Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Leggy88]

Ok 2 things I noticed:

1. Your run-up: you jog in, then stop and then really fling yourself in your action (3 phases), I think the problem being that you pause on the back foot a lot, try and keep your momentum forward and a lot of professionals say to spend as little time on the back foot as possible. If you can try to make it 1 or 2 "phases" instead of 3, so either jog/walk in and then fly into your action or put a lot into the whole action and run-up.

Try not to ruin your bowling by screwing your run up tho.

2. I took a photo from each stand-still and run-up video and have attached them.

Stand-still 1 and Run-up 1 are both taken with your Arm at about 90-135˚

Stand-still 2 and Run-up 2 are both taken with your Arm at about 0˚.

Stand still 1 Run-up 1 Stand-still 2 Run-up 2
View attachment 1680View attachment 1683View attachment 1681View attachment 1682

Wow, that makes a lot of sense actually, thanks. My action is not smooth as you said, with the stop taking away all momentum and I assume leading to decreases in accuracy, pace and revs. Will try walking in and then smoothly jumping into the delivery stride. I'll also try the quicker walk in option as you said.

Do you think my bowling arm needs to be a bit more roundarm? Right now it is pretty high so I think that could also be affecting the spin I get negatively. I think my high bowling arm could also be caused by my problems with the back foot as you pointed out? I've noticed that everything in the action is linked, so maybe if I fix the back foot it could have a flow on effect and improve all aspects of my action.

Notice your back leg on the run up ones, I have/had a similar problem except my front foot would swing across too far and your back foot just gets planted too far back. Either way it makes you have to pivot too far and makes your weight go towards fine leg more than the stumps.

So you basically think that the back foot and front foot are too far apart in the delivery stride with the run up, along with the back foot being too far to the right of my front foot (if you look at it with the perspective from the run up bowling image you sent). Am I right here or did I misinterpret something?

The weight towards fine leg thing makes sense to me for sure, as I have found that I am bowling most of my bad balls down the legside.

I'll get to work in the next couple of sessions working on making my bowling runup to delivery stride more smooth and working on the backfoot placement. Will update you guys with how it goes.

 

[doc8176]

Wow, that makes a lot of sense actually, thanks. My action is not smooth as you said, with the stop taking away all momentum and I assume leading to decreases in accuracy, pace and revs. Will try walking in and then smoothly jumping into the delivery stride. I'll also try the quicker walk in option as you said.

Do you think my bowling arm needs to be a bit more roundarm? Right now it is pretty high so I think that could also be affecting the spin I get negatively. I think my high bowling arm could also be caused by my problems with the back foot as you pointed out? I've noticed that everything in the action is linked, so maybe if I fix the back foot it could have a flow on effect and improve all aspects of my action.



So you basically think that the back foot and front foot are too far apart in the delivery stride with the run up, along with the back foot being too far to the right of my front foot (if you look at it with the perspective from the run up bowling image you sent). Am I right here or did I misinterpret something?

The weight towards fine leg thing makes sense to me for sure, as I have found that I am bowling most of my bad balls down the legside.

I'll get to work in the next couple of sessions working on making my bowling runup to delivery stride more smooth and working on the backfoot placement. Will update you guys with how it goes.

I don't think you NEED to get more round-arm. It does get you more side spin, but it does make it harder to get overspin on the ball.

Some examples:

Leggies with big turn:
1. Stuart McGill 2. Shane Warne

Leggies with little turn and use more top spin and flight:
1. Adam Zampa 2. Anil Kumble

This weirdo:
Peter Hatzoglou

You:
Leggy88


Your arm is actual actually at a very OK angle, if you're looking for dip, flight and bounce and not so much turn. If you are looking for big turn then yes you could make yourself more round arm. And yes I think your arm was actually slightly over your head on the run up ones, so it would make a difference. You would actually have to make an effort to change it more than a little bit though.

Back foot being too far to the right of my front foot (if you look at it with the perspective from the run up bowling image you sent).

This is exactly what I mean, not sure what you meant by the first bit though. If this makes sense your feet should "ideally" land with your back toes in line with your front foot which is in line with where you're aiming, assuming your back foot lands facing towards square leg (doesn't have to). It doesn't really have to be exact, do whatever is more comfortable to you, but currently your foot is TOO far to the right.

I'd go to the nets and record some videos of my spinning but scatter gun leggies with different arm angles and stuff but I'm in Aus and its just started raining (Autumn )

 

[Leggy88]

I don't think you NEED to get more round-arm. It does get you more side spin, but it does make it harder to get overspin on the ball.

Some examples:

Leggies with big turn:
1. Stuart McGill 2. Shane Warne
View attachment 1686View attachment 1687
Leggies with little turn and use more top spin and flight:
1. Adam Zampa 2. Anil Kumble
View attachment 1688View attachment 1689
This weirdo:
Peter Hatzoglou
View attachment 1690
You:
Leggy88
View attachment 1691

Your arm is actual actually at a very OK angle, if you're looking for dip, flight and bounce and not so much turn. If you are looking for big turn then yes you could make yourself more round arm. And yes I think your arm was actually slightly over your head on the run up ones, so it would make a difference. You would actually have to make an effort to change it more than a little bit though.

This is exactly what I mean, not sure what you meant by the first bit though. If this makes sense your feet should "ideally" land with your back toes in line with your front foot which is in line with where you're aiming, assuming your back foot lands facing towards square leg (doesn't have to). It doesn't really have to be exact, do whatever is more comfortable to you, but currently your foot is TOO far to the right.

I'd go to the nets and record some videos of my spinning but scatter gun leggies with different arm angles and stuff but I'm in Aus and its just started raining (Autumn )

Yeah, I think I might just see if I can lower the bowling arm a touch - just so it is at like, the 11:30/11:45 clock angle rather than the 12:00 angle it is now. Should give me a touch more turn without losing the dip, flight and bounce. Yes, I agree that my back foot is definitely too far to the right and it is probably the cause of all my problems right now. First priority is fixing that.

Yeah, I'm in Australia too actually, although in my part we have had good weather of late. How'd you go in the past season?

What I meant in the first bit was length or width of delivery stride - but then I saw these pictures and figured a long delivery stride is good.

Also about Peter Hatzoglou - good video on him lately:
He gets a ton of drift when I watch him in the big bash - batsmen play him like an inswing bowler, yet for some reason he doesn't turn it with all that drift. Maybe because of the high arm?

 

[doc8176]

Just a comparison video of my action just over a month ago, I have changed it slightly since then. Also its a shit video, I was in a rush and my phone didn't focus lol.

Take a look at my bowling arm and back foot. Granted off-spinners want to get their bowling arm as high as possible where leg spinners can bowl with a lower arm. But you can definitely see my front foot go across a bit and the smaller (still maybe slightly too big) gap between my feet.
View attachment IMG_5562.MOV

 

[Leggy88]

Just a comparison video of my action just over a month ago, I have changed it slightly since then. Also its a shit video, I was in a rush and my phone didn't focus lol.

Take a look at my bowling arm and back foot. Granted off-spinners want to get their bowling arm as high as possible where leg spinners can bowl with a lower arm. But you can definitely see my front foot go across a bit and the smaller (still maybe slightly too big) gap between my feet.
View attachment 1694

Yeah, although I do think leg spinners should have a bigger gap between feet in the delivery stride (as shown by shane and yasir above), but I certainly see that I need to bring my front and back foot more in line instead of my front foot being way too far across.

Looks like you have a decent action - nice drift, dip and turn on that one too.

 

[doc8176]

Yeah, I think I might just see if I can lower the bowling arm a touch - just so it is at like, the 11:30/11:45 clock angle rather than the 12:00 angle it is now. Should give me a touch more turn without losing the dip, flight and bounce. Yes, I agree that my back foot is definitely too far to the right and it is probably the cause of all my problems right now. First priority is fixing that.

Yeah, I'm in Australia too actually, although in my part we have had good weather of late. How'd you go in the past season?

What I meant in the first bit was length or width of delivery stride - but then I saw these pictures and figured a long delivery stride is good. View attachment 1692View attachment 1693

Also about Peter Hatzoglou - good video on him lately:
He gets a ton of drift when I watch him in the big bash - batsmen play him like an inswing bowler, yet for some reason he doesn't turn it with all that drift. Maybe because of the high arm?

Your first priority should be that foot yeah. But it probably wouldn't hurt lowering your bowling arm a fraction.

It is difficult to see the width of your delivery stride in the videos you sent but just from how your body pivoted and stuff I think its fine.

I think Peter can actually put a lot of side spin on the ball but I think he bowls it with such a 90˚ seam and bowls so fast that it can't turn, but it does drift even more than usual (physics stuff).

I had a pretty meh season, I find it hard to bowl on syntho to bad batsmen because I'm fairly tall and get a ton of bounce so most batsmen can just sit back and pull me. LOVE bowling to lefties regardless of how good they are tho. Im supposed to go up from our E/C grade sides to A grade for next season so i should be against better batsmen on turf. Should be a steep learning curve but I've heard good things about spin on turf, I also bowl better to better batsmen.

 

[doc8176]

Yeah, although I do think leg spinners should have a bigger gap between feet in the delivery stride (as shown by shane and yasir above), but I certainly see that I need to bring my front and back foot more in line instead of my front foot being way too far across.

Looks like you have a decent action - nice drift, dip and turn on that one too.

Yeah I think so too, because you can get the round-arm having a wider gap tends to help with that kind of motion rather than an off-spinners "up and over" arm motion.

I find I usually don't get a ton of drift on my stock ball, I get more dip and turn. Good to hear someone else say that because I find it hard to notice any drift on my bowling.

 

[Leggy88]

Your first priority should be that foot yeah. But it probably wouldn't hurt lowering your bowling arm a fraction.

It is difficult to see the width of your delivery stride in the videos you sent but just from how your body pivoted and stuff I think its fine.

I think Peter can actually put a lot of side spin on the ball but I think he bowls it with such a 90˚ seam and bowls so fast that it can't turn, but it does drift even more than usual (physics stuff).

I had a pretty meh season, I find it hard to bowl on syntho to bad batsmen because I'm fairly tall and get a ton of bounce so most batsmen can just sit back and pull me. LOVE bowling to lefties regardless of how good they are tho. Im supposed to go up from our E/C grade sides to A grade for next season so i should be against better batsmen on turf. Should be a steep learning curve but I've heard good things about spin on turf, I also bowl better to better batsmen.

Yep, agreed, gonna work on the foot and the arm together.

True, the faster you bowl the easier it may be to get drift - look at shahid afridi.

Yeah, I hated bowling on syntho. Good luck going to A grade. You will love bowling on turf, for the past three seasons I have played on turf but trained on syntho, so I know a lot about the two. Essentially most turf pitches will turn much more, some will turn using more overspin, some will turn using more sidespin. Some will turn with anything. Whereas I find on syntho you need more topspin to get any turn. Additionally, you will no longer be easily cut and pulled by batsmen on turf as the ball bounces much less. Looks like your bowling would be well suited to turf. Occasionally you can also get some good footmarks on turf pitches which are always a joy to bowl on.

To put it in perspective, on syntho I turn it around 10 centimetres when it comes out well - on turf, that would be 30 centimetres.

 

[Leggy88]

Yeah I think so too, because you can get the round-arm having a wider gap tends to help with that kind of motion rather than an off-spinners "up and over" arm motion.

I find I usually don't get a ton of drift on my stock ball, I get more dip and turn. Good to hear someone else say that because I find it hard to notice any drift on my bowling.

Yeah, it's hard for offies going over the wicket to get drift especially as the ball has to drift against the angle. Whereas leggies drift from over the wicket goes with the angle and therefore has a bigger effect.

 

[doc8176]

Yeah, it's hard for offies going over the wicket to get drift especially as the ball has to drift against the angle. Whereas leggies drift from over the wicket goes with the angle and therefore has a bigger effect.

Yeah I can bowl some decent leg spin that drifts and turns quite a bit, definitely easier to get/notice any drift.

I'm convinced my off-spin sometimes gets newer balls to actually swing in to a right hander when I get my seam position right lol.

 

[Leggy88]

Yeah I can bowl some decent leg spin that drifts and turns quite a bit, definitely easier to get/notice any drift.

I'm convinced I sometimes get newer balls to actually swing in to a right hander when I get my seam position right lol.

Damn, now that is something to think about. Is it possible for a ball with topspin to swing? It must be as I have seen this as well in a few other bowlers. Not myself though.

 

[doc8176]

Damn, now that is something to think about. Is it possible for a ball with topspin to swing? It must be as I have seen this as well in a few other bowlers. Not myself though.

Must just have to have a good seam presentation at the right speed, not much drift.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Ok 2 things I noticed:

1. Your run-up: you jog in, then stop and then really fling yourself in your action (3 phases), I think the problem being that you pause on the back foot a lot, try and keep your momentum forward and a lot of professionals say to spend as little time on the back foot as possible. If you can try to make it 1 or 2 "phases" instead of 3, so either jog/walk in and then fly into your action or put a lot into the whole action and run-up.

Try not to ruin your bowling by screwing your run up tho.

2. I took a photo from each stand-still and run-up video and have attached them.

Stand-still 1 and Run-up 1 are both taken with your Arm at about 90-135˚

Stand-still 2 and Run-up 2 are both taken with your Arm at about 0˚.

Stand still 1 Run-up 1 Stand-still 2 Run-up 2
View attachment 1680View attachment 1683View attachment 1681View attachment 1682
Notice your back leg on the run up ones, I have/had a similar problem except my front foot would swing across too far and your back foot just gets planted too far back. Either way it makes you have to pivot too far and makes your weight go towards fine leg more than the stumps.

The back foot would be your main problem, I've found it quite hard to fix personally but its actually pretty easy, you just have to be willing to do actual target training rather than trying to change shit while you're bowling lol.

Thats all I noticed. Stand-still 2 is a great ball btw if thats the one you were talking about.

Hope you aren't on mobile because the images might be confusing, if you are they're in the order I listed them.

Yeah, my feedback would be to maybe work on developing a conventional action through the crease as at the moment you jump off the wrong foot like Titch Freeman and many other bowlers. I think I've mentioned this before? I did it for years and then decided that I needed to change it. It took a couple of sessions of practice to change it and it made a positive difference in the longer run. Maybe considering looking at this over the winter?

Other than that in the short term, I think you're being too analytical in terms of only just having learned how to bowl it. I also wouldn't encourage comparing the stand start action with your actual running in bowling action in this instance. I would just recommend persevering with the Flipper using your usual run-up and not worry about how well you can disguise it, but just work on developing a good line and length and just let the ball do whatever it does through the air and off the wicket and think of these things as natural variation. I wouldn't get over-excited about whether the ball breaks one way or the other - just focus on the line and length and as Peter Philpott says page 52-56 total focus when practicing - every ball with the same intention - line and length in your instance with the Flipper. If you've got the book it might be well worth having a quick read!

 

[Darth Spin]

Filmed some leggies and flippers today - thoughts? Any tips for helping the flipper come out faster? Also I find I can bowl really well from a standing start, getting tons of turn, drift and dip (as shown in one of the clips) but I can't really convert this to a run up for some reason, where it doesn't seem I get as much turn. Anyhow what do you guys think of the flipper in particular? I've filmed one from a standing start and one from a run up. Same for the leggies.

I like them all mate, I don't think the flipper needs to be any faster than that.

It took me ages to get my flipper to where it is now, but I think most of that was just doing it hand to hand. I think that's the best way of making the flipper better, just practicing the finger click release. Mine also got better when I did press ups and toned up a bit.

 

[Leggy88]

Yeah, my feedback would be to maybe work on developing a conventional action through the crease as at the moment you jump off the wrong foot like Titch Freeman and many other bowlers. I think I've mentioned this before? I did it for years and then decided that I needed to change it. It took a couple of sessions of practice to change it and it made a positive difference in the longer run. Maybe considering looking at this over the winter?

Other than that in the short term, I think you're being too analytical in terms of only just having learned how to bowl it. I also wouldn't encourage comparing the stand start action with your actual running in bowling action in this instance. I would just recommend persevering with the Flipper using your usual run-up and not worry about how well you can disguise it, but just work on developing a good line and length and just let the ball do whatever it does through the air and off the wicket and think of these things as natural variation. I wouldn't get over-excited about whether the ball breaks one way or the other - just focus on the line and length and as Peter Philpott says page 52-56 total focus when practicing - every ball with the same intention - line and length in your instance with the Flipper. If you've got the book it might be well worth having a quick read!

Yeah true, I have done the skip for a while now.I’ll have to try slowing everything down and maybe adding a hurdle or two in the right place so the skip can be fixed.
Definitely gonna persevere with the flipper, I bowled some really promising deliveries with it I just my 2nd session trying it.

phillpots book should arrive in a coupledays now, I ordered it a week ago.

 

[Leggy88]

I like them all mate, I don't think the flipper needs to be any faster than that.

It took me ages to get my flipper to where it is now, but I think most of that was just doing it hand to hand. I think that's the best way of making the flipper better, just practicing the finger click release. Mine also got better when I did press ups and toned up a bit.

Cheers, yeah I do think the hardest thing about the flipper is getting the timing of the “flip” and release at the same time. So yeah, flicking it from hand to hand should be very beneficial.

 

[doc8176]

Something I’ve been thinking about is how important being able to read a batsman is.

Like picking up on subtle hints like how hard they’re tapping their bat, ok, they’re really smacking the floor, they’re going to try and hit me back over my head.

Combined with the knowledge of how to counteract what they’re trying to do.

So if I see someone really tapping their bat hard or loading up a lot then I’ll maybe throw a slower, straight (arm ball), wide of the stumps and if they try and step down there’s a decent chance they’ll get stumped.

Ik it’s a pretty fundamental concept but it’s just something I’ve noticed myself really developing now that I have the ability to consistently execute what I’m trying to bowl. And it’s been making all the difference against the sloggers and big hitters at the nets, I’m getting much better at out thinking and actually out bowling the batsman instead of just pitching it on a good spot and waiting for them to make a mistake or just start smacking me (it was mostly the latter).

I’ve actually largely stopped using any fancy variations like the carrom ball and front of the hand except for my arm balls because they’re so easy to bowl and get the job done. I find just changing pace, line, length and even the amount of overspin I put on the ball does the same thing except more accurately and much harder for the batsman to detect.

 

[Leggy88]

Something I’ve been thinking about is how important being able to read a batsman is.

Like picking up on subtle hints like how hard they’re tapping their bat, ok, they’re really smacking the floor, they’re going to try and hit me back over my head.

Combined with the knowledge of how to counteract what they’re trying to do.

So if I see someone really tapping their bat hard or loading up a lot then I’ll maybe throw a slower, straight (arm ball), wide of the stumps and if they try and step down there’s a decent chance they’ll get stumped.

Ik it’s a pretty fundamental concept but it’s just something I’ve noticed myself really developing now that I have the ability to consistently execute what I’m trying to bowl. And it’s been making all the difference against the sloggers and big hitters at the nets, I’m getting much better at out thinking and actually out bowling the batsman instead of just pitching it on a good spot and waiting for them to make a mistake or just start smacking me (it was mostly the latter).

I’ve actually largely stopped using any fancy variations like the carrom ball and front of the hand except for my arm balls because they’re so easy to bowl and get the job done. I find just changing pace, line, length and even the amount of overspin I put on the ball does the same thing except more accurately and much harder for the batsman to detect.

For sure. Stuff like figuring out if they are reading the spin from the pitch or the hand as well.
Yeah, your stock standard bowl should have tons of different variations as you said, faster, slower, overspin, sidespin, flatter, loopier, etc.

 

[doc8176]

TIL trying to bowl full tilt off a limited run up (indoor nets) after not bowling for a month is a really good way make myself very sore.

Most of my back from my left hip to right shoulder is just muscle ache lol.

The indoor nets were good though, it’s a new place so the syntho was nice and thick so it had some grip and played really slow. I bowled off spin like shit because I’m rusty but decided to send down some leggies with the bowling machine balls and I was getting them to pitch on a length on middle and go past the wide line at head height. Fun stuff.

 

[Leggy88]

TIL trying to bowl full tilt off a limited run up (indoor nets) after not bowling for a month is a really good way make myself very sore.

Most of my back from my left hip to right shoulder is just muscle ache lol.

The indoor nets were good though, it’s a new place so the syntho was nice and thick so it had some grip and played really slow. I bowled off spin like shit because I’m rusty but decided to send down some leggies with the bowling machine balls and I was getting them to pitch on a length on middle and go past the wide line at head height. Fun stuff.

Yeah, whenever I bowl for the first time in a while my chest gets super sore, my forearms, biceps, the right side of my back, calves, even my neck gets sore. Bowling really is a full body thing - just doesn't include the left side of the upper body much though as I find it is never sore.

Bowled a bit more today and I found that for some reason when I try and have a faster arm action, the ball comes out slower with more revs, turn, drift and dip? I discovered this when I was bowling to a mate who doesn't play cricket and I wanted to suprise him with a quick ball but instead it looped up at my usual pace (about 70km so decently fast) and spun and bounced more than anything I had bowled previously. I then bowled the rest of the session like that and it came out a treat. Will have to see if this works for future sessions, I certainly hope so.

Why do you guys think a faster arm action doesn't make the ball faster, but instead give it more revs?