Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Fleetwood]

Anyone out there - especially those that read books and have some knowledge of wrist-spinnings developmental history. What's the earliest use of the term "Slider" that you're aware of and who was it used by and how did they claim it was executed. On the internet which is obviously full or claims not backed up by any research of any substance or direct connections with 1st class bowlers own practice, there seems to be at least 3 types which random people are describing which have never appeared in any of the books written on the subject. (1). A seam ball where you hold it like a leg break grip, but you don't flick the wrist you just roll it off the 2 'Up' fingers with a bit of back-spin. (2) Same 2 up 2 down wrist spin grip, again no snap/flick of the wrist and this time you don't even drag the fingers down to create back-spin you just 'Palm' it out of the front of the hand a bit like knuckle ball. (3) Which I've only ever seen Jeetan Patel execute and he's finger spinner. He's so precise it seems with his release that he's able to purposefully angle the ball with off-spin that the ball lands on the smooth side and creates the chance that it doesn't spin - it just skids on.

Good question - and I don't have a good answer tbh. I've had a quick look through my various books which has just confirmed that it's not used in any of them *, and I'm pretty sure I first saw it on the internet; the first time I'm sure I heard it was regarding the famous slider-that-wasn't that Warnie bowled to Ian Bell at Lord's in 05.

I'm not a fan of the term really, because it describes what the ball has done, rather than what the bowler has done to produce it.

1). A seam ball where you hold it like a leg break grip, but you don't flick the wrist you just roll it off the 2 'Up' fingers with a bit of back-spin. - I've definitely seen Rashid and I think Yasir Shah bowl a ball like this, but not as a routine variation, just an occasional ploy

(2) Same 2 up 2 down wrist spin grip, again no snap/flick of the wrist and this time you don't even drag the fingers down to create back-spin you just 'Palm' it out of the front of the hand a bit like knuckle ball. This would be the famed "Zooter" - if Warne ever bowled this, I didn't see it, and I've never seen anyone else do it either

(3) Which I've only ever seen Jeetan Patel execute and he's finger spinner. He's so precise it seems with his release that he's able to purposefully angle the ball with off-spin that the ball lands on the smooth side and creates the chance that it doesn't spin - it just skids on. Patel was superb at this, I've seen Swann (called it a flying-saucer ball) , Axar Patel and Ashwin all bowl this - the offies primarily against lefthanders, but Axar bowls it all the time.

I have also heard it used to describe:

• A square legspinner that just doesn't grip, and continues in with the drift
• Orthodox backspinner, as described by Peter Philpott - normal legspin grip but wrist turned round even further than the big legspinner, so the two two fingers come down the back of the ball, imparting legspin and backspin - like the two Warne delvieries in this video: (this vid gets off to a good start but then features topspinners from Afridi & Hogg, shame.
• An actual flipper spun between fingers and thumb
• An arm ball from a fingerspinner, seam up and intended to swing

It seems to be applied to any ball that looks like it's going to turn but doesn't - to be fair, I think it's most often used to describe delivery 1 , which is fine, but I'd still describe as a backspinner to avoid confusion. The last two especially get on my nerves, because these are specific deliveries with recognised names , but some professional commentators can't be bothered to learn about spin - I'm obviously entering grumpy old man territory now.

Warne - No Spin
Wilkins - The Bowler's Art
Philpott - Art of Wristspin
Rajan - Twirly Men
Marriott - The Complete Leg-Break Bowler
Haigh - On Warne

 

[SLA]

the term itself, I'm pretty sure was invented by warne in 2005. It's certainly not mentioned in any book I've read from before that date

The ball he was describing, which is often confused by commentators but was actually analysed in slo mo pretty clearly at the time, is essentially a scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin. Due to his shoulder problems, he bowled it as his main variation from 2005 onwards.

Although warne invented the term, he didn't invent the delivery specifically, only the way it was used as a clever foil to a leg break as part of a leg spinners arsenal. A scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin is basically just a cutter, it's as old as overarm bowling itself

Wikipedia says it comes from doug ring. Ive no idea about that.

I bowl it as a finger spinner. It drifts and floats, but doesn't really dip, turn or bounce. I call it a slider too

 

[Fleetwood]

the term itself, I'm pretty sure was invented by warne in 2005. It's certainly not mentioned in any book I've read from before that date

The ball he was describing, which is often confused by commentators but was actually analysed in slo mo pretty clearly at the time, is essentially a scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin. Due to his shoulder problems, he bowled it as his main variation from 2005 onwards.

Although warne invented the term, he didn't invent the delivery specifically, only the way it was used as a clever foil to a leg break as part of a leg spinners arsenal. A scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin is basically just a cutter, it's as old as overarm bowling itself

Wikipedia says it comes from doug ring. Ive no idea about that.

I bowl it as a finger spinner. It drifts and floats, but doesn't really dip, turn or bounce. I call it a slider too

A Warne coinage would make sense. How are you bowling your fingerspin equivalent - is it an undercut ball, or are you dragging down the back of it? Welcome back to this forum BTW, I've enjoyed your previous posts.

 

[SLA]

A Warne coinage would make sense. How are you bowling your fingerspin equivalent - is it an undercut ball, or are you dragging down the back of it? Welcome back to this forum BTW, I've enjoyed your previous posts.

I play around with both - but the one I think of as my "slider" is the one that I grip and bowl like a regular offbreak but just let it slide out of the front of my hand a little bit at the point of release (so my fingers run more down the back of the ball than perfectly round the side), so there is a bit of sidespin, but not as much as you'd want for a correctly bowled off break.


TBH most newbie off-spinners inadvertently bowl sliders, you have to coach them especially to try to get their fingers more over the top of the ball through release, so that the seam comes out nicely presented rather than scrambled.

 

[doc8176]

I play around with both - but the one I think of as my "slider" is the one that I grip and bowl like a regular offbreak but just let it slide out of the front of my hand a little bit at the point of release (so my fingers run more down the back of the ball than perfectly round the side), so there is a bit of sidespin, but not as much as you'd want for a correctly bowled off break.


TBH most newbie off-spinners inadvertently bowl sliders, you have to coach them especially to try to get their fingers more over the top of the ball through release, so that the seam comes out nicely presented rather than scrambled.

The hardest part of off spin is getting over the top of the ball and being able to do so at a decent pace.

I think the undercutter (side spin) and arm ball (back spin) achieve different things.

The undercutter drifts a little and then maybe skids off the leather of the ball.

The arm ball ideal swings (same direction as your drift) but I find it doesnt skid quite as much as an undercutter because it hits the seam.

 

[SLA]

The hardest part of off spin is getting over the top of the ball and being able to do so at a decent pace.

I think the undercutter (side spin) and arm ball (back spin) achieve different things.

The undercutter drifts a little and then maybe skids off the leather of the ball.

The arm ball ideal swings (same direction as your drift) but I find it doesnt skid quite as much as an undercutter because it hits the seam.

So normally an undercutter has more flying saucer type spin, so it swerves in the air like a normal off break but doesn't dip or bounce as much. *Personally* I find that it still turns just as much as a standard off break - but maybe that's just the way I bowl mine where I get a lot of revs on it. A full, quick, undercutter is probably my main go-to hyper-aggressive delivery if I'm bored of messing around and just want to trying to knock off stump out of the ground.


Both a slider and an arm ball have a mixture of side-spin (ie corkscrew) and backspin. The main difference is that an arm ball is released seam up and is therefore much easier to pick, whereas the slider is deliberately scramble-seamed.

 

[doc8176]

So normally an undercutter has more flying saucer type spin, so it swerves in the air like a normal off break but doesn't dip or bounce as much. *Personally* I find that it still turns just as much as a standard off break - but maybe that's just the way I bowl mine where I get a lot of revs on it. A full, quick, undercutter is probably my main go-to hyper-aggressive delivery if I'm bored of messing around and just want to trying to knock off stump out of the ground.


Both a slider and an arm ball have a mixture of side-spin (ie corkscrew) and backspin. The main difference is that an arm ball is released seam up and is therefore much easier to pick, whereas the slider is deliberately scramble-seamed.

I do also tend to find my undercutter still turns, but that might something to do with me not bowling as fast or on the same surfaces as professional cricketers.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

the term itself, I'm pretty sure was invented by warne in 2005. It's certainly not mentioned in any book I've read from before that date

The ball he was describing, which is often confused by commentators but was actually analysed in slo mo pretty clearly at the time, is essentially a scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin. Due to his shoulder problems, he bowled it as his main variation from 2005 onwards.

Although warne invented the term, he didn't invent the delivery specifically, only the way it was used as a clever foil to a leg break as part of a leg spinners arsenal. A scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin is basically just a cutter, it's as old as overarm bowling itself

Wikipedia says it comes from doug ring. Ive no idea about that.

I bowl it as a finger spinner. It drifts and floats, but doesn't really dip, turn or bounce. I call it a slider too

What! SLA is back! Blimey!

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

the term itself, I'm pretty sure was invented by warne in 2005. It's certainly not mentioned in any book I've read from before that date

The ball he was describing, which is often confused by commentators but was actually analysed in slo mo pretty clearly at the time, is essentially a scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin. Due to his shoulder problems, he bowled it as his main variation from 2005 onwards.

Although warne invented the term, he didn't invent the delivery specifically, only the way it was used as a clever foil to a leg break as part of a leg spinners arsenal. A scrambled seam delivery with a mixture of sidespin and backspin is basically just a cutter, it's as old as overarm bowling itself

Wikipedia says it comes from doug ring. Ive no idea about that.

I bowl it as a finger spinner. It drifts and floats, but doesn't really dip, turn or bounce. I call it a slider too

I'm trying to get hold of the Doug Ring book, that in itself is pretty obscure!

 

[SLA]

What! SLA is back! Blimey!

I changed phones and lost track of my password

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

I changed phones and lost track of my password

I lost mine as well for sometime and never recovered it. I appear on here as a low level contributor as I had to start from fresh.

 

[Liz Ward]

Nobody could ever consider you a low level anything Dave!

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Nobody could ever consider you a low level anything Dave!

Batting for definite!

 

[slingylefty]

Finally, it happened I played my first match of the season yesterday and bowled 3 overs. It was a decent outing. I switched teams this season as I was not getting any opportunities in my previous team. Since this was the first time I ever bowled wrist spin in a match setting, I was pretty nervous. My Captain told me during the 10 over break that I will be bowing the 11th over. The match was evenly poised and there were many negative thoughts swirling in my mind during the break. But I kept saying that I have been bowling well in the nets and just to relax and trust the process. My first ball was a low full toss that went for a single. I did bowl a half tracker that went for a Four and a wide in that over. Ended up giving 12 runs in my first over.
The second over was pretty good. I was surprised by the amount of turn I was getting on a turf wicket. I was able to contain the run flow and ended up with the first wicket of my Leg spin career. The batsman came down the pitch and had an ugly swipe across the line and missed it completely. He got bowled. I could have gotten another wicket next ball as the new batsman totally missed the ball. But it bounced a little too much and missed the middle stump. Gave only 3 runs in that over. I was also operating with another wrist spinner (right arm) and he was in his zone mixing deliveries. Together, we took 3 wickets and contained the flow of runs in 4 overs.
This is where I think my Cap did a tactical error. Instead of continuing me for the 3rd over, he brought back the medium pacer who bowled a lot of extras previously. His over went for 21 runs and momentum totally shifted in their favor. I understand that he was keeping both the wrist spinners for the last overs but it was always a risky play. My Captain brought himself too but was dispatched for 15 runs. The 15th and 16th overs were bad.
When I came back for my 3rd over, the RRR was below 6 and they simply played it safe by taking singles and doubles. There was a tough catching opportunity in this over but the fielder did not even attempt. Ended up with figures of 3-0-22-1.
I am taking a lot of positives from this even though we lost the match. I did not try the wrong one as I was too afraid to try. I will try it in the coming matches. I bowled a couple of top spinners yesterday. Turns out that I am the only left arm wrist spinner (china man) in my league and it already generated a bit of intrigue Looking forward to a busy 2026 season. Will keep you guys posted on my progress.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Finally, it happened I played my first match of the season yesterday and bowled 3 overs. It was a decent outing. I switched teams this season as I was not getting any opportunities in my previous team. Since this was the first time I ever bowled wrist spin in a match setting, I was pretty nervous. My Captain told me during the 10 over break that I will be bowing the 11th over. The match was evenly poised and there were many negative thoughts swirling in my mind during the break. But I kept saying that I have been bowling well in the nets and just to relax and trust the process. My first ball was a low full toss that went for a single. I did bowl a half tracker that went for a Four and a wide in that over. Ended up giving 12 runs in my first over.
The second over was pretty good. I was surprised by the amount of turn I was getting on a turf wicket. I was able to contain the run flow and ended up with the first wicket of my Leg spin career. The batsman came down the pitch and had an ugly swipe across the line and missed it completely. He got bowled. I could have gotten another wicket next ball as the new batsman totally missed the ball. But it bounced a little too much and missed the middle stump. Gave only 3 runs in that over. I was also operating with another wrist spinner (right arm) and he was in his zone mixing deliveries. Together, we took 3 wickets and contained the flow of runs in 4 overs.
This is where I think my Cap did a tactical error. Instead of continuing me for the 3rd over, he brought back the medium pacer who bowled a lot of extras previously. His over went for 21 runs and momentum totally shifted in their favor. I understand that he was keeping both the wrist spinners for the last overs but it was always a risky play. My Captain brought himself too but was dispatched for 15 runs. The 15th and 16th overs were bad.
When I came back for my 3rd over, the RRR was below 6 and they simply played it safe by taking singles and doubles. There was a tough catching opportunity in this over but the fielder did not even attempt. Ended up with figures of 3-0-22-1.
I am taking a lot of positives from this even though we lost the match. I did not try the wrong one as I was too afraid to try. I will try it in the coming matches. I bowled a couple of top spinners yesterday. Turns out that I am the only left arm wrist spinner (china man) in my league and it already generated a bit of intrigue Looking forward to a busy 2026 season. Will keep you guys posted on my progress.

Sounds good for your first outing. I don't play much T20, but watching it, a lot of spinners go for runs. An economy of 7.33 and a strike rate of 18 is a reasonable start. Conversely others do really well in this format. I've been watching Allanah King a lot of late - plotting her approach and what she does, as everyone says that she's the best in the world in short format games among the women. I prefer women's cricket in a lot of ways as it looks like the cricket I play and see at my club and I feel there's potentially more to learn from watching them. International mens cricket is just off the scale and is in a realm of its own. Where I net sometimes I get to see Essex (County players) batting and it's like watching Prometheus with a bat! Kings T20 figures are... Ave 18.81 Econ 6.49 SR 17.3. So given how nervous you may have been that's a result I'd say. I don't know if you obsess about figures, but it's probably not the best thing to do at the start of your transition as you're probably going to get smashed some games and other games you'll do well. Be nice if there's lots of LH bats in your league.

I've still got 45-50 days before we start playing here in the UK, but we're netting at the moment, but I'm doing it with real intent. I speak to the batters and explain where I'd set my field and try and get them to play accordingly and say when they've got it wrong and would have been caught. I then go about getting them out within 18 balls. So far none of them have got beyond 6 balls, but at the moment I'm avoiding people like my son whose faced me all his life and can take me to task and the first team players. Although I bowled 5 in the first team team against one bloke, didn't get him in those five, but after he conceded I'd bowled well saying that it was the height above the eyes and the dip he was struggling with. This is all in-line with improving my strike rate as I'm currently the 2nd best among the spinners behind our 1st team pro who has a strike rate of 12!

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Anyone watching the Australia v India womens test and the previous ODI and T20's? What do you reckon to Kings bowling?

 

[SLA]

Sounds good for your first outing. I don't play much T20, but watching it, a lot of spinners go for runs. An economy of 7.33 and a strike rate of 18 is a reasonable start. Conversely others do really well in this format. I've been watching Allanah King a lot of late - plotting her approach and what she does, as everyone says that she's the best in the world in short format games among the women. I prefer women's cricket in a lot of ways as it looks like the cricket I play and see at my club and I feel there's potentially more to learn from watching them. International mens cricket is just off the scale and is in a realm of its own. Where I net sometimes I get to see Essex (County players) batting and it's like watching Prometheus with a bat! Kings T20 figures are... Ave 18.81 Econ 6.49 SR 17.3. So given how nervous you may have been that's a result I'd say. I don't know if you obsess about figures, but it's probably not the best thing to do at the start of your transition as you're probably going to get smashed some games and other games you'll do well. Be nice if there's lots of LH bats in your league.

I've still got 45-50 days before we start playing here in the UK, but we're netting at the moment, but I'm doing it with real intent. I speak to the batters and explain where I'd set my field and try and get them to play accordingly and say when they've got it wrong and would have been caught. I then go about getting them out within 18 balls. So far none of them have got beyond 6 balls, but at the moment I'm avoiding people like my son whose faced me all his life and can take me to task and the first team players. Although I bowled 5 in the first team team against one bloke, didn't get him in those five, but after he conceded I'd bowled well saying that it was the height above the eyes and the dip he was struggling with. This is all in-line with improving my strike rate as I'm currently the 2nd best among the spinners behind our 1st team pro who has a strike rate of 12!

Agree about women's cricket


Mens tests wil always be the best to watch but if it's T20 I'd definitely rather watch the women

 

[slingylefty]

Sounds good for your first outing. I don't play much T20, but watching it, a lot of spinners go for runs. An economy of 7.33 and a strike rate of 18 is a reasonable start. Conversely others do really well in this format. I've been watching Allanah King a lot of late - plotting her approach and what she does, as everyone says that she's the best in the world in short format games among the women. I prefer women's cricket in a lot of ways as it looks like the cricket I play and see at my club and I feel there's potentially more to learn from watching them. International mens cricket is just off the scale and is in a realm of its own. Where I net sometimes I get to see Essex (County players) batting and it's like watching Prometheus with a bat! Kings T20 figures are... Ave 18.81 Econ 6.49 SR 17.3. So given how nervous you may have been that's a result I'd say. I don't know if you obsess about figures, but it's probably not the best thing to do at the start of your transition as you're probably going to get smashed some games and other games you'll do well. Be nice if there's lots of LH bats in your league.

I've still got 45-50 days before we start playing here in the UK, but we're netting at the moment, but I'm doing it with real intent. I speak to the batters and explain where I'd set my field and try and get them to play accordingly and say when they've got it wrong and would have been caught. I then go about getting them out within 18 balls. So far none of them have got beyond 6 balls, but at the moment I'm avoiding people like my son whose faced me all his life and can take me to task and the first team players. Although I bowled 5 in the first team team against one bloke, didn't get him in those five, but after he conceded I'd bowled well saying that it was the height above the eyes and the dip he was struggling with. This is all in-line with improving my strike rate as I'm currently the 2nd best among the spinners behind our 1st team pro who has a strike rate of 12!

I've been watching Allanah King a lot of late - plotting her approach and what she does, as everyone says that she's the best in the world in short format games among the women.

Yeah! She is very good. I watched her masterclass video and she really keeps it simple and sticks to the basics. She nails all of these basics like wrist snap, hip rotation, making the batsman play her length etc. Very much Warne-like.

I'm doing it with real intent. I speak to the batters and explain where I'd set my field and try and get them to play accordingly and say when they've got it wrong and would have been caught

I started doing this and this also helps the batsman in planning their strokes. Because my ball comes into a RHB as an offspinner, pretty much every batsman I bowl to tries to play across the line and whack it to the cow corner. And if I drag it down the leg stump, they try to hoick the ball between deep square leg and fine leg. These are the 2 positions I absolutely ensure to have in my mind when setting the field. Very few batsmen in my division tend to really get to the pitch of the ball and play off side.
I sometimes bowl to the higher division players in my league at the nets and the difference in skill level is stark. Batsmen there usually play a wide variety of shots and most often use their feet very well. It is very difficult to bowl to them as they can play 2-3 shots for the same ball (cover drive or switch hit or cut). This is where variations become very important for a leg spinner.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

S slingylefty "I sometimes bowl to the higher division players in my league at the nets and the difference in skill level is stark. Batsmen there usually play a wide variety of shots and most often use their feet very well. It is very difficult to bowl to them as they can play 2-3 shots for the same ball (cover drive or switch hit or cut). This is where variations become very important for a leg spinner".

Yeah that's for sure! I'm doing the same - trying to bowl at the 1st and 2nd XI players. So far it's going OK. Do you find that if you bowl at lower order batters - especially kids, they just go for it and bat in unorthodox ways. I bowled at a bloke who's only recently started playing (2 years) and he's working on becoming a batter, but he bats in a high-risk unorthodox manner and like the kids I go for runs off him and took 13 balls before I got him which is disappointing because those 13 balls would have cost me 17 or more runs potentially based on my field settings.

 

[slingylefty]

S slingylefty "I sometimes bowl to the higher division players in my league at the nets and the difference in skill level is stark. Batsmen there usually play a wide variety of shots and most often use their feet very well. It is very difficult to bowl to them as they can play 2-3 shots for the same ball (cover drive or switch hit or cut). This is where variations become very important for a leg spinner".

Yeah that's for sure! I'm doing the same - trying to bowl at the 1st and 2nd XI players. So far it's going OK. Do you find that if you bowl at lower order batters - especially kids, they just go for it and bat in unorthodox ways. I bowled at a bloke who's only recently started playing (2 years) and he's working on becoming a batter, but he bats in a high-risk unorthodox manner and like the kids I go for runs off him and took 13 balls before I got him which is disappointing because those 13 balls would have cost me 17 or more runs potentially based on my field setting

Do you find that if you bowl at lower order batters - especially kids, they just go for it and bat in unorthodox ways

Yes! I recently bowled to an younger bloke and the first shot he played was a switch hit. He then followed up with a paddle sweep. He moved across the crease too much that it was very difficult for me to pick a line. After a couple of shots, I slowed down the ball even more and gave more flight and he ended up getting top edges. But yeah, this is something I need to be aware of playing the T20 game. Lot of batsmen are now playing unorthodox shots and if they connect a couple of balls cleanly in an over, you will be looking at a 10+ run over. This is why it is important to be attacking with leg spin. My fellow leggie bowls a faster ball whenever he gets hit but that in a way is playing in the hands of the batsman. Batsmen can easily spot that pattern and prepare for the faster one.