Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

sadspinner

Member
I found as much as well in the past. Let us face it, if you use all the levers and pivot well, I doubt how much stronger one finger can spin it. It is the icing on the cake. That is why it is called wrist spin, as the wrist does more of the work than the finger. That is my take on it.
 

sadspinner

Member
Also Tahir took 4 wickets today. Unfortunately I did not get to see him. Will need to get to the highlights. Hope Jim saw him and can give us an update
 

Jim2109

Active Member
not been watching much of the world cup, too busy with work. looking at the scorecard though, 2 of his wickets were Sarwan LBW and Chanderpaul caught. 2 world class batsmen, so i think hes well on track to proving himself on the world stage. hes a class leg spinner, but has definitely improved massively the last year or so in the county game. probably the best leggie in the world right now.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Maybe rolling it off the spinning finger but giving it a big flick with the wrist isnt such a bad thing. It has been working well the last couple of times Ive bowled, like I said before less involvement from the spinning finger seems to free up my wrist and I was getting as much turn and bounce as I have ever got when it was working. Its strange though not involving the spinning finger as much and seeing it turn so much.
That's pretty much what I do (I think), but I can ocassionally get the whole thing together and when it happens - wrist and fingers flicked it feels right and the ball spins so much more. But - I still would like to see slo mo video footage of my release and I'm still prepared to be surprised by what actually happens.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Sunny today in blighty 15 degrees c - last time that happened was in November, so I took a bag of balls and stumps over to a playground to see if I could bowl with a bound. Wasn't expecting anything special, I'd have been happy just be able to do it and get the ball the right distance and somewhere within 5' either side of the stumps, but right from the off, it worked well and within 10 minutes it was going really well turning the ball frequently from outside of leg in and onto or over a single stump. I had to remove the other 2 stumps as I was hitting them too frequently (Plastic stumps) and had to keep walking down and re-positioning them. Very interesting session - reasonably accurate, a lot faster and a lot easier it felt to vary the pace of the ball, maybe that was due to the upper end of the speed scale being so much faster than I'd usually bowl? Everything was working well and I reckon a few more sessions and it'll feel like that's how I've always bowled?

I tried the Wrong Wrong Un again today and this is with this new bowling action and that went unbelievably well, the first ball came out better than my good leg breaks and it drifted massively and the turned massively. Tailed off a little after that, couldn't repeat the first ball and was concerned about bowling out of the back of the hand. But worth a look at every now and then.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
South Africa's Imran Tahir did well today. It's good to see a Wrist Spinner right in there with the action. I like his run in - short with no bound as such a bit Terry Jenner-esque. He was bowling small wrong uns, which is a good tactic, someone pointed out to me a few days back bowling big wrong uns wide of the Off-Stump is pretty dumb if the batsman can read your wrong un. He may see it it come put of the hand looking like a wrong un, but then wide of the off-stump just confirms it.

Good also to see that both teams started up with spinners and they were productive e.g. wickets or keeping the runs to a minimum, whereas when both the pace bowlers were expensive.

Anyone note his field set up?

Another thing I'd never noticed before that someone picked up in the comments on one of my vid is that Jim does that thing Harbijan Singh does, where he rotates his arm 360 degrees before going into the final bowling action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br6v6bXjO6I&feature=related
have a look about 2/3 of the way in and the video goes to a wider shot and you can see it in full.
 

Shahbaz

New Member
As soon as I come to post this, there's a stumping off a flighted delivery from Razzak which the batsman just completely misreads. The Bangladeshi spinners seem to be bowling well whenever they flight the ball, whereas otherwise they often seem a bit harmless; however, they seem to be trying to flight it more now. I'm starting to like this world cup, you know there's something going right when you have spinners on both ends within the first 10 overs. A bit like the Zimbabwean spinners, though, there's a few shorter and wider loose deliveries, but it's still quite entertaining. Naeem Islam seems to be bowling with a great line to the left wingers, angling it in very well combined with his spin away from them. I imagine that that's what left arm slows generally attempt to bowl against right handers. The minnow test sides seem to be playing a lot of spin, so hopefully they'll go far, although so far my favourite bowling attack has probably been South Africa's. It's sad to see that Collins Obuya has defected to the dark side, though, he was great back in the semi-final Kenya side of 2003, which really seems to have gone to the dogs in general by now (I do find it amusing when people use Kenya to argue that Associate sides should be removed from the cup, though).

Tahir was quite brilliant in that West Indies match. Really, especially considering that us leg-spinners are rather renowned for often being inaccurate (Grimmett seems to have been forgotten a bit), he was very consistently accurate, and seemed to have an impressive level of control over his deliveries. While there were a couple of looser balls, somewhat too wide outside off, which got punished by Bravo, two or so loose balls in 10 overs is still an impressive spell, especially considering that there were quite a few southpaws on the other side. Of course, his strength at the googly would also have helped there. It's also refreshing to see an aggressive leg-spinner, especially in present times. It'll be interesting to see how he develops; though West Indies isn't the strongest of teams, the bowling he gave in that match should really be effective against just about any side, so it's really more a matter of consistency. If he does manage to keep him up, it could be interesting to look more closely at his action. Botha was also great, getting quite a lot of spin, and Peterson isn't bad either, although he was a bit more loose than the others. South Africa with a great spinning posse? It's been a while since that's happened.

On the other hand, Australia still seems ironically devoid of good spin.
 

sadspinner

Member
I have been experimenting with what I call a wind up or windmill motion of the arm before delivering the ball. I feel I get better accuracy (though still woeful), and definitely more pace due to the inreased momentum at the time of delivery, but find it decreases turn. Though the latter may be due to 'wrist disorientation'. If you notice swan uses something similar as well. What I like about harbhajan is that his whole action looks like a dance, it gives you the impression of something very rhythmic. Also with this windmill movement of the arm, I find it is 'easier' to bowl a covert ofspinner, ofspinning flipper and backspinner. The twirling of the arms, I feel my help confuse the batsman more.


Also, do you feel that at the beginning of a spell bowling around the wicket gets the action grooved earlier? I seem to naturally rotate more round the wicket being more accurate. Even though this virtually negates the chance of an lbw.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
As soon as I come to post this, there's a stumping off a flighted delivery from Razzak which the batsman just completely misreads. The Bangladeshi spinners seem to be bowling well whenever they flight the ball, whereas otherwise they often seem a bit harmless; however, they seem to be trying to flight it more now. I'm starting to like this world cup, you know there's something going right when you have spinners on both ends within the first 10 overs. A bit like the Zimbabwean spinners, though, there's a few shorter and wider loose deliveries, but it's still quite entertaining. Naeem Islam seems to be bowling with a great line to the left wingers, angling it in very well combined with his spin away from them. I imagine that that's what left arm slows generally attempt to bowl against right handers. The minnow test sides seem to be playing a lot of spin, so hopefully they'll go far, although so far my favourite bowling attack has probably been South Africa's. It's sad to see that Collins Obuya has defected to the dark side, though, he was great back in the semi-final Kenya side of 2003, which really seems to have gone to the dogs in general by now (I do find it amusing when people use Kenya to argue that Associate sides should be removed from the cup, though).

Tahir was quite brilliant in that West Indies match. Really, especially considering that us leg-spinners are rather renowned for often being inaccurate (Grimmett seems to have been forgotten a bit), he was very consistently accurate, and seemed to have an impressive level of control over his deliveries. While there were a couple of looser balls, somewhat too wide outside off, which got punished by Bravo, two or so loose balls in 10 overs is still an impressive spell, especially considering that there were quite a few southpaws on the other side. Of course, his strength at the googly would also have helped there. It's also refreshing to see an aggressive leg-spinner, especially in present times. It'll be interesting to see how he develops; though West Indies isn't the strongest of teams, the bowling he gave in that match should really be effective against just about any side, so it's really more a matter of consistency. If he does manage to keep him up, it could be interesting to look more closely at his action. Botha was also great, getting quite a lot of spin, and Peterson isn't bad either, although he was a bit more loose than the others. South Africa with a great spinning posse? It's been a while since that's happened.

On the other hand, Australia still seems ironically devoid of good spin.
I'm at work so can't watch it, I'll have to have a look tonight. But - it's definitely good to see so much spin in the series. Good also that Smith seems to have got his captaincy right - taking Tahir out of the attack when Bravo started to go at him. Peter Philpott will be pleased too and he's still alive and kicking in NSW, although he's probably distraught with the state of Aussie spin at the minute, he's another big advocate of accurate spin and spin used as an attacking tactic. It all looks very promising.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
I have been experimenting with what I call a wind up or windmill motion of the arm before delivering the ball. I feel I get better accuracy (though still woeful), and definitely more pace due to the inreased momentum at the time of delivery, but find it decreases turn. Though the latter may be due to 'wrist disorientation'. If you notice swan uses something similar as well. What I like about harbhajan is that his whole action looks like a dance, it gives you the impression of something very rhythmic. Also with this windmill movement of the arm, I find it is 'easier' to bowl a covert ofspinner, ofspinning flipper and backspinner. The twirling of the arms, I feel my help confuse the batsman more.


Also, do you feel that at the beginning of a spell bowling around the wicket gets the action grooved earlier? I seem to naturally rotate more round the wicket being more accurate. Even though this virtually negates the chance of an lbw.
When I started out I practiced with an Indian bloke Nakul Handa and he had the windmill action and he was an Offie. He was a very good bowler and his approach was as you've said very rhythmic and dance like too, but he could vary the pace enormously. I've tried it and you get the feeling that there is something definitely in it worth exploring, I found I bowled faster too.

Generally with the threat of getting it wrong the first few balls I go for an off-stump approach right down the middle - over the wicket with my leg break. Line accuracy these days is pretty good for me, length and flight is more of an issue, it takes me a while to recognise the strengths of the batsman. I'm working on this in the nets at the moment and within a few balls I usually then go round the wicket really wide and have a look at how they play me from that approach. Recently there seems to be more of an emphasis in the Warne vids post retirement where he advocates using the width of the wicket and changing your angles. Jenner talks about this too in the ECB vids if I recall correctly. It's something I started to do last year and got some results from, but I think it comes with confidence about how well you're able to bowl to a tight line. LBW's - I never ask the question loudly enough and its something I'm working on and even if I do they're rarely given.
 

shrek

Member
Been watching these matches very closely- not just for the spinners but also for the general tactics being used. Two things stand out - As shown by Ray Price and the others in Zim v Aus - Spin up front is effective and the template has been copied by most other teams. But, kind of spin is also important -mostly they have gone with finger spinners bowling tight lines (aiming to drift it into the pads and then turn away ever so slightly - mostly overspin very little side spin). Part of the reason might just be that all bowlers tend to bowl with mostly overspin these days for higher accuracy - but on the rare occasions that side spin is used it has gotten rewards - Botha vs Gayle, Benn vs Kallis fresh on my mind.

Steven smith as expected has been going with mostly overspin - and as a variation going with his variation of two fingered googly where the ball turns in with a scrambled seam.

I've been trying in vain to figure out how exactly Tahir has been bowling, but the coverage has left me with a lot to be desired- Close-up of the ball in flight is shown very rarely, and the lesser be said about commentary on air about spin tactics the better.
From what I gathered in that innings vs WI is that he has a decent action, no braced front knee, no tucking of the elbow (two things we have discussed extensively here) - and the seam is scrambled most of the time Haven't seen him get any drift - some amount of dip but that is expected. I think the lack of drift will cause him problems against lefties - as DM Bravo showed. After that inital tonking, he didn't really bowl leg breaks to chanderpaul and smith preferring to deal in googlies and topspinners.
The wicket I liked the best was that of Thomas - the wicketkeeper. Last ball of his spell, batsman looking to play him out defending 5 balls in the 45th over, but the last one had an inviting loop outside the off inviting the slog - and game over!

I'm guessing Piyush chawla might get a go tomorrow against england seeing as he was the MOM in the warmup game in the same ground vs Australia. But, that might need some imaginative captaincy from dhoni(dont know if he has the cojones for it)
 

Jim2109

Active Member
Another thing I'd never noticed before that someone picked up in the comments on one of my vid is that Jim does that thing Harbijan Singh does, where he rotates his arm 360 degrees before going into the final bowling action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br6v6bXjO6I&feature=related
have a look about 2/3 of the way in and the video goes to a wider shot and you can see it in full.
Surprised you hadnt noticed that Dave, your son noticed it straight away that day lol. He commented on it when I was bowling.

I'm not sure if I still do it to be honest, I think I probably do, but maybe less pronounced. Its just a natural part of my action, so much so that I can't tell you if its still present, because I just dont notice it! I tried to copy Shane Warnes approach and just raise the arm up then turn it over, but it doesn't work for me. It forces me to completely change my wrist position and its massively inconsistent.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Surprised you hadnt noticed that Dave, your son noticed it straight away that day lol. He commented on it when I was bowling.

I'm not sure if I still do it to be honest, I think I probably do, but maybe less pronounced. Its just a natural part of my action, so much so that I can't tell you if its still present, because I just dont notice it! I tried to copy Shane Warnes approach and just raise the arm up then turn it over, but it doesn't work for me. It forces me to completely change my wrist position and its massively inconsistent.
I noticed that you've taken down all your vids on youtube, I remember you had said something about it a few months back, but I didn't realise it was the whole lot! Thing is they were really popular with thousands of views and loads of comments. Will you do more in the new season?
 

Jim2109

Active Member
yeh i want to make new ones. the old videos are so out-dated, the newest ones are a year old now, the oldest ones almost 2. my action evolves pretty much every time i bowl, and the action by autumn last year was so vastly improved they just didnt reflect my current bowling. which isnt a problem, but it gets annoying when youre getting the same criticisms of your action over and over when its not even your bowling action anymore lol. il get some new vids i[ as soon as the sun comes out. club nets should go back up in the next few weeks, and apparently weve got indoor nets at a local school for a few weeks before the season just to loosen up.
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Nets tonight and I bowled with the new approach e.g. with a big old positive bound rather than a walk in or skip. Early days yet, needs some refining, what with having to wait for 5 other blokes to bowl I never quite got into a good rythmn. Accuracy was okay with line generally, length as always was a bit of an issue, but it was noted that it was faster and seemingly when it was good it was really good. Bowled a superb wrong un that everyone commented 'You only get bowled a ball like that 3 or 4 times in a lifetime' someone said! So the longer term prospect looks good.
 

chippyben

Member
Nets tonight and I bowled with the new approach e.g. with a big old positive bound rather than a walk in or skip. Early days yet, needs some refining, what with having to wait for 5 other blokes to bowl I never quite got into a good rythmn. Accuracy was okay with line generally, length as always was a bit of an issue, but it was noted that it was faster and seemingly when it was good it was really good. Bowled a superb wrong un that everyone commented 'You only get bowled a ball like that 3 or 4 times in a lifetime' someone said! So the longer term prospect looks good.
Good one Dave, its so satisfying bowling a good wrong un because noone at our level has any idea of whats about to come and the look of surprise is priceless.
Isnt it funny that most of us on here haven't settled on a consistant action yet. Ive been going for 18 months or more now and am getting a bit frustrated although I feel Im close. I just want to get one action so I can concentrate on consistancy. I think it is probably the most important thing for confidence, a reliable action that you don't have to worry about.
I bet Warne wasnt thinking, "should my leg be here or arm there" when he was bowling.
 

TonyM

Member
Nets tonight and I bowled with the new approach e.g. with a big old positive bound rather than a walk in or skip. Early days yet, needs some refining, what with having to wait for 5 other blokes to bowl I never quite got into a good rythmn. Accuracy was okay with line generally, length as always was a bit of an issue, but it was noted that it was faster and seemingly when it was good it was really good. Bowled a superb wrong un that everyone commented 'You only get bowled a ball like that 3 or 4 times in a lifetime' someone said! So the longer term prospect looks good.
Great news Dave, I think the key word is 'positive' bound (in truth it probably doesnt need to be that big - certainly not Lillee esque) and that is probably giving much more 'drive' through the delivery stide, and you are right in that you now need to grove this into a rythm you are comfortable with. Is there any chance of a video at some point?
 

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Great news Dave, I think the key word is 'positive' bound (in truth it probably doesnt need to be that big - certainly not Lillee esque) and that is probably giving much more 'drive' through the delivery stide, and you are right in that you now need to grove this into a rythm you are comfortable with. Is there any chance of a video at some point?
Yeah, definitely as soon as the weather allows it, I'm interested in seeing it myself, at the moment the bound feels a bit 'Big' and possibly needs to be toned down a bit, but fundamentally it's sound by the feel of it. I worked with it for an hour with a single stump last Thursday and that went really well as it allowed me to get into a bit of a groove. So, yes very promising for the longer term.
 

chippyben

Member
Just had a good session at my teams training. I felt really relaxed today and was getting good turn and worrying everyone. My wrong un has come on a treat. Previously I was trying to get my wrist too far around and whilst it turns more it comes out really slow and loopy and I have to drop my leading shoulder to get it on a better trajectory. Tonight I wasnt getting my wrist as far around but bowling it with a bit more of a round arm (my personal quirk I guess as most instruction on the wrong un says get the arm higher).
The result was it was faster and not as obvious to pick. It doesnt turn as much but still turns enough and a few times batsmen went to leave them thinking they were leg breaks. I cant wait until I bowl them on turf as they won't bounce over the stumps.
One batsman commented that I was bowling faster than normal which is good because I was more relaxed and felt like I was putting in less effort. Still too many bad balls for my liking though, probably 2 per over which is a lot better than before and getting better but still not enough to get a regular bowl. I find now that the bad balls either get stuck in the fingers and get dragged down to the off side or slip out and are big leg side full tosses. Not good either way!!
 
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