The BaggyGreens Thread

baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
I mentioned the leftie issue as I want someone to stand up and take Starc's place. I reckon the only reason Starc was first picked back in national U19s and why they continue with him is to balance the attack and the fact that, like all l/armers, he has ability to move the ball away from lefties.
Forget about the poor figures by some as they have hardly played any FC games. They have impressed me in the few they have played.. such as Neil-Smith. There were big wraps on David Moody and Mickey Edwards but they have dropped off the perch. Hadley will get his chance to further impress selectors .. that is if they play any Futures this summer. Hardie a Pom.. we dont want them playing for us. ;)
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Who do you see as next gen bowlers and bats. I will throw up a few names for future Aussie willow wielders. Tests only.
Two certainties in Will Pucovski and Cameron Green. Bryce Street (probable), Daniel Drew, Lachlan Hearne, Corey Hunter, Ryan Hackney, Mitchell Owen, Oliver Davies, Cooper Connolly, Bradley Hope, Tom Kelly (possibles).
Jason Sangha, Henry Hunt, Mac Wright (outsiders)
 
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69er

Member
For the future, possible Australian :thumbsd:
Agree with Will and Cameron, within next year to 18 months if I had my way (India has already admitted they will be poor, so final 2 tests against India may be the right time). Anyone can see they've got the IT factor , so they should be developed now training with Australia at any possible time, released to play for states if not required

Bryce Street, Renshaw, Bancroft could all be around for 10 years, Your boy Sam Fanning is another to watch, not now, but maybe in 2 years (but only if you get rid of Hughes and Larkin, otherwise he'll just languish in grade cricket and disappear)

Smith and Labuchagne will be around pretty close to 10 more years and with Pucovski and Green, that's a middle order

IMO Daniel Drew at 24 hasn't done any thing, Lachlan Hearne was average at the U19 world cup, so he'll probably make the NSW shield side, but that will be about it. Corey Hunter won't amount to anything, Qld have a lot of youth already performing well they won the shield a couple of years ago with just their youth and there are a lot of others so unless he moves state he'll only be a club cricketer.

Oliver Davis is a T20 with fielding restriction batsman very much like Chris Lynn, don't get me wrong I'm a big Lynn fan who has a seriously under-rated FC performance.... Averages something like 45 at FC level. You may disagree but look at his strike-rate at Club level. Now if selectors are consistent and fair he will never play tests, but being from NSW who knows, they may do a Warner and promote him before he even plays Sheffield Shield. Same as Max Bryant from Qld

Cooper Connolly to early to tell, he's 17, a very good 17 year old, but wait till party time and girls come along, and he may be very good at school, so Uni comes first as it should.

Corey and Thomas Kelly nice story, but doubtful they will amount to anything, but South Australian, may get state contracts, SA need all the help they can get. Look out for Isaac Higgins from SA

Wicket-keeper Alex Carey and Jimmy Pierson's have that position for the next 5-8 years, so they'll be looking for maybe Baxter Holt, Patrick Rowe

All-rounders, I think you miss-typed the Sangha, hopefully you meant Tanveer Sangha not Jason. Keep your on a fellow from Qld Nathan McSweeney leading Run scorer for Australia in U19 a couple of years ago has made his FC debut showed a lot of ticker with the bat very Bryce Street like, but his bowling is coming on well from what I hear. Jonathan Merlo I am not overly wrapped in.

Bowlers
Jhye Richardson of course if he becomes fit.
Xavier Bartlett is on my list now, Lloyd Pope, Blake Edwards, Will Lovell, Will Sutherland, Param Uppal , Zac Evans, but I don't like to pass judgement too quickly on bowlers, they have to develop with time. Look at Matthew Kelly, didn't really come onto the scene till last year at 25, same as Nathan Ellis.

All FC bowlers average the same between 23-28, so not a lot of difference really, For myself it really comes down to SR, who is the most effective. But I don't think that is the case for selectors so who knows.
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
I can find nothing at state level on Sam Fanning. Except he is another promising player let go by us. WA giving him huge wraps. Another kid I did not mention is Jaden Goodwin.. son of Murray.
Leave national underage out of the equasion 69er. I am talking only of red ball performances. Look at Drew, Davies, Hearnes, and some of the others Futures & PL results (MyCricket). Jason Sangha's bowling is seen as all rounder standard despite what you say. Nevill rarely bowls him but CA rates him. Can Tanveer Sangha (no relation) bat. I have always regarded slow bowlers to be able to hold a bat and contribute substantive runs. Pope who looks our most promising wristie bats 10 for his state. Warne made many handy contributions with the willow.
Most of those quicks you mentioned are already on the scene.. I'm speaking only of emerging pacemen. Will Sutherland looks no more than a handy licorice allsorts cricketer for mine.. Jon Merlo impressed in underage and CA white ball.. not seen much of him in red ball. Will Lovell? Have heard of Angus. Where has he gone too may I ask?
And what of emerging spinners. We have a plethora of those coming thru. Tanveer Sangha, Will Parker, Arjun Nair, Liam O'Connor. I still have Daniel Fallins in this list. Shud not have been delisted from the Blues without barely playing a state red ball match. WA Chinaman tweaker Clinton Hinchliffe is in the same boat. One wristie you probably have not heard much about.. Devin Malone. Doubt the rest of the country will either as this kid is another promising cricket that selectors ignore. Has not played a Futures match that I recall. From memory the Sydneysider took all 10 innings wickets in his second PL top grade match as a 17 year old.. link to his PL record. http://mycricket.cricket.com.au/com...yer.aspx?playerid=719027&save=0&entityid=1900
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
For myself it really comes down to SR,
Yes and no. Hit the deck types yes as their S/R is usually steeper than say the more conventional bowler such as a seamer. A specialist seamer relies less on pace and more on removing a batsmen by building pressure thru relentless accuracy. There is no discrepancy with a hit the deck bloke.. 99.9 % of his wickets come from aggression and pace whereas a wily seamer can work over a batsman mentally but another bowler may take his wicket.. due to a reckless batting release from built up pressure by his seamer partner.. thus belying the seamer's abilty due to a lesser S/R. I will always view the worth of a specialist seamer superior to a down and out speed merchant.
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
You no doubt have heard of Craig Howard. I have not as he only played 16 games for the VICS. I am reading he is now CA's official spin coach and oversaw the last spin camp at the NCC back in 2019. This is the list of tweakers invited to attend the camp.
Ashton Agar (WA), Tom Andrews (SA), Daniel Fallins (NSW), Jarrod Freeman (Tas), Chris Green (NSW), Todd Murphy (Vic), Arjun Nair (NSW), Tom O'Connell (Vic), Wil Parker (Vic), Lloyd Pope (SA), Jason Sangha (NSW), Tanveer Sangha (NSW), Mitchell Swepson (Qld), Ryan Walker (Qld).
A few names unknown to me.. Ryan Walker, Todd Murphy and Tom O'Connell.

Jarrod Freeman has barely had a game with Tasmania and they are screaming out for a specialist tweaker. Does Wil Parker have a Vic rookie contract. He looks a good prospect. Not surprising either is no Devin Malone. The kid is averaging @20.4 with 400 PL wickets under his belt and no one of note is seeing this.
 

Signman

also known as Mal
Absolutely Richie... in tests especially it's
Yes and no. Hit the deck types yes as their S/R is usually steeper than say the more conventional bowler such as a seamer. A specialist seamer relies less on pace and more on removing a batsmen by building pressure thru relentless accuracy. There is no discrepancy with a hit the deck bloke.. 99.9 % of his wickets come from aggression and pace whereas a wily seamer can work over a batsman mentally but another bowler may take his wicket.. due to a reckless batting release from built up pressure by his seamer partner.. thus belying the seamer's abilty due to a lesser S/R. I will always view the worth of a specialist seamer superior to a down and out speed merchant.
Absolutely Richie, your specialist seamer consistently applies good pressure to the batsmen generally adding more value to the attack than an express bowler who tends to spray the ball either side of the wicket... a test match is a game of patience so want them to play at the ball as much as possible & constantly threaten them bowling in good areas.
 

baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Absolutely Richie... in tests especially it's

Absolutely Richie, your specialist seamer consistently applies good pressure to the batsmen generally adding more value to the attack than an express bowler who tends to spray the ball either side of the wicket... a test match is a game of patience so want them to play at the ball as much as possible & constantly threaten them bowling in good areas.
Precisely Mal. Consequently his strike rate may be down so is his wicket tally. Dont mean he is any less of a bowler than a express merchant.
 

69er

Member
You no doubt have heard of Craig Howard. I have not as he only played 16 games for the VICS. I am reading he is now CA's official spin coach and oversaw the last spin camp at the NCC back in 2019. This is the list of tweakers invited to attend the camp.
Ashton Agar (WA), Tom Andrews (SA), Daniel Fallins (NSW), Jarrod Freeman (Tas), Chris Green (NSW), Todd Murphy (Vic), Arjun Nair (NSW), Tom O'Connell (Vic), Wil Parker (Vic), Lloyd Pope (SA), Jason Sangha (NSW), Tanveer Sangha (NSW), Mitchell Swepson (Qld), Ryan Walker (Qld).
A few names unknown to me.. Ryan Walker, Todd Murphy and Tom O'Connell.

Jarrod Freeman has barely had a game with Tasmania and they are screaming out for a specialist tweaker. Does Wil Parker have a Vic rookie contract. He looks a good prospect. Not surprising either is no Devin Malone. The kid is averaging @20.4 with 400 PL wickets under his belt and no one of note is seeing this.
Ryan Walker is a Qlder, who you could say was second fiddle to LLoyd Pope and got selected for Australia U19 in 2019

You don't know who Todd Murphy is? He's the one that batted with Connor Sully from Qld against England to put on 50 runs for the final wicket to get Australia into the semis at the last U19WC, otherwise it was goodbye for Australia. You don't follow age cricket?

Tom OÇonnell plays for us mainly in OD, he's ok, but not great, more an economical bowler in T20.

Will Parker does have a full contract not rookie. I'll wait to see how he develops, he did have a good game against NSW last year when Victoria destroyed NSW just prior to what would have be the final, so NSW must be grateful for CoVid19, they wouldn't have won otherwise.

Devlin Malone? Wasn't he around when Pope dominated U19 in 2016 or was it 2015. As I've said before Grade cricket in NSW has too many clubs to take performances that seriously, who are you going to push aside Lyon, O'Keefe, Nair, Fallins, Zampa, Tanveer Sangha who have performed at the highest level available to them, generally you only play one spinner.

Fastest way to slow a run rate or economy rate? Take wickets, guaranteed to slow batsmen every time. How many times you take 1 wicket and you see a second and third fall because of the pressure of the loss of a wicket. Economical bowlers with high strike rates don't cause pressure, all they do is give plenty of deliveries for batsmen to get their eye in, there is no pressure generated at test level because batsmen can bat all day there is no time restriction, so economical bowlers with high strike rates are detrimental at test level, especially in Australia where being in the field is energy sapping. England and NZ a bit cooler so not as much of a concern. Low strike rates especially over a few tests means bowlers are taking wickets quickly and oppositions don't have time to score runs, you win more than you lose.

This "balance in attack" is rubbish and Glenn McGrath proves that. Average number of wickets per test extremely high at 4.5. Low Strike rate? Yes only 52. Low average? Yes 21. Being an Economical bowler at 2.49 is the side-effect of his ability to take wickets. New batsmen were under pressure because of his style of bowling, forcing batsmen to play shots and the wickets fell. You have to take 20 wickets in a match to have any chance of winning. The longer you take to take those wickets, the less time you have to bat, and more pressure on batsmen trying to obtain a winning result and batsmen errors are more likely.

I'll take the reverse argument, Strike bowlers make economical bowlers look better than what they are because batsmen start chasing deliveries they would normally leave to the keeper, in fear that the strike bowler is going to take their wicket so they want to score some runs before they are dismissed. We see that batsmen mentality when batsmen batting with the tail start throwing the bat, which goes against what a batsman would normally do.

It is one of the reasons Australia has lost so many games over the last 2 years, they haven't been able to take 20 wickets, and quite a few of the losses the opposition declared an innings closed, and that is the ultimate insult to a bowling attack. (India in the 3rd test and 4th declared in all innings... that was one of the lowest points in Australian test cricket history)
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Devlin Malone? Wasn't he around when Pope dominated U19 in 2016
Not him. Well if you have taken all 10 wickets as a 17 year old and in the top grade surely that sends a signal to selectors that this kid may be special. That has proven the case with his impressive record. How many leggies do you know that average @20 after playing 4/5 years of top grade PC. In fact how many spinners period. Betting Pope never has nor any of those on your list.. even Zampa. Was Warne averaging @20 at Malone's age?

Glenn McGrath proves that. Average number of wickets per test extremely high at 4.5. Low Strike rate? Yes only 52. Low average? Yes 21.
Didnt you say anything under 5 wkts per test was sub standard. I certainly dont think it is. Btw it took the great man some time to reach those kinda figures. Once he did he maintained them. That is why he goes down as one the games great bowlers. I recall McGrath only came into his own on the West Indies tour of 95.. two years after his debut. I think it was McDermott and Mr Bowlologist went down with injury either before or on tour and McGrath was called in. He finished with the second best figures behind Courtney Walsh.

Strike bowlers make economical bowlers look better than what they are because batsmen start chasing deliveries they would normally leave to the keeper, in fear that the strike bowler is going to take their wicket
Pie in the sky stuff. The economic bowler applies pressure not only with his accuracy but by putting the batsman in two minds.. whether to play a delivery or not. His wickets often come with the batman's decision to play at the wrong ball.

You don't follow age cricket?
I most certainly do, despite it being white ball. How else do you keep up with the next gen cricketer. Name still dont ring any bells. I watch so much cricket sometimes it is just a blur. Wasn't the last WC held overseas? Perhaps I missed the game.. or simply forgot that innings of Murphy.
 
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69er

Member
No I said anything under 4 is substandard, no bowler in the history of the game has a 5 wickets per test average. And not many with averages under 4 have a long term presence in test cricket.

Agree to disagree on everything else... I've noticed your arguments will change depending on what player your trying to promote, or have a back-handed defence of an under-performing player, but the common thing is they all have ties to NSW. When you go on about your great NSW players, I find it tiresome and won't reply in the future. I on the other hand am quite willing to promote a NSW player like Tanveer Sangha, Baxter Holt, Pareem Uppal etc because they do have recognisable talent, but don't get all upset when you make a comment and someone points out contrary performances. Don't promote them if you can't handle the criticism.

Here's the scorecard for the U19 WC.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-match-group-b-icc-under-19-world-cup-2019-20

Forgot about Mackenzie Harvey as a future player, but I am forgiven he hasn't lived up to the hype around him yet.
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
When you go on about your great NSW players, I find it tiresome and won't reply in the future.
Am I supposed to write touche now?
..and where are all these NSW players I am supposed to go on about then? Your talking thru your hat again.
Two certainties in Will Pucovski and Cameron Green. Bryce Street (probable), Daniel Drew, Lachlan Hearne, Corey Hunter, Ryan Hackney, Mitchell Owen, Oliver Davies, Cooper Connolly, Bradley Hope, Tom Kelly (possibles).
Jason Sangha, Henry Hunt, Mac Wright
(outsiders)
Ten of that list are not from my state. So where is the NSW bias.
Will Parker, Jarrod Freeman are not from NSW, Jaden Goodwin is from WA as are Clint Hitchcliffe and Liam O'Connor. I am also backing your claims about Sam Fanning (WA) I have seen some WC footage.. albeit white ball.. and he looks a destructive batsman. I also saw some footage of him in the nets. He has a eye like a dead fish and I was specially impressed with his spin play.. good use of feet and not scared to meet the ball and loft. Nothing pisses off a spin bowler more than having some bloke drop kick you back over your head.

I reckon it is a case of you doing same as what you say I am doing. I deny I am bias against players from my state while you tend to push mostly Qlanders and to a lesser extent Vics and how great they are.. Do you deny that.
 
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69er

Member
These are the "promising players" you have been promoting in your posts here and the shield game threads, when NSW weren't even playing.

Ryan Hadley, Ryan Hackney, Lawrence Neil-Smith, Nathan Ellis, Nick Winter, Henry Hunt, Macalister Wright, Lachlan Hearne, Tim Ward, Jason Sangha, Oliver Davies, Devin Malone, Henry Thornton, Charlie Wakim, Ian Calisle, Liam Scott, a few more and you'll have enough for 2 Australian teams, No I can't see any bias. At what point do you think you've come to the bottom of the barrel? And tell me which ones have done anything noteworthy in Futures or FC over any period of time.

Heaven help me when NSW actually are playing.

What Qld player have I been promoting? Labuchagne? Bartlett or Street? They had a good game. Neser I will admit, amazing talent IMO. Nathan McSweeney is just a player I was told to keep an eye on by a Qld mate, Maybe McDermott, he did have a good game, Gannon, he also had a good game, I'm not promoting, just saying they had a good games. I've was critical of Mark Steketee, Mitch Swepson even though he won the game for Qld
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Ryan Hadley, Ryan Hackney, Lachlan Hearne.
They are promising..along with plenty from other states. They just happen to be born in my state is all. Mac Wright and Nick Winter dont belong in that list. I never wrapped Liam Scott or Charlie Wakim and I lamented that Ian Carlisle, Hunt, Neil-Smith, Ellis, Tim Ward and Henry Thornton were all lost to us because of poor selection. They are all good cricketers. You are clutching at straws 69er.

Heaven help me when NSW actually are playing.
If they play like crap I'll be bagging them along with you.
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
The oddest thing this. As far as I know Henry Thornton is now supposed to be playing his cricket in Victoria. Why then was a Henry Thornton with the same initials (HTR) playing for Eastern Suburbs in the NSW Premier League on October 10.
 

Signman

also known as Mal
The oddest thing this. As far as I know Henry Thornton is now supposed to be playing his cricket in Victoria. Why then was a Henry Thornton with the same initials (HTR) playing for Eastern Suburbs in the NSW Premier League on October 10.
That's very unusual mate.

Richie - you probably have some top up-and-coming players in particular that are applying real pressure on some of the incumbents in your test team... what players would you say deserve a crack ?
 

baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Common sense has prevailed and the touring Indians will now be able to train while being quarantined before the 4 tester in December. Was the pinko run state of Qld trying to scuttle the series thru Palaszczuk 's draconian regulation of confining the Indian squad to a hotel during quarantine. The BCCI said no way so CA had to go searching for another state that was prepared to allow India the freedom of a bio-security bubble to train while in a two week quarantine. They found one so now expect the Indian squad to be occupying a Sydney hotel and a Sydney training ground. You blew it OLD.
 
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baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
That's very unusual mate.

Richie - you probably have some top up-and-coming players in particular that are applying real pressure on some of the incumbents in your test team... what players would you say deserve a crack ?
Good to see your input here Mal. Top of the next gen list is Cameron Green and Will Pucovski. Green a 199cm native West Aussie has the tools to be as good a pace bowling all rounder as the game has seen. He announced himself at 17 years when he took a fivefor in his first FC match. In another he took a bag of wickets and scored a 50+. Then he was struck down and missed almost two season with back stress fractures. He returned late last season and proceeded to smash a big FC hundred. He has started this season in similar mode.. yesterday completing a marathon 197 (440 balls batted all day) to drive Western Australia's push for victory. After remodeling his action Green will return to bowling within two weeks. He is more an accurate seamer than a hit the deck merchant. But he can push the speed gun at 145mph. and with his great elevation is a real handful.
His current FC averages are: @51.5 bat, @21.5 ball after 17 matches.
I'll give you some gen on batsman Will Pucosvski next time Mal.
 
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Signman

also known as Mal
Will keep an eye out for both of them mate - Green sounds an excellent cricketer, he's very similar in height to our bowling all-rounder Kyle Jamieson who's 6' 8'' ...bowlers at Green's & Jamieson's height are always going be difficult to face with the steep bounce they're going to get if they bowl 135 plus with accuracy.

Looking forward to info on Will Pucosvski when you're able to post it Richie.
 

baggygreen man

also known as Richie
Staff member
Will keep an eye out for both of them mate - Green sounds an excellent cricketer, he's very similar in height to our bowling all-rounder Kyle Jamieson who's 6' 8'' ...bowlers at Green's & Jamieson's height are always going be difficult to face with the steep bounce they're going to get if they bowl 135 plus with accuracy.

Looking forward to info on Will Pucosvski when you're able to post it Richie.
:thumbsu:
 
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