed. Hayden wouldn't have been a good number 3 despite the fact he probably would have surmounted the same number of runs he did opening.

It comes down to the batsman. Doubled with the captaincy, Ponting is simply the best I have seen from any team put in there.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Caesar;394437 said:
That's not proof of anything. India usually doesn't collapse when Dravid plays well. South Africa usually doesn't collapse when Amla plays well.

Very few sides collapse when their number 3 has a good game, that's why the position is considered so important. Whether the batsman is named R.T. Ponting is beside the point.
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No it's not.

Ponting is the best equipped batsmen in our team to bat at 3, even if he has 'only' averaged low 40's there over the last few years.

Recently, many people argued that Ponting should be moved down the order. But I, rightly in my opionion, argued that Ponting averaging 40 odd at 3 is more benefical to the team than if Ponting was averaging 50+ at number 5 or 6.

It might not be what is best for Ponting's individual stats, but it's what is best for the team.

It is a perfect example illustrating the notion that statistics alone are not holistic enough to judge a player, or his worth to the team.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

So your point is... it's good to have a steady player who is able to average low 40s at number 3? Certainly, but we've got plenty of other batsmen in this country who can do the same thing.

Yes, Ponting is still a good number 3. Nobody is arguing with that. All that is being pointed out is that he's no longer irreplacable in that role.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Caesar;394460 said:
...it's good to have a steady player who is able to average low 40s at number 3? Certainly, but we've got plenty of other batsmen in this country who can do the same thing.
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Not just any batsman!

Would you put Gilchrist in number 3? Symonds? They both scored low 40s consistently for most of their career (boosted in some parts, but on the whole was their Test careers).

It's more their affect on the team that I am getting at.
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Caesar;394310 said:
You said it's not often you have a batsman averaging 60 at number three. I was merely agreeing, by pointing out that we don't have one now. ;)

Regardless of your unrequited infatuation with the boozy bruising bogan who captains our fair side, he currently contributes at a quite acceptable but nonetheless unremarkable 43 or so an innings. Unlike Warne and McGrath's returns in the twilight of their careers, this is not irreplacable by any stretch of the imagination.

He is undoubtably one of our alltime great players, but as impressive as his career statistics are, contributions from 5+ years ago do not reflect his current value to the side.
Click to expand...

Could say the same thing about Ponting's past misdemeanours which occured a long tim ago now. ;)
 
Re: Who will finish their careers as the better batsmen? Clarke or Ponting?

Was reading a book by Peter Roebuck that published a range of his articles over the years. One article that was in the book concerned Ponting. There isn't a publish date on the article, but from reading it I'd have a guess and say the article was produced around the 2000/01 season.

Basically Roebuck is saying that Ponting should be elevated to the vice captaincy sooner rather than later. He goes on to say that the move is 'risky'.

Roebuck also says things like "Ponting may not have passed many exams at school" and he treats the game as "not a gentleman's game, but a brawl with no holds barred".

I love that last line.
 
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