Australian Cricket Team Discussions
- Thread starter el-capitano
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distributer of pain
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Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
Agreed, good state player, very nice average but only the 1 ton out of 11 digs and 2 not outs as well, if he didnt get that 200 id hate to see his average, getting on in years. capable, but id prefer they keep an eye on the future.
Agreed, good state player, very nice average but only the 1 ton out of 11 digs and 2 not outs as well, if he didnt get that 200 id hate to see his average, getting on in years. capable, but id prefer they keep an eye on the future.
Mousey
New Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
While average can be a good stat, it, like the amount of disposals in AFL football, can be deceiving.
For example players like Michael Slater averaged just 42 or 43 but still played 75 odd tests. Michael Clarke's first class average was about 40 when he was given a spot in the Aussie side. It's based on potential.
Another example is Archie Jackson. He is widely considered to be the second best batsman of all time and some believe he was better than Bradman. He, though, only had a First Class average of 45.
While average can be a good stat, it, like the amount of disposals in AFL football, can be deceiving.
For example players like Michael Slater averaged just 42 or 43 but still played 75 odd tests. Michael Clarke's first class average was about 40 when he was given a spot in the Aussie side. It's based on potential.
Another example is Archie Jackson. He is widely considered to be the second best batsman of all time and some believe he was better than Bradman. He, though, only had a First Class average of 45.
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
i just looked up the dons 1st class average, 335 innings and 28.000 runs at 95, thats probably more impressive than his test average in my book, we wont see the likes of him again.
i just looked up the dons 1st class average, 335 innings and 28.000 runs at 95, thats probably more impressive than his test average in my book, we wont see the likes of him again.
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Who is hopeless?
Ok, I get it. Stats don't lie: they only get twisted round by those who use them.
Just when I thought there might be some modicum of intelligence in this discussion, we've hit a brick wall. So the "El-Capitano method" of credible statistical evaluation sets a minimum qualification standard of 20 Tests? Make all you like before that, and it won't count. Anything beyond, and the figures are all that matter. RIP: subjective analysis.
Do we go back to the McGain argument and say that we can't pay attention to those woeful figures because he doesn't yet have an average? In 38 Tests, Simon Katich boasts a bowling average under 30. Does this put him up there as an elite Australian spin bowler or even one of our great all-rounders?
Since some of the subscibers to this discussion are incapable of perceptive reasoning, would anyone care to enlighten me as to why Hodge is "a dud" having played only 6 Tests for an average of almost 56, backed up by a (prolonged) First Class average of 48?
Maybe Mike Hussey's early inflated average was something to be wary of, and his recent slump proves that the selectors should have got rid of him back then? Or was Mark Waugh's career a sham because his average never got above the low 40's?
Careful, no lying!
el-capitano;340859 said:Stats don't lie- Hodges has only played 6 test matches- most standards call up at least 20 innings before they qualify- so yeah- Hodge doesn't make it!
Ok, I get it. Stats don't lie: they only get twisted round by those who use them.
Just when I thought there might be some modicum of intelligence in this discussion, we've hit a brick wall. So the "El-Capitano method" of credible statistical evaluation sets a minimum qualification standard of 20 Tests? Make all you like before that, and it won't count. Anything beyond, and the figures are all that matter. RIP: subjective analysis.
Do we go back to the McGain argument and say that we can't pay attention to those woeful figures because he doesn't yet have an average? In 38 Tests, Simon Katich boasts a bowling average under 30. Does this put him up there as an elite Australian spin bowler or even one of our great all-rounders?
Since some of the subscibers to this discussion are incapable of perceptive reasoning, would anyone care to enlighten me as to why Hodge is "a dud" having played only 6 Tests for an average of almost 56, backed up by a (prolonged) First Class average of 48?
Maybe Mike Hussey's early inflated average was something to be wary of, and his recent slump proves that the selectors should have got rid of him back then? Or was Mark Waugh's career a sham because his average never got above the low 40's?
Careful, no lying!
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
i for one dont think hodge is a dud, just wrong place, wrong time, wrong state, he wouldve been great for us if he was givin a fair go, but he wasnt, and i dont see the upside of playing him now, just IMO, and you are right about people twisting averages to suit themselves on this forum. lol
i for one dont think hodge is a dud, just wrong place, wrong time, wrong state, he wouldve been great for us if he was givin a fair go, but he wasnt, and i dont see the upside of playing him now, just IMO, and you are right about people twisting averages to suit themselves on this forum. lol
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
its funny how when a NSW batsman has a bad average the selectors seem to forgive them, or if a NSW youngster shows a hint of talent he is str8 into the aussie team, dean jones, brad hodge, darren lehman to name a few wernt givin the same chances. BTW i dont really take notice of any batting average unless its judged on 2000+ runs, iknow people will say lehman only averaged 44, but only 2 not outs in that and he struck at over 60, his 1st class average was a stunning 57, if he was givin the same passage clarke got id love to see what he"s test stats would have been. part time bowler as well.Mousey;340986 said:
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
I hear you. At the risk of repeating myself (another thread, I can't remember!), I have long lamented the fact that some very worthy players have never had a chance. The strength of the Aust team for many years has made getting a spot in the batting line-up a very hard gig indeed. I find it hard to ignore, however, that prospects from NSW have always seemed to find that little window of opportunity.
Lehmann was most unlucky. He would have been a Test great, little doubt. Siddons was stiff too, as were the likes of Law & Cox. At times Hayden, Blewett, Martyn & Langer had to wait. David Hussey may never play a Test, which would be a shame. Hodge & Love barely had a look in. The only NSW bat who comes to mind as being frustrated by non-selection would have been Bevan. His shortcomings were well documented, despite haviing a tremendous domestic record, and would have been better as a "horses for courses" addition to tours to the sub-continent.
distributer of pain;341020 said:
I hear you. At the risk of repeating myself (another thread, I can't remember!), I have long lamented the fact that some very worthy players have never had a chance. The strength of the Aust team for many years has made getting a spot in the batting line-up a very hard gig indeed. I find it hard to ignore, however, that prospects from NSW have always seemed to find that little window of opportunity.
Lehmann was most unlucky. He would have been a Test great, little doubt. Siddons was stiff too, as were the likes of Law & Cox. At times Hayden, Blewett, Martyn & Langer had to wait. David Hussey may never play a Test, which would be a shame. Hodge & Love barely had a look in. The only NSW bat who comes to mind as being frustrated by non-selection would have been Bevan. His shortcomings were well documented, despite haviing a tremendous domestic record, and would have been better as a "horses for courses" addition to tours to the sub-continent.
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
not playing beven in india cost us the series, (i cant remember the exact year, when we made them follow on and lost) very handy wrist spinner, i would say allround level, his wrongon was very hard to pick anyway, yeah, i would have persevered with him for a while longer. they say he couldnt handle the short stuff, he wouldnt get much of that over there, at any great pace anyway. he was also an excellent player of spin, and spin killed us in that series. PS, i wonder how long it"ll be before Usman Khawaja's name starts getting pushed around lol, he is a talent though.
Sober Symonds;341044 said:
not playing beven in india cost us the series, (i cant remember the exact year, when we made them follow on and lost) very handy wrist spinner, i would say allround level, his wrongon was very hard to pick anyway, yeah, i would have persevered with him for a while longer. they say he couldnt handle the short stuff, he wouldnt get much of that over there, at any great pace anyway. he was also an excellent player of spin, and spin killed us in that series. PS, i wonder how long it"ll be before Usman Khawaja's name starts getting pushed around lol, he is a talent though.
hattrick
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
Guys , wow I mean this is a game but why change something when it aint broke.
Michael Clarke, Mike Hussey are having a bad patch.. they happen .. just ask Jacques Kallis. Clarke is a talented player, a future captain in my book. He started like a house on fire against India and then got found out.. that is international cricket. JP Duminy I suspect will be having the same problem.
Michael Hussey is in the same boat..
I am a neutral.. for that matter.. live in another country.. but the fact that these players are being doubted is interesting. I find it interesting for example that Moises Henrique (apologies if incorrect) get fast tracked into the IPL..
On the Siddons, Lehman matter, Hodge for that matter as well , there are only 11 spots in a team.. if there are other players better in your generation then they will play unfortunately.. the are picked a selection committee.. hopefully an uneven number of members. Lehmann also helped Yorkshire in some tough years..
In South Africa, the team has always came from a particular province, a majority always.. so it is not unique, nor is the unhappiness about other players not getting a place.
Ultimately consistency in selection leads to performance..
Guys , wow I mean this is a game but why change something when it aint broke.
Michael Clarke, Mike Hussey are having a bad patch.. they happen .. just ask Jacques Kallis. Clarke is a talented player, a future captain in my book. He started like a house on fire against India and then got found out.. that is international cricket. JP Duminy I suspect will be having the same problem.
Michael Hussey is in the same boat..
I am a neutral.. for that matter.. live in another country.. but the fact that these players are being doubted is interesting. I find it interesting for example that Moises Henrique (apologies if incorrect) get fast tracked into the IPL..
On the Siddons, Lehman matter, Hodge for that matter as well , there are only 11 spots in a team.. if there are other players better in your generation then they will play unfortunately.. the are picked a selection committee.. hopefully an uneven number of members. Lehmann also helped Yorkshire in some tough years..
In South Africa, the team has always came from a particular province, a majority always.. so it is not unique, nor is the unhappiness about other players not getting a place.
Ultimately consistency in selection leads to performance..
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
husseys last 16 test innings. 19,35,0,70,0,8,0,2,30,45,4,0,50,19,20,39, if thats not broke then i dont know what is, theres one score there above his average, and that was against New Zealand, now brad hodge is givin the heave hoe after 11 innings, 60,18,23,41,203*,7,24,6,27*,67,27. hmmm, makes you wonder.
hattrick;341078 said:
husseys last 16 test innings. 19,35,0,70,0,8,0,2,30,45,4,0,50,19,20,39, if thats not broke then i dont know what is, theres one score there above his average, and that was against New Zealand, now brad hodge is givin the heave hoe after 11 innings, 60,18,23,41,203*,7,24,6,27*,67,27. hmmm, makes you wonder.
Kram81
Well-Known Member
el-capitano
Member
Re: Who is hopeless?
I actually said 20 innings is pretty much a standard when you start doing stats like best averages.
Sites like cricinfo's statsguru, wikipedia etc all set out a basis of 20 innings for batting averages. Its pretty common knowledge to those who actually follow the game, but you keep on digging that hole!
By setting a minimum standard you get a more accurate portrayal of the figures and statistical anomalies like Brad Hodge don't get mentioned!
LOL- do you actually ever read anything or just make it up as you go along.Sober Symonds;341005 said:
I actually said 20 innings is pretty much a standard when you start doing stats like best averages.
Sites like cricinfo's statsguru, wikipedia etc all set out a basis of 20 innings for batting averages. Its pretty common knowledge to those who actually follow the game, but you keep on digging that hole!
By setting a minimum standard you get a more accurate portrayal of the figures and statistical anomalies like Brad Hodge don't get mentioned!
Buddy23#
Member
Re: Who is hopeless?
I'm sure Hodge will enjoy looking back on his 6 test career with a average of 56.
Hodge had one soft out against South Africa and they dropped him, never to been see again. Clarke's had 3 or 4 terrible outs to Paul Harris and he's vice captain.el-capitano;341181 said:LOL- do you actually ever read anything or just make it up as you go along.
I actually said 20 innings is pretty much a standard when you start doing stats like best averages.
Sites like cricinfo's statsguru, wikipedia etc all set out a basis of 20 innings for batting averages. Its pretty common knowledge to those who actually follow the game, but you keep on digging that hole!
By setting a minimum standard you get a more accurate portrayal of the figures and statistical anomalies like Brad Hodge don't get mentioned!
I'm sure Hodge will enjoy looking back on his 6 test career with a average of 56.
Buddy23#
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
We're getting caught up in stats here, Hodge is/was a good batter full stop.
Someone Mentioned Mark Waugh's average was low 40's, when I'm old and grey i will still remember some of his shots. One of the most classical batsmen of all time, could watch him bat all day.
We're getting caught up in stats here, Hodge is/was a good batter full stop.
Someone Mentioned Mark Waugh's average was low 40's, when I'm old and grey i will still remember some of his shots. One of the most classical batsmen of all time, could watch him bat all day.
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
yep, he was very easy on the eye, pitty he didnt have his brothers resolve. awesome fielder and handy bowler, his seamers not his offys.Buddy23#;341273 said:
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
Take out Hodge's score of 203 not out and he has a test average of 30. That's hardly a figure which is good enough to retain a test spot. For a guy who has played very well in domestic cricket for his entire career, Hodge has really failed to capitalise on the chances he has been given.
ODI's are much the same, was in reasonable form before the India/Australia serie. His first few innings were poor but was still given an opportunity to prove himself but he didn't improve and was rightly dropped.
Hodge has showed he really isn't good enough at international level. Has been given enough opportunities but hasn't taken them.
Sober Symonds;341005 said:
Take out Hodge's score of 203 not out and he has a test average of 30. That's hardly a figure which is good enough to retain a test spot. For a guy who has played very well in domestic cricket for his entire career, Hodge has really failed to capitalise on the chances he has been given.
ODI's are much the same, was in reasonable form before the India/Australia serie. His first few innings were poor but was still given an opportunity to prove himself but he didn't improve and was rightly dropped.
distributer of pain;341115 said:
Hodge has showed he really isn't good enough at international level. Has been given enough opportunities but hasn't taken them.
distributer of pain
Member
Re: Australian Cricket Team Discussions
the fact is though he did score that 200, and he hasnt been givin the same leeway as some of our NSWs batsman, i dont think he"s test form is that bad allthough its not great, i think we could have givin him a bit more of a go, he did average 60 odd in his last 3 digs.Ljp86;341490 said: