Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Sounds like you are going well James! I believe if you click more options when writing a post or "upload a file" you may be able to upload a video from there. However, I am unsure as I normally upload onto her from my YouTube channel.
     
  2. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are many times that the ball is too full and on the leg side. Such as https://gyazo.com/4c65bfae82a79d5de512b898e9238e14.

    Maybe the high arm has never been a problem with the drag downs or full tosses. Maybe it has just been how early I have been releasing the ball, I think the inconsistency in my action is from different release points, the accurate balls have been released perfecly with good spin, the early balls are really full. You can see that in my last video from the batsmans view. However, I am gonna try and lower my arm a little, and also get my head over my foot, as I believe leaning forward will encourage this.
    I think I went wrong straight away by learning all variations instead of focusing on one and perfecting it. My googly is my best delivery, sadly, I genuinely have more confidence that I will pitch that then the leggie, my googly is 95% accurate, it is not picked and it turns a long way. The Top spinner is also very accurate, so now I have just got to perfect my leg Spinner.

    So the plan is, to work on one thing at a time. First the releasing time, second the leaning forward and thirdly the arm height.

    Whats your opinion on what I just said about the high arm might not be the problem with my spin? And could the early releases also be the reason for the scrambled seam through the air? I also think that the reason for my abrupt follow through is because of the early release, as there is no momentum to carry forward.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  3. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Googly Syndrome:eek:
     
  4. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    James, tell me how you bowl your 'Slider'.
     
  5. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That is the type of ball you will get with the early release. You will probably also get a feeling that the ball is slipping out of your hand - that is, essentially, because it is doing exactly that. The drag downs come purely from releasing it too late. The spinning finger gets stuck on top of the ball and as you are past the point of ideal release, the spinning finger forces the ball downwards, producing a drag down. If you have a problem with the early release, then producing drag downs in practice is not a bad thing as it is a sign that you are getting close to the ideal release position.

    That's a very common thing. People think that they have the legspinner and move onto the variations. But having the legspinner isn't the same as being able to bowl a legspinner. Having the legspinner means that you have, pretty much, mastered it or close to it. Until you have it at a high standard you are at risk of losing it by working on something like the googly. I was in the same position and I ended up with the googly being my best delivery.

    This is the thing to remember with regards your issue with the early release: the googly often relies on an earlier release. Developing the googly will often mean that you start releasing the ball a bit earlier and then that can lead to that early release becoming muscle memory and all deliveries then have that early release. As mentioned before, the early release ensures that you will not be able to get more than about 10%-15% sidespin on the ball. Probably the best way to develop and bowl the googly is to work on releasing it with the later release (which you can do). The googly isn't as good and you will tend to bowl legspinners at times when trying to bowl the googly. This is what we saw with Warne. His googly was never the best but he accepted that because to develop a better googly would mean having a higher arm and an earlier release. It makes it easier to pick and, more importantly, it risks weakening your legspinner.

    I would focus only on the later release. The reason for that is that by simply releasing it later you will naturally get your head over your front foot. Also, the lower arm can only really be worked on once you are releasing it at the right time.

    This is something that I've been struggling with, so I know all about it. My stock ball became a ball that was about 90% overspin and 10% sidespin with the occaisonal topspinner and googly thrown in. I've been down to the nets today and bowling to a batter. After a week or two of work over a shorter distance, I have now found that my stock ball is about 70%-80% overspin and 20%-30% sidespin with the occaisonal topspinner thrown in and the occaisonal legspinner thrown in (ie 50% overspin and 50% sidespin). I was hoping that I would jump back to the 50% overspin/50% sidespin ball, but it's looking like it will be a gradual process of getting more sidespin and less overspin bit by bit. I would imagine that within 2 or 3 weeks I will be back to the 50/50 ball. The good news is that I was turning most balls away from the bat, causing the batter a few problems and getting a bit of confidence back in my bowling. The full legside ball happened only 3 or 4 times in 30mins of bowling. In short, that muscle memory you have for the release point has to be gradually altered. It might be different for you, but for me it looks like I won't be able to go from releasing it at the point I was (which, from side on footage I took, was actually at vertical and even before the vertical for some balls - which is way, way, way too early) to the correct point straight away. I will have to release it a little bit later and then work on releasing it a little bit later again, until I am releasing at the point I need to be releasing it. That means going from a 90/10 ball to a 80/20 ball to a 70/30 ball to a 60/40 ball to the final 50/50 ball.
     
  6. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    I'm sure this will be connected to the issues that myself and Tom are having. As far as I am aware, the key to bowling the slider is to release it very late and right out of the font of the hand. Those bowlers who bowl very good topspinners and googlys tend not to be able to bowl the slider. That tends to be a ball that is bowled by those who bowl a good legspinner with plenty of sidespin.

    It's a great ball to have and one I think legspinners should work on before working on the googly.
     
  7. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I don't think its that Dave, I just think that my googly is a more effective delivery then my leggie at this current stage, similar to Imran Tahir I guess!
     
  8. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I agree. I struggle to bowl the slider, I normally just try and flick it out the front, normally resulting in a drag down, hence why I don't bowl it. It will be something to work on in the unforseeable future, I need to get release point correct before I develop any new deliveries.
     
  9. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Good advice. I agree about the googly situation, with me developing that early, it has made my release all my deliveries early. I know this is only early days but I bowled about 20 balls earlier before it got dark on the driveway from a standing start, practicing leaning towards the batsman and with the later release, and I have to say it went very well, every ball landed on the mat I was using, (1 yard with, 3 yards length) early days but looking promising. In response to the % of over spin to side spin ratio, I would say I am 90:10, so I will be trying to get mine to 70:30 gradually.

    With the release point, I am sometimes releasing the ball behind my head, so no wonder the scrambled scream happens with a leg side full toss is bowled! My release point is really key so I will be definitely focusing on that.
     
  10. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    I think that's the way to do it. I used to bowl 50/50 and I suspect I didn't just go from 50/50 to 90/10. It was probably gradual and so it will most likely be fixed gradually also.

    Yeah, I filmed my bowling from side on and was shocked to see that some balls I was bowling were also delivered from behind my head (or, at least, the release was starting behind my head). Those balls had a very high trajectory, as you would expect. It's difficult to go from that to releasing it at the correct point in one stage because that instinct to release it early is hard wired. It will have to be worked on, as I say, gradually. Remember, if at any point you feel you are releasing it too early, go back to bowling to a shorter distance or a step/stand start. Don't carry on trying to release it later. I've experienced that. One day you are getting the release right and the next day you are back to an early release. Equally, you will find that once you bowl one that is released too early, it is very likely that the next one will be too early. Be careful with that because you want to stamp out all early releases completely. Each one you bowl is reinforcing something you want to get rid of, so make sure to stay in control of it. It's why I struggled to fix it during the season because I'd work on it through the week and then play at the weekend and go back to old habbits. Any time you feel you are releasing it too early, stop and take a break or bowl off 12 yards.
     
  11. The Edge Of Willow

    The Edge Of Willow Member

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    I don't think Warne's front foot position at the crease helped this either. In the last couple of weeks I've been changing my front foot position from across my body (with a big twist around the front foot) to aligned just to the left of my back foot (with more of a step-over). It seems to have made the googly much easier. I hardly have a good one, since I've never really tried it, but I'm getting the wrist into a much better position to bowl it. It actually coming out with side-spin rather than just being a top-spinner.

    To me a decent googly seems almost impossible to bowl with the front foot landing across the body, at least without compromising other parts of an action need for a good leg-spinner. The need to rotate so far at the moment of release seems to prevent bringing over the arm in position for a half-decent googly.
     
  12. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    The thing with the googly is that you need it to be well disguised. For some people, myself included, you can only bowl the googly by having a high arm, a lower left shoulder and an earlier release point. That's ok against a lot of batters. Once you get to a decent standard, it is a big give away. At Test level, you simply wouldn't get away with it. You would need consistency in position at the crease and consistency in the release point. Adil Rashid and the ECB have been doing some videos recently (not very good videos, I should add), but you see Rashid talk about having the same release point in this little video:



    This works for Rashid because he has a relatively earlier release point for his legspinner. The likes of Warne released the ball at a 60 degree angle. Rashid is somwhere around the 75 degree angle, which is not far from the vertical. He's been working with Warne this week and I wonder if Warne is encouraging Rashid to release the ball a bit later?

    The front foot position is always an interesting one. Traditionally, the advice was to have the heel of the front foot on the same line as the toe of the back foot, but Warne's front foot was often a good bit wider than that. This gives you more rotation but also makes it slightly more difficult to bowl. I'm sure it impacts on the googly also.
     
  13. James513

    James513 Member

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    I bowl my slider just out the front of the hand, rolling my palm and fingers under the ball creating underspin just like a normal medium pace delivery but slower. I will try and post a video of it in the coming days.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  14. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    @Cleanprophet would you say that me leaning forward more in my action, means a lower shoulder? Because leaning forward improves my bowling massively, however, I know we discussed earlier about sturggling to get out a leggie with a low shoulder? Is leaning forward, like Smith, over the front foot with an arm angle of around MacGill okay?
     
  15. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Cheers James.
     
  16. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    hey Dave,

    just noticed a few things.

    There is very little chest drive (perhaps none) :(
    This is the first side-on I've seen of your bowling so hadn't noticed before. It's a big thing! If you look at Warne et al, I am sure they are actually releasing the ball with the arm behind the body, whereas yours is ahead
    tbh I don't know how you get the ball down the other end at a decent lick without the chest drive!

    maybe this is associated with the lack of front leg bracing / collapse

    also the front arm action is pretty wooly. IMO it should come to a clean stop before the final surge to release the ball. Stopping the front arm causes the bowling arm to sling through (conservation of angular momentum). But your front arm is still on its way down. (the alternative front arm technique is to swing it way back without stopping, but that also involves it coming past the body before the ball is released).
     
  17. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    You can drop that left shoulder whilst completely upright (that is, whilst your head is quite a way short of your front foot) and you can drop the left shoulder whilst your head is over your front foot. Imagine you are reaching up to a shelf with your right hand. If you start dropping your left shoulder, you will find it harder to reach the shelf. That's all that is happening. Your fingers need to be over the top of the ball and the more the left shoulder drops, the harder it is to do that. You can get right over the front foot and keep that shoulder upright (as you see from the footage of MacGill in that Rawalpindi Test - not easy to see as it is a 2D image from behind, but rest assured that MacGill is right over his front foot whilst that left shoulder has dropped only a small amount). I was watching Azhar Ali bowl his part -time legspin today and his shoulder was dropped massively. No surprise to see that he bowled a good googly and a very ordinary legspinner (in fact, I would consider him to be a googly bowler who's best/stock ball is the googly). As Warne would always say, you are a legspinner and the legspinner delivery is the best ball you could bowl, so if you become a googly bowler like Azhar Ali then you are not going to be as effective.

    It's important to recognise the difference between a poor release and a poor length. A legspinner can release the ball nicely but get the length all wrong. A poor release can see the ball land on a good length. The two types of poor release you will see is the drag down and the full toss. Those bowlers who look to release it late will be more prone to the drag down (something Steve Smith does) and those who release it a bit early will be prone to the full toss (something Adil Rashid does). Equally, those who release it later will be able to get more sidespin and will be able to bowl legspinners with big revs and those who release it early will bowl better googlys.

    Remember, by releasing it later you will get over that front foot naturally without thinking about. That position over the front foot is a consequence of releasing it later. You can't get that later release without being right over your front foot. The aim is to release it late enough to get lots of sidspin (50/50) and to keep that left shoulder from dropping.
     
  18. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Yeah loads of things wrong with it at the moment. At the moment I'm not doing it with a ball and releasing it, but I suspect it'll be a disaster when I do, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Chest Drive? You'll have to elaborate on that. Leading arm, yep I'm well aware of that as an issue, the collapsing leg I'll have a look at now and see what you mean, but I think I know what you mean.
     
  19. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    I wouldn't worry about that front leg. The biggest thing that stands out is that you're upper body is a bit too far back in the delivery stride. That's why your front leg is bent. The more you get over the front foot, the more that front leg will brace. The further behind it you are, the more likely it is to be bent. Obviously if it is bent a lot then you will lose some energy from your approach to the crease. A slightly later release will help you get over that front foot more and that front leg will brace a bit more, creating a bit more momentum through the delivery.

    The back leg looks a bit exaggerated in its movement too. It swings out a lot, which can't be helpful. Trust me, I've been there, don't give any thought at all to the back leg movement. If you get everything else right, then the movement of the back leg takes care of itself. As long as it's not dragging behind you, then don't worry about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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  20. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    Here's a little clip of bowling from yesterday. Just walking in, not running or jumping for this one. One thing I focused on was having a nice loose grip. I did see someone mention having a firmer grip on the ball if the ball is being released early and slipping out of your hand. I'd say the opposite is required. Every wrist spinner you see mentions having a nice loose grip and relaxed wrist. In ensuring my grip was nice and loose I found that I got the later release much more consistently and also had a nice arm position (not high and not too low). In this clip, the ball lands short and isn't very good as an actual delivery that would trouble a batter, but it is released with lots of sidespin and turns plenty:

     
Put it out there