Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

[a for effort]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I heard that the only organism that can survive a nuclear holocaust is a Victorian cricketer

 

[AB1]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Clint McKay is someone who I really think can be a good bowler for Australia, in the Stuart Clark mode.

Surely you are having a laugh?

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

No I'm not.

I have a pretty good track record with predicting who will cut it and who won't - I was saying years ago that Watson was going to be a great player.

McKay reminds me a lot of Clark, he is tall and hits that length with a bit of nip either way. Sure, his not quick but his weight allows him to get good bounce and I think he complements our attack well.

At this stage I would definitely be selecting McKay over Siddle.

At full strength this is the attack I would be picking.

Hilfenhaus
Bollinger
Johnson
Hauritz
Watson

Subs (in order)

McKay
Siddle
Harris

Hauritz will end up taking 150+ wickets at test level and end up averaging 20+ with the bat, bookmark it.

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I agree with you there LtD, although it is still pretty close between the two of them.

Of course, though, if it were up to me neither of them would be playing.

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Just reading the last page, the point is being missed a fair bit.

Victoria can produce players, that wasn't in question, it is the selection of these players in the state side that is the issue.

Victorian selectors undermine their own player development programs by not selecting the mentioned players (or giving them opportunities to excel while in the side) when in form or at times when spots in the test side are available.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Victoria wins a lot because few of their players are international class.

This is turning around lately with inclusions of Siddle, McKay and White, but look at the other players for Victoria, 2/3 of them are possible of playing for Australia, but can't get a game because other state players out play them.

I think this says something about the development and treatment of players there. To have so many talents ignored because of their state is a terrible thing.

It's just because Victorian players are great, but just not quite good enough.

Just reading the last page, the point is being missed a fair bit.

Victoria can produce players, that wasn't in question, it is the selection of these players in the state side that is the issue.

Victorian selectors undermine their own player development programs by not selecting the mentioned players (or giving them opportunities to excel while in the side) when in form or at times when spots in the test side are available.

I don't understand this argument. What development program/s are we talking about?

When it comes down to it I don't think Andrew Hilditch - or for that matter Merv Hughes - cares less about our state system. Hodge, Hussey & others have been good enough to make it but haven't for whatever reason. Other prospects have fallen short. I don't know how having so many borderline players can be attributed to development structures.

My major gripe is that there are too many District ("Premier") teams in our state comp - 16 isn't it? Just like thinning-out of AFL talent will occur with the addition of another two meaningless clubs, the top level in Victoria is hardly elite competition. It should be more cut-throat, which would better prepare the best players, rather than provide opportunity to participate for many who will never make it any further.

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

It is simply "player development" at every level and in what ever form it occurs. It is not about being parochial for the sake of being parochial.

The argument was changing into being about whether Victoria can develop good players - that was never in issue. Actually, it was the development and strangling of good players like Klinger and Crosthwaite that motivated this thread.

Bringing up people like North (Victorians in other states) is an example of the problem and does not support the idea that the Bushrangers are selected well.

The lack of faith and the blind selection occurs when wicket keeper batsmen are played at 8 in the years leading up to Gilchrist's departure, young spinners being given the captaincy prematurly stifling development as a spinner and not picking young batsmen while they are in form.

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I don't understand this argument. What development program/s are we talking about?

When it comes down to it I don't think Andrew Hilditch - or for that matter Merv Hughes - cares less about our state system. Hodge, Hussey & others have been good enough to make it but haven't for whatever reason. Other prospects have fallen short. I don't know how having so many borderline players can be attributed to development structures.

My major gripe is that there are too many District ("Premier") teams in our state comp - 16 isn't it? Just like thinning-out of AFL talent will occur with the addition of another two meaningless clubs, the top level in Victoria is hardly elite competition. It should be more cut-throat, which would better prepare the best players, rather than provide opportunity to participate for many who will never make it any further.

I'm not too sure on the technicalities and details of everything. All I know is that there have been some good arguments put up here and I have sided (some might say unsurprisingly, but this time with good reason) against the Victorian 'system'.

For years they have been a dominant team. Either winning everything or not far from it, and yet they have always had a small turnout in national teams.

Putting all the conspiracy theories aside with 'NSW always getting the baggy green' and 'Victoria always being ignored' and the like, it is obvious that Victoria has had numerous international quality players, but have never made it into the team. This is why they are so dominant, because their top players aren't being picked and as such they have their strongest possible side at all times.

There must be a reason for this happening time and time again. There have been Victorian selectors through the ages, so there is no bias, and still they aren't picked. For a while there I remember a side that included no Victorians, then before that the only Vic was Warnie.

There has to be something wrong somewhere, as to where I can't make that decision on the knowledge that I have. Victoria is soon going to be the most populous state, and the state with already the greatest amount of access to cricket facilities by a long way, especially since the state is so small.

 

[Bruno.V]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Blizzard has gone to South Australia.

So that is three of the most promising cricketers of the last decade who have all left Victoria now. You guys want to start admitting that there is a problem?

I will take my cues from Darren Berry who made it clear that Blizzard has gone because of a lack of faith shown by Victoria who chased Warner. Australia has a history of selecting players and sticking with them. Players like Symonds, Watson, North, Langer and Hauritz have all come good. Victoria like showing this sort of faith on people not even contracted to it.

Victoria has been chasing bright lights, we win tournaments and bring in "ringers" and still don't have a player in the test side who picks himself.

Why do Victorian's even care if inter-state players (who represent Victoria) get seleted for Australia as Bushrangers? They are not VBushrangers, Rogers is a West Australian/New South Welshman and Warner should only ever be regarded as a New South Welshman.

 

[eddiesmith]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

If they arent willing to stick around and earn a spot but instead want to go and do the easy thing, make the redbacks side and never have to perform to keep their spot then thats up to them, but Blizzard is not one of the most promising crickets Victoria has ever had, he is a slogger who very rarely comes off and if not for T20 cricket would probably never have even played for Victoria

Good luck to him, he will get plenty of first class cricket in SA, a long way off in a real cricketing state

 

[brickwaller99]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Reminds me of a certain David Warner.
There are no more good victorians that have missed out or bad ones that have got into the test team than any other state, apart from NSW in the very early days. It's just Siddle is a shining example of someone who shouldn't have played tests and hodge is one that missed out.

 

[Beeswax]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

and as such have developed a new way of using our own players instead of everyone else and are now a much better team. also in the last few years there have been minimal player trading within the team, until this off season where it seems half the team has run away for one reason or another (like mitch going to the warriors to be with his girlfriend in perth).

It would be really nice if he had run off to the Warriors, but due to his other commitments (fair enough he is the hardest worked quick bowler on the planet) he might as well have joined the Mars Maniacs.

He only goes to the WACA if he is on the OZ team bus, though Mickey Arthur seems hopeful of him actually pulling on the Warriors shirt this season. I'll believe it when I see it.

But I agree with the gist of this original post re developing local players. The WA bowling line-up has been a bit of a disgrace really. Thank God for Coulter-Nile winning a spot.

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

It would be really nice if he had run off to the Warriors, but due to his other commitments (fair enough he is the hardest worked quick bowler on the planet) he might as well have joined the Mars Maniacs.

He only goes to the WACA if he is on the OZ team bus, though Mickey Arthur seems hopeful of him actually pulling on the Warriors shirt this season. I'll believe it when I see it.

But I agree with the gist of this original post re developing local players. The WA bowling line-up has been a bit of a disgrace really. Thank God for Coulter-Nile winning a spot.

Johnson is still part of the team though, from whatever distance, and that's what helps out some young players. Even if he turns up once a year, the young players can still see the way one of the best bowlers in the world goes about his craft in whatever way. This is what Bichel is doing now, occasionally turns up to trainings and to some debriefing sessions and the young bowlers can ask him questions. I think Kasper does it as well, and players like Hayden are still around for the Big Bash in the change rooms. Having Kasper and Bichel in the team really helped along Queensland's younger bowlers as they came through, even if they were on International duties. I think Mitch can do the same for WA despite being quite young. Whether or not you actually play doesn't end your relationship with the team I believe.

 

[Beeswax]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Johnson is still part of the team though, from whatever distance, and that's what helps out some young players. Even if he turns up once a year, the young players can still see the way one of the best bowlers in the world goes about his craft in whatever way. This is what Bichel is doing now, occasionally turns up to trainings and to some debriefing sessions and the young bowlers can ask him questions. I think Kasper does it as well, and players like Hayden are still around for the Big Bash in the change rooms. Having Kasper and Bichel in the team really helped along Queensland's younger bowlers as they came through, even if they were on International duties. I think Mitch can do the same for WA despite being quite young. Whether or not you actually play doesn't end your relationship with the team I believe.

I'd be surprised if he is with the squad more than once a year, he's hardly even in Perth as it is, what with playing in all three formats for Oz.

But I am hoping without really believing that he will get a run with the Warriors early season. It would be very good for them also if Mike Hussey could get even just one game as well.

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I'd be surprised if he is with the squad more than once a year, he's hardly even in Perth as it is, what with playing in all three formats for Oz.

But I am hoping without really believing that he will get a run with the Warriors early season. It would be very good for them also if Mike Hussey could get even just one game as well.

Yes, that's true, Johnson is already overworked without having to do extra. It's a good sign he's been pretty much injury free his whole career, but they have to be careful to not overwork him anymore than he is already.

In the last few domestic games Hussey has played (all tour matches for Australia) he has played very well, I think I worked out he was averaging 60 something for them, it's just when he gets to international games he has been faltering a little (in the long form). That would probably suggest to me that if he came back to play for the Warriors he'd have a pretty easy time of it.

 

[Beeswax]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Yes, that's true, Johnson is already overworked without having to do extra. It's a good sign he's been pretty much injury free his whole career, but they have to be careful to not overwork him anymore than he is already.

In the last few domestic games Hussey has played (all tour matches for Australia) he has played very well, I think I worked out he was averaging 60 something for them, it's just when he gets to international games he has been faltering a little (in the long form). That would probably suggest to me that if he came back to play for the Warriors he'd have a pretty easy time of it.

It is mental with Hussey, purely mental. He seems to tighten up in test matches, whereas in one day cricket, anytime, any place, he looks like the man in control.

Technically he is so good, so solid, it is depressing to watch him play tentatively in test cricket.

The warriors could really do with someone with a backbone in their Sheffield line-up. I have this horror that young Mitch Marsh could get warriorised and just turn into a bloody time-server.

 

[Boris]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

It is mental with Hussey, purely mental. He seems to tighten up in test matches, whereas in one day cricket, anytime, any place, he looks like the man in control.

Technically he is so good, so solid, it is depressing to watch him play tentatively in test cricket.

The warriors could really do with someone with a backbone in their Sheffield line-up. I have this horror that young Mitch Marsh could get warriorised and just turn into a bloody time-server.

Hussey looked a lot better in the last couple of Tests (despite the dropped catches against him), but he does seem to score better at the end of a series. Look at the 70 against South Africa, 120 in the last Ashes Tests, and a 130 in the second last Test against Pakistan after a 60 in the last Tests against the Windies. It seems like it takes him time to warm up to everything each individual series. Hopefully he can keep at it this time.

WA has had a lot of good players, and the last two seasons I have been expecting them to be quite competitive, but the opposite has happened.

What's happening with Nofke over there now? He was brilliant not long ago, 58 wickets and 600 runs (only surpassed by Katich who was piling on runs to get back in the Aussie side), then started the next season in the same fashion and then got injured. I think if he hadn't been injured then he would have come into the side after the Clark/Lee injuries as that was two and a bit years of solid performance (his year before was also good) and it was evident he was the best bowler in the domestic scene, let alone him putting his hand up with the bat as well. His injury put him out, then he came back and injured himself again and he was out for longer. When he came back he played a couple of games for the Bulls and was looking reasonable, enough to easily hold his spot.

Then the contract debacle left him the only choice but to change teams, and like most Queenslanders (including me) WA is their second favourite cricketing state, so he searched a contract over there and got it. Then he seems to have fallen off the radar, I'm not sure he's even in the First XI anymore. I followed him for a while and he was going well, but then I follow three teams closely as it is and with WAs departure from being competitive I lost interest and didn't check on him much. What's he at now and what's gone wrong?

 

[Beeswax]

Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Hussey looked a lot better in the last couple of Tests (despite the dropped catches against him), but he does seem to score better at the end of a series. Look at the 70 against South Africa, 120 in the last Ashes Tests, and a 130 in the second last Test against Pakistan after a 60 in the last Tests against the Windies. It seems like it takes him time to warm up to everything each individual series. Hopefully he can keep at it this time.

WA has had a lot of good players, and the last two seasons I have been expecting them to be quite competitive, but the opposite has happened.

What's happening with Nofke over there now? He was brilliant not long ago, 58 wickets and 600 runs (only surpassed by Katich who was piling on runs to get back in the Aussie side), then started the next season in the same fashion and then got injured. I think if he hadn't been injured then he would have come into the side after the Clark/Lee injuries as that was two and a bit years of solid performance (his year before was also good) and it was evident he was the best bowler in the domestic scene, let alone him putting his hand up with the bat as well. His injury put him out, then he came back and injured himself again and he was out for longer. When he came back he played a couple of games for the Bulls and was looking reasonable, enough to easily hold his spot.

Then the contract debacle left him the only choice but to change teams, and like most Queenslanders (including me) WA is their second favourite cricketing state, so he searched a contract over there and got it. Then he seems to have fallen off the radar, I'm not sure he's even in the First XI anymore. I followed him for a while and he was going well, but then I follow three teams closely as it is and with WAs departure from being competitive I lost interest and didn't check on him much. What's he at now and what's gone wrong?

I have no idea what goes on at the Warriors, they seem to take quality players and turn them into schmucks. Moody seemed to not be able to get them going at all. Look at Voges, loads of talent but a chronic underachiever. Shaun Marsh has only recently started scoring runs and that man has all the toys, I'm still not sure about him for international level though. It seems to be problems with the collective temperament or the general team attitude, that is what I mean by getting 'warriorised'.

I wish Noffke had gone somewhere else, he probably would have been knocking at Aus selection again even if only as a fringe player. If Cossy had come to WA, he probably would have ended up about 40 stone, loafing around in the nets and handling the bowling machine for people.

Theo D summed the whole attitude up for me. I heard him sometimes on the local radio and I swear that guy mentally was playing beach cricket when he was in the Warriors colours. It just sounded like all a big joke to him.

Lucky that young Mitch has his Dad to give him rockets or at least I hope so. If he starts to rest on laurels he hasn't even got yet, i will be well pissed off. He may be better served by moving, but hope springs eternal as Arthur surely won't put up with time-wasters.